Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump?

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Post by Arquitecto Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:44 am

Gentlemen, be kind as to tell me what is the debate here to its core, and yes I did read above.

Thanks.

(respect for keeping it civil by the way, men)

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Post by Myesyats Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:23 am

My conclusion (take note it's past 2am):

Far-left policies are destructive (as destructive as far-right policies). The best option we have is a capitalist system with broad welfare programs but the system itself must remain capitalistic at its core (private ownership, incentives for innovation and growth, free market, prices determind by supply and demand) and also INDIVIDUAL is more important than COLLECTIVE/GROUP which isn't the case if you consider everyone to be equal. Then the group is more important than the individual.

We have to have a hierarchy because we are biologically predisposed for it as human beings. Therefore we have to work in order to function properly within the hierarchy, and not rebel in pursuit of overthrowing it. And we need to make sure it's a hierarchy of competence, keep ourselves in check. If there's no hierarchy and no opposition, there's no questioning of your actions and that leads to destruction, which happens both on far-right and far-left.

What's also crucial is this: the existence and flaws of hierarchies are not a product of capitalism, they're much deeper because hierarchies existed way before capitalism did, they're biologically a part of human nature.
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Post by sportsczy Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:42 am

Arquitecto wrote:Gentlemen, be kind as to tell me what is the debate here to its core, and yes I did read above.

Thanks.

(respect for keeping it civil by the way, men)

It's the old far-left v far-right debate...  extreme idealism v extreme capitalism.  IMO both are equally destructive.  The solution is to allow for compromise (go to the center)...  good ideas on both sides (and others); why not take the best ideas and put them together if possible.

It then became a pissing contest of which dogma caused the most destruction.

Another good example of why there's so much division as everyone things they're absolutely right and won't allow for new ideas to enter their thinking.

I'll add that Bernie Sanders is an ideologue, not a leader. He was never able to achieve anything as a congressman just like he can't take a step forward as a presidential candidate. The reason being is that he can't create practical applications to his ideology.... perhaps figuring out intermediate steps that lead to the ultimate goal, but allow for an achievable transition.

That's the gist of it.
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Post by Myesyats Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:28 pm

It started out by my concerns as to where we draw the line on the left, meaning where does left become too far left.

Because it is easy to say "Oh, they're Nazis, we shouldn't listen to them" even if the right leans just a little bit further to the right than usual. But nobody responds to marxism and communism in the same way as to nazism, and they ABSOLUTELY should.

Attacking free market economy is too far left in economic policies.
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Post by VivaStPauli Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:55 pm

I'm not going to get bogged down in the details of this, because I know you guys and me disagree on the distinctions of social democracy in the European mold, Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism and Maoism etc, so let's not have that debate again.

But you guys have to admit, when you talk about far left vs far right, in other parts of the world, outside the US (for example, in Europe) what constitutes the "far left" of America would barely register as center left. Meaning, even if you're (especially fiscally) more conservative, and prefer the solutions to economic problems offered up by that ideology - might you at least agree with me that there's evidence from European economies that what is regarded as "far left" in America has been safely practiced here for decades, been called "center left" or "centrist", and has succeeded in France, Germany, and Scandinavia, off the top of my hat?

I know people like Sanders have historically not had much clout in America, but objectively there could reasonably someone even left of Sanders who would still not usher in an anti-capitalist revolution, right? There's tons of room to the left of moderate Democrats, for example, where ideas about social equality can live in peace, without anyone disowning the elites, or abolishing the principles of market economy - can we have consent on this?

Edit: You're allowed to agree with me and still not want it, without me calling you a hypocrite. Just trying to find out where this debate can go.
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Post by Myesyats Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:42 pm

Agreed to an extent, but Bernie's propositions are not the same as the Nordic model which is firmly rooted in capitalism.

Bernie and AOC like to flaunt about Scandinavia as a prime example but they don't take into account a variety of circumstances in which these countries differ from America and how their model isn't exactly what Sanders has ultimately in mind.

1. Sanders brags that his universal health-care plan eliminates patient cost-sharing. But Scandinavia has it.
2. Sanders wants to raise a lot of revenue through heavy taxes on business and investment. Scandinavia doesn't.
3. Sanders has a big problem with billionaires. Scandinavia doesn't. The egalitarian Nordic nations have as many billionaires, relatively, as the US and more concentrated wealth, at least as measured by the share of wealth controlled by the top 10 percent. (aei.org)

So when Sanders says "the revolution is not over", I'm not entirely sure what he means by that. Because Scandinavian countries weren't revolutionized, they have reformed their policies gradually for decades.
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Post by Pedram Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:13 pm

Where do you get this idea that Bernie is going to overthrow capitalism if he becomes president? he calls himself a socialist because that's his brand, he's nothing more than a run-of-the-mill social Democrat.


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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:16 pm

Agreed with Myesyats. Sanders in some instances seems to me to the left of social democrats of Western European and Nordic countries, at least in terms of rhetoric. Sanders feeds off a populist "revolution", where he encourages class warfare and division. He criticizes Warren (who ran on an almost identical platform) for being a "capitalist", in spite of the fact that every social democrat recognizes that capitalism has an important role to play for the system to be work as it should.

In terms of what he wants to do, sure, public access to universities and healthcare are social democrat staples, no argument there. But he has successfully moved the party to the left and hopefully the US will get there at some point sooner than later.


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Post by sportsczy Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:36 pm

@VivaStPauli...  agreed.  But I don't like the comparison.  You have to apply cultural relativism.  Europe could never "become" like the US and, similarly the US cannot "become" like Europe.  Very different histories, culture, set of circumstances, etc.  

That doesn't mean, however, that you can't adapt good ideas from both that fit the local circumstance.  But our politicians are too lazy for that.

It always made me laugh when the West would say "we want to bring democracy to the world" in regards to the middle east and north Africa.  It completely disregards the facts on the ground... namely, are the foundations of democracy there or do you need to build them, do the local people want western-style democracy and, more importantly, is it even feasible?  Arrogant nonsense mostly.  You build towards that kind of fundamental change... you can't just drop it on people and hope they figure it out.  You're asking for disaster.

In any case, universal free education and healthcare are absolutely right.  But how do you implement that?  Do you have state universities that you can attend for fee?  Those already exist in California and many states btw.  Tuition for University of California schools (like UCLA) is 11k, which, if your parents are beneath an income bracket, is completely covered by a state grant.  If you cant' qualify to get into a UC school, there are state schools (like Long Beach State) and community colleges.

The problem is that people want schools like Stanford and Harvard to be free.  Well, that's never going to happen. The reason they are such great universities is that government isn't involved to screw them up. Leave them alone.
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Post by Arquitecto Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:32 pm

Thanks for the well-versed summaries, Myestats and Sports Thumbs up


I generally don't agree with Viva's political views but I do appreciate the distinctions he made as by this point of society it is far too less nuanced to have a Capitalism v Communism debate given both ideologies are heart do make sense, but Capitalism does have better results and encourages enterprise, freedom yet is marred by certain large entities.

Entities that stranglehold it to their favour to their benefit and enough regulation does not exist to prevent that.

Communism may have its distinctions yet not a country beyond small banana republics exist where it can be a stable principle for when harmony is met, it inevitably will turn into the (variances) of Communism that have reared its ugly head time and time again.

Capitalism is NOT evil. We have to understand what constitutes the reasons behind its cons rather than outright dispelling it as evil or immoral.


Similar to the morons who call Money as the root of all evil from their own bullshit narrative fallacies.


Not being a fence-sitter here by any means (hate that) but great points above, either way.
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Post by El Gunner Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:51 pm

Arq wrote:Capitalism is NOT evil. We have to understand what constitutes the reasons behind its cons rather than outright dispelling it as evil or immoral.


Similar to the morons who call Money as the root of all evil from their own bullshit narrative fallacies.

you couldn't be any more wrong, and you only say this because you most probably have had it relatively easy your entire life.

Most of you capitalist sympathisers get caught up in the details of the past, and therefore cannot see the vision and potential of a global communist land.

just remember what i said a few posts back.. one day, if not already, you're gunna sit reflecting on your life, experiences and everything you've done and you're gunna feel it was all meaningless and fake because there's still a huge empty hole deep inside of you. And that's because of the system we live in - it treats us like disposable slave shits and nothing more
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Post by Myesyats Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:19 pm

Thanks to capitalism if you earn $32k a year you are part of the 1% worldwide. (the 1% that Bernie keeps crying about)

You live a privileged life in comparison with anyone living EVER in the entire history of the human race. How about some respect?
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Post by elitedam Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:00 pm

Myesyats wrote:Thanks to capitalism if you earn $32k a year you are part of the 1% worldwide.


That sounds wrong. Median wage in the US for a full time worker is almost 50k.
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Post by Myesyats Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:09 pm

A $32,400 annual income will easily place American school teachers, registered nurses, and other modestly-salaried individuals, among the global 1% of earners.


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Post by elitedam Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:24 pm

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf

Not according to the US department of labor.

Median wage for full time workers is around 48k. There are 118 million full time workers in the US, so 59 million of them make more than 48k. And that's just in the US.

The 32.4k looks way too low.
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Post by Blue Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:29 pm

elitedam wrote:https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf

Not according to the US department of labor.

Median wage for full time workers is around 48k. There are 118 million full time workers in the US, so 59 million of them make more than 48k. And that's just in the US.

The 32.4k looks way too low.


He is shifting the focus to the world not US. Around 2 billion people around the world live in extreme poverty. So he is right, but misleading since there huge issues with such focus.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:35 pm

Myesyats wrote:A $32,400 annual income will easily place American school teachers, registered nurses, and other modestly-salaried individuals, among the global 1% of earners.


registered nurses can easily clear 100k where I live

elitedam wrote:https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf

Not according to the US department of labor.

Median wage for full time workers is around 48k. There are 118 million full time workers in the US, so 59 million of them make more than 48k. And that's just in the US.

The 32.4k looks way too low.
the median worldwide income is 10k USD per household. I can believe that 32k is enough to be in the top 1%
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Post by elitedam Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:52 pm

There are 7.6 billion people in the world. That's everyone, not just workers. One percent of that is 76 million. In the US alone, there are 59 million who make more than 48k. That's not even counting the high earners from the rest of the world. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Either the US department of labor is wrong or 32k is way too low.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:09 pm

Having thought on it some more I can't find any reliable sources for that 32k number. Agreed that it's probably too low, but I think the true number would probably surprise many of Bernie's supporters, which was myesyat's larger point.
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Post by Blue Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:18 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Having thought on it some more I can't find any reliable sources for that 32k number. Agreed that it's probably too low, but I think the true number would probably surprise many of Bernie's supporters, which was myesyat's larger point.


I don't think Bernie supporters ever cared or focused on the %1 of the world.

Such focus is the equivalent of telling a homeless man in the US, of how every 10 second a child in the world dies of starvation or dehydration. Sure he should be more grateful i guess.

I do not think 32k is too low, i fully comprehend that much of the world is dirt poor and/or lack of focus in their society on currency.

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Post by Arquitecto Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:14 pm

El Gunner wrote:
Arq wrote:Capitalism is NOT evil. We have to understand what constitutes the reasons behind its cons rather than outright dispelling it as evil or immoral.


Similar to the morons who call Money as the root of all evil from their own bullshit narrative fallacies.

you couldn't be any more wrong, and you only say this because you most probably have had it relatively easy your entire life.

Most of you capitalist sympathisers get caught up in the details of the past, and therefore cannot see the vision and potential of a global communist land.

just remember what i said a few posts back.. one day, if not already, you're gunna sit reflecting on your life, experiences and everything you've done and you're gunna feel it was all meaningless and fake because there's still a huge empty hole deep inside of you. And that's because of the system we live in - it treats us like disposable slave shits and nothing more



I do like you so going to take this the way of more constructive discourse.


You can assume that my life is easy therefore it conflates with my view of capitalism even if that is a completely statement to say simply whether speculated or accused of.


The rest I might add, sad to say is just as if not more fallacious statement given its yet again a narrative fallacy.


Capitalism and or money is the root of all evil is a statement made either by:

1. The poor rationalising their lack of monies who also usually happen to think "the rich" usually get their way to where they are by cheating, lying or some swindling.  Generalisation aside these types exist and pass on such terrible knowledge to their own children.

2. To ones who simply do not understand how the world works, unpredictable as it is.

3. Prefer to see the world how they 'feel' it should be, and not what it is

4. Moan about their misfortune rather than you know, understanding the countless opportunities that exist to lead a wealthy life unless one's circumstances are so paltry and or dire or crippled.


Capitalism is for the ones who choose to not let the world influence them but influence how the world, influences themselves.


Communists have the right idea but we all know many of them believe in such an ideology simply because they want to discredit the ones who have earned their own living and wealth by the sweat of their brow.

Relying upon the state and welfare to have them survive.

Keyword: Many, not all.


Sports I know will agree with this given his general experience with these types and clearly worked or did a lot of stuff with some jackals in Wall Street based on his knowledge.


The world is indifferent so resorting to terms such as evil etc once again, is baseless.. Capitalism is used improperly and has the propensity be used wayward as we are not pointing out the factors on why, it has caused some injustice yet it has nothing to do with its base-rate ideology.



I used to think the same way similar to my overly-romantasized view that footballers should stay loyal to their club and not go for money (to set themselves for life) and or a money club for higher chances to cement their legacy.


Same goes with enterprise to make money to create two of the best things of all time:

Opportunity & Freedom.


Humanity has a great tendency to believe in ideologies simply to suit their own personal narrative hence why they appeal to emotion and preach their subjective drivel.

And on the long run to their children or the more impressionable, that is dangerous.


Victimization of oneself or playing victim, is by far the worse thing a man/woman can do themselves as I assure anyone who disagrees with that, that it will cripple you inside out.
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Post by Myesyats Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:20 pm

Data might be a little dodgy but you get the point.

I'm pretty sure if you earn $32k you are at least part of the 4%. Now that's not 1% but it's still pretty darn tight (I think it was about 1% around 2008 but I'm not sure)

Point taken though, wherever you travel as an American, you are the king. Blame the goshdarn evil capitalism, I tell ya!

Go buy the communist manifesto, you are privileged beyond belief.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:12 am

Power... and those with the desire to gain as much of it as possible at whatever the cost... corrupts.  This hold true anywhere under any system.  The difference with capitalism is that it's not stagnant.  Since there are incentives to become better, smarter, more innovative, etc., it leads to evolution.  In pure socialism, what are the incentives?  None.

In terms of effectiveness...  capitalist countries will always put communist ones out of business.  Every time.  Recent examples are the USSR, Eastern Europe, Venezuela, Argentina, etc.  Literally drive them to bankruptcy.

They can't compete, especially in the global market today, because supply and demand pressures don't force them to improve and adjust... and eventually, nobody buys their stuff because capitalist countries just produce better products at better prices.

The best system, imo, is to marry socialist concepts necessary to support people sufficiently with a capitalist society.  Best of both worlds.  Best scaled examples are Germany and China (yes, China is a combo of communism with capitalism).
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Post by Myesyats Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:37 am

Despite having worlds largest proven oil reserves (which used to be state-controlled), Venezuela is now completely reliant on foreign private enterprise in order to function. The ultimate irony.
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Post by rincon Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:53 am

Venezuela is the ultimate example of irony, of how power hungry people can be, and of how much of a tragedy communism is.
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Post by El Gunner Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:05 am

sports wrote:In terms of effectiveness... capitalist countries will always put communist ones out of business. Every time. Recent examples are the USSR, Eastern Europe, Venezuela, Argentina, etc. Literally drive them to bankruptcy.

exactly, and that's why communism hasnt been done right yet. It needs to be a global act.

sports wrote:Since there are incentives to become better, smarter, more innovative, etc., it leads to evolution. In pure socialism, what are the incentives? None.

collectivist ideals. working for the community, making art for community, taking a sense of pride in community, creating a culture and legacy and histories out of community
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