Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump?

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Post by McLewis Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:38 pm

I'm not sure I buy the low young voter turnout narrative just yet. Not with stories like this making the rounds:



This guy is obviously not 18-29, however this looks like a case of clear voter suppression. It impacts communities of color and therefore young people of color.

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Post by Art Morte Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:03 pm

Biden is a has-been without personality, he better win the politics battle against Trump because he's not going to charm anyone.

Seems to me like Americans are ready to daydream about Sanders and his politics, but they're not yet ready to make it reality. Change can be scary.
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Post by Freeza Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:12 pm

Art Morte wrote:Biden is a has-been without personality, he better win the politics battle against Trump because he's not going to charm anyone.

Seems to me like Americans are ready to daydream about Sanders and his politics, but they're not yet ready to make it reality. Change can be scary.


He’s got no charm and no one knows what his politics are because he’s lying so much about them.

Everyone knows what Trump stands for.

Biden’s got a rough road ahead of him if he wants to win on his politics lol. He can only name drop Obama that many times before people get tired of it.
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Post by Young Kaz Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:29 pm

Bernie doesnt have any charm either tbh.

Its easy to promise people free shit. Harder to get things done....hence why he has accomplished nothing in congress outside of voting for Biden's crime bill, and naming some post offices.

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Post by Myesyats Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:31 pm

Young Kaz wrote:
People who "Lean to the left" dont cheer for a guy who thinks abortion should be illegal over a guy like biden hmm

Nothing is ever as simple. 2+2 equals 4 only in maths, not in human relations or politics.

I dont cheer for Trump, i think he;s an idiot. But Biden may be even dumber and also senile which Trump isn't yet.

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Post by Young Kaz Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:35 pm

Myesyats wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
People who "Lean to the left" dont cheer for a guy who thinks abortion should be illegal over a guy like biden hmm

Nothing is ever as simple. 2+2 equals 4 only in maths, not in human relations or politics.

I dont cheer for Trump, i think he;s an idiot. But Biden may be even dumber and also senile which Trump isn't yet.


You said you'd "root" for Trump over biden if you were American.

Theres a pretty clear line between those two. One wants to cut federal healthcare funding to california because they have legal abortions. The other is a pretty consistent moderate democrat who is prone to the occasional(although becoming more consistent) gaffe.

Picking Trump over him is a sign of a person who leans, if not is, conservative.

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Post by Art Morte Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:37 pm

Young Kaz wrote:Bernie doesnt have any charm either tbh.

Its easy to promise people free shit. Harder to get things done....hence why he has accomplished nothing in congress outside of voting for Biden's crime bill, and naming some post offices.


Bernie is genuine and I think that goes a long way. Biden comes across as one of those calculative politicians who try to say all the right things while failing to convince you that they are his true beliefs and values.
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Post by Young Kaz Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:42 pm

Art Morte wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:Bernie doesnt have any charm either tbh.

Its easy to promise people free shit. Harder to get things done....hence why he has accomplished nothing in congress outside of voting for Biden's crime bill, and naming some post offices.


Bernie is genuine and I think that goes a long way. Biden comes across as one of those calculative politicians who try to say all the right things while failing to convince you that they are his true beliefs and values.


Bernie has one stomping point that he constantly brings up. It makes him appear more consistent than the average politician.

Same way people think the wasteman Yang is also consistent. Everything comes back to UBI and automation with him. Same way everything comes back to the "Billionaires" and Corporations with sanders. You can have a drinking game with Sanders and end up killing yourself with alcohol poison.

Every problem will come back to the corporations and wall street.

Good for narrowing in a space, bad for expanding it in places or with people who dont have a hate boner for the American corporation.

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Post by McLewis Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:15 pm

Young Kaz wrote:
Art Morte wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:Bernie doesnt have any charm either tbh.

Its easy to promise people free shit. Harder to get things done....hence why he has accomplished nothing in congress outside of voting for Biden's crime bill, and naming some post offices.


Bernie is genuine and I think that goes a long way. Biden comes across as one of those calculative politicians who try to say all the right things while failing to convince you that they are his true beliefs and values.


Bernie has one stomping point that he constantly brings up. It makes him appear more consistent than the average politician.

Same way people think the wasteman Yang is also consistent. Everything comes back to UBI and automation with him. Same way everything comes back to the "Billionaires" and Corporations with sanders. You can have a drinking game with Sanders and end up killing yourself with alcohol poison.

Every problem will come back to the corporations and wall street.

Good for narrowing in a space, bad for expanding it in places or with people who dont have a hate boner for the American corporation.


What Bernie says about billionaires and corporations is true though. He's speaking facts on that topic that I don't think are up for dispute. The problem is that speaking facts to people who vote on feelings and emotion is a non-starter. We saw that in 2016.

Bernie has a messaging problem with older, more moderate generations that have benefited from the crumbs given to them by billionaires and corporations. His message resonates with younger generations because so many of them have not benefited in the way their parents and grandparents have. Bernie has to find a way to get older generations to see that they could and should be benefiting even more from progressive policies than they have under establishment (read: conservative) policies.

He's in trouble right now because his messaging is far too narrow and his base is shrinking rather than expanding because of it.
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Post by Young Kaz Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:35 pm

McLewis wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
Art Morte wrote:

Bernie is genuine and I think that goes a long way. Biden comes across as one of those calculative politicians who try to say all the right things while failing to convince you that they are his true beliefs and values.


Bernie has one stomping point that he constantly brings up. It makes him appear more consistent than the average politician.

Same way people think the wasteman Yang is also consistent. Everything comes back to UBI and automation with him. Same way everything comes back to the "Billionaires" and Corporations with sanders. You can have a drinking game with Sanders and end up killing yourself with alcohol poison.

Every problem will come back to the corporations and wall street.

Good for narrowing in a space, bad for expanding it in places or with people who dont have a hate boner for the American corporation.


What Bernie says about billionaires and corporations is true though. He's speaking facts on that topic that I don't think are up for dispute. The problem is that speaking facts to people who vote on feelings and emotion is a non-starter. We saw that in 2016.

Bernie has a messaging problem with older, more moderate generations that have benefited from the crumbs given to them by billionaires and corporations. His message resonates with younger generations because so many of them have not benefited in the way their parents and grandparents have. Bernie has to find a way to get older generations to see that they could and should be benefiting even more from progressive policies than they have under establishment (read: conservative) policies.

He's in trouble right now because his messaging is far too narrow and his base is shrinking rather than expanding because of it.


Sounds like hes a poor candidate from what you say, and you're right.

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Post by Pedram Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:55 pm



I disagree with Tucker Carlson on pretty much everything but i have to admit it's amazing that you can get a more honest and truthful punditry from your ideological enemy than the MSNBC and CNN combined.
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Post by McLewis Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:26 pm

Young Kaz wrote:
McLewis wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
Art Morte wrote:

Bernie is genuine and I think that goes a long way. Biden comes across as one of those calculative politicians who try to say all the right things while failing to convince you that they are his true beliefs and values.


Bernie has one stomping point that he constantly brings up. It makes him appear more consistent than the average politician.

Same way people think the wasteman Yang is also consistent. Everything comes back to UBI and automation with him. Same way everything comes back to the "Billionaires" and Corporations with sanders. You can have a drinking game with Sanders and end up killing yourself with alcohol poison.

Every problem will come back to the corporations and wall street.

Good for narrowing in a space, bad for expanding it in places or with people who dont have a hate boner for the American corporation.


What Bernie says about billionaires and corporations is true though. He's speaking facts on that topic that I don't think are up for dispute. The problem is that speaking facts to people who vote on feelings and emotion is a non-starter. We saw that in 2016.

Bernie has a messaging problem with older, more moderate generations that have benefited from the crumbs given to them by billionaires and corporations. His message resonates with younger generations because so many of them have not benefited in the way their parents and grandparents have. Bernie has to find a way to get older generations to see that they could and should be benefiting even more from progressive policies than they have under establishment (read: conservative) policies.

He's in trouble right now because his messaging is far too narrow and his base is shrinking rather than expanding because of it.


Sounds like hes a poor candidate from what you say, and you're right.


And yet I will vote for him next Tuesday as I don't see a return to the same establishment policies that got us Trump as acceptable. I know that's what's likely going to happen, but I still disagree with it.

Bernie's message is a good one. His movement is a good one. He's just not the one meant to lead it.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:39 pm

Young Kaz wrote:Its a pretty damning indictment on 18-29 year olds though.

Sanders promised them the moon(student debt cancellation, free college) and they STILL didnt show up. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Its quite amazing really.

Glad I turned 30 last year and left that demographic.

That's because most of the best universities are private... nothing Bernie or any politician can do about them.

And by the way, my alma mater USC (University of Southern California) has implemented a policy this coming year that all students whose parents' combined annual income is $60k or less... don't pay tuition. One of the few things I've liked about USC recently. Good for them (finally).
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Post by Young Kaz Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:58 pm

sportsczy wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:Its a pretty damning indictment on 18-29 year olds though.

Sanders promised them the moon(student debt cancellation, free college) and they STILL didnt show up. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Its quite amazing really.

Glad I turned 30 last year and left that demographic.

That's because most of the best universities are private... nothing Bernie or any politician can do about them.

And by the way, my alma mater USC (University of Southern California) has implemented a policy this coming year that all students whose parents' combined annual income is $60k or less... don't pay tuition. One of the few things I've liked about USC recently. Good for them (finally).


USC has an estimated cost of attendance of 77k per year. only rich kids go there so I'd imagine the kids coming from incomes less than 60k is negligible. Any poor kid with the ability to get in there will pay 30-40k less and just go to UCLA(if they are an instate student).

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Post by Young Kaz Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:04 pm

Elizabeth Warren drops out.

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Post by Freeza Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:06 pm

McLewis wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
McLewis wrote:

What Bernie says about billionaires and corporations is true though. He's speaking facts on that topic that I don't think are up for dispute. The problem is that speaking facts to people who vote on feelings and emotion is a non-starter. We saw that in 2016.

Bernie has a messaging problem with older, more moderate generations that have benefited from the crumbs given to them by billionaires and corporations. His message resonates with younger generations because so many of them have not benefited in the way their parents and grandparents have. Bernie has to find a way to get older generations to see that they could and should be benefiting even more from progressive policies than they have under establishment (read: conservative) policies.

He's in trouble right now because his messaging is far too narrow and his base is shrinking rather than expanding because of it.


Sounds like hes a poor candidate from what you say, and you're right.


And yet I will vote for him next Tuesday as I don't see a return to the same establishment policies that got us Trump as acceptable. I know that's what's likely going to happen, but I still disagree with it.

Bernie's message is a good one. His movement is a good one. He's just not the one meant to lead it.


This is point that confuses me so much about anti-trumpers who want to go back to Obama-era policy like they aren’t what let you Trump getting elected in the first place
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Post by Blue Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:12 pm

McLewis wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
McLewis wrote:

What Bernie says about billionaires and corporations is true though. He's speaking facts on that topic that I don't think are up for dispute. The problem is that speaking facts to people who vote on feelings and emotion is a non-starter. We saw that in 2016.

Bernie has a messaging problem with older, more moderate generations that have benefited from the crumbs given to them by billionaires and corporations. His message resonates with younger generations because so many of them have not benefited in the way their parents and grandparents have. Bernie has to find a way to get older generations to see that they could and should be benefiting even more from progressive policies than they have under establishment (read: conservative) policies.

He's in trouble right now because his messaging is far too narrow and his base is shrinking rather than expanding because of it.


Sounds like hes a poor candidate from what you say, and you're right.


And yet I will vote for him next Tuesday as I don't see a return to the same establishment policies that got us Trump as acceptable. I know that's what's likely going to happen, but I still disagree with it.

Bernie's message is a good one. His movement is a good one. He's just not the one meant to lead it.


It will be interesting to see who leads the movement in the future.
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Post by Freeza Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:14 pm

AOC is obviously the one to lead the movement in some way.
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Post by CBarca Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:10 pm

Art Morte wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:Bernie doesnt have any charm either tbh.

Its easy to promise people free shit. Harder to get things done....hence why he has accomplished nothing in congress outside of voting for Biden's crime bill, and naming some post offices.


Bernie is genuine and I think that goes a long way. Biden comes across as one of those calculative politicians who try to say all the right things while failing to convince you that they are his true beliefs and values.


You might think that but Americans don't.

Biden is one of the more genuine political faces of the last 20-30 years in America. Remember the whole "Scranton is a hell hole" bit from SNL during the 2012 election? His whole bit is being a hard-working Dem from a hard-working, downtrodden city in PA.

His time with Obama only made him more likeable. Then the tragedy with his son.

People like Joe Biden.
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Post by McLewis Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:16 pm

Freeza wrote:
McLewis wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
McLewis wrote:

What Bernie says about billionaires and corporations is true though. He's speaking facts on that topic that I don't think are up for dispute. The problem is that speaking facts to people who vote on feelings and emotion is a non-starter. We saw that in 2016.  

Bernie has a messaging problem with older, more moderate generations that have benefited from the crumbs given to them by billionaires and corporations. His message resonates with younger generations because so many of them have not benefited in the way their parents and grandparents have. Bernie has to find a way to get older generations to see that they could and should be benefiting even more from progressive policies than they have under establishment (read: conservative) policies.

He's in trouble right now because his messaging is far too narrow and his base is shrinking rather than expanding because of it.


Sounds like hes a poor candidate from what you say, and you're right.


And yet I will vote for him next Tuesday as I don't see a return to the same establishment policies that got us Trump as acceptable. I know that's what's likely going to happen, but I still disagree with it.

Bernie's message is a good one. His movement is a good one. He's just not the one meant to lead it.


This is point that confuses me so much about anti-trumpers who want to go back to Obama-era policy like they aren’t what let you Trump getting elected in the first place

There is something powerful about familiarity in times of crisis. Biden represents familiarity. Bernie represents the unknown and people fear the unknown naturally, even irrationally. US politics are decided by fear of the unknown and a comfort in the familiar. It has been this way for centuries and until the right generations rises (I don't think we're that generation) it will continue that way.

Blue wrote:
McLewis wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
McLewis wrote:

What Bernie says about billionaires and corporations is true though. He's speaking facts on that topic that I don't think are up for dispute. The problem is that speaking facts to people who vote on feelings and emotion is a non-starter. We saw that in 2016.  

Bernie has a messaging problem with older, more moderate generations that have benefited from the crumbs given to them by billionaires and corporations. His message resonates with younger generations because so many of them have not benefited in the way their parents and grandparents have. Bernie has to find a way to get older generations to see that they could and should be benefiting even more from progressive policies than they have under establishment (read: conservative) policies.

He's in trouble right now because his messaging is far too narrow and his base is shrinking rather than expanding because of it.


Sounds like hes a poor candidate from what you say, and you're right.


And yet I will vote for him next Tuesday as I don't see a return to the same establishment policies that got us Trump as acceptable. I know that's what's likely going to happen, but I still disagree with it.

Bernie's message is a good one. His movement is a good one. He's just not the one meant to lead it.


It will be interesting to see who leads the movement in the future.

They need someone that embodies everything that the movement Bernie started stands for while being politically savvy enough to maneuver with, around and if needed, through, moderates and the establishment. Bernie is not savvy enough politically do this and neither are the Squad (save perhaps Ayanna Pressley).

I like the look of Reps like Ro Khanna and Pramila Jayapal. They, along with Pressley, are the closest I can think of.

Freeza wrote:AOC is obviously the one to lead the movement in some way.

She is far too polarizing at this point. She's a lightning rod and a rallying cry to the right as well as the Democrat establishment in far less progressive areas of the country. Same with Tlaib and Omar.

One thing I've paid attention to is that several high profile down ballot races were lost by candidates that AOC endorsed and campaigned for. Perhaps the most high-profile was Jessica Cisneros, a 26-year old immigration and human rights lawyer who challenged 8-year Democrat establishment incumbent Henry Cuellar for his seat in the House. Cuellar won 51% to Cisneros' 48%. What was interesting about this is that Cuellar, despite being a Democrat, voted 68% of the time with Trump Republicans, is one of the last Democrats in Congress to be anti-abortion and holds an A rating from the NRA. It's definitively a DINO and yet he beat a very progressive candidate who had endorsements from not only AOC, but Bernie, Elizabeth Warren and a slew of other progressive causes, papers, and figures. What tipped the scales is that the DCCC poured in a ton of money Cuellar's way to get him re-elected. Nancy Pelosi herself endorsed him, which was likely the deciding factor to last-minute voters.

This may very well play out again and again in red districts held by Democrats in November. AOC herself is facing a primary challenge as well, though she is expected to win it easily as well as her general election to keep her seat blue as well.

She's polarizing to the right the same way Obama was polarizing when he was campaigning on behalf of candidates, who later lost. This also happened with Trump as well, who obviously is more polarizing than both.
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Post by CBarca Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:18 pm

sportsczy wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:Its a pretty damning indictment on 18-29 year olds though.

Sanders promised them the moon(student debt cancellation, free college) and they STILL didnt show up. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Its quite amazing really.

Glad I turned 30 last year and left that demographic.

That's because most of the best universities are private... nothing Bernie or any politician can do about them.

And by the way, my alma mater USC (University of Southern California) has implemented a policy this coming year that all students whose parents' combined annual income is $60k or less... don't pay tuition. One of the few things I've liked about USC recently. Good for them (finally).


USC alum huh? Nice. My brother is there for his residency (medical) right now.
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Post by Freeza Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:27 pm

@McLewis

A lightning rod is needed for any progress to be made. If the Overton window starts with Biden and ends with Far right republicans nothing will ever happen.

It’s also hard to see any progressive not being polarising considering how brainwashed Americans are about welfare.

One thing I’d want is for the “democrats socialists” to call themselves what they actually are. Social Democrats.

AOC is doing that in some cases by calling them FDR democrats, which is the way to go.
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Post by McLewis Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:51 pm

I don't disagree with you, Freeza.

I like AOC quite a bit. I like the Squad in general. Tlaib can be very much a loose cannon, but her heart is in the right place in everything she does. I'm proud that she represents this state.
If any of them were in my district, they'd have my vote without hesitation.

The reality is that once AOC and other progressives steps outside of progressive friendly areas of the country, their popularity plummets almost instantly.  They are seen as radical firebrands for honestly wanting basic stuff that gets taken for granted by those far more privileged. They're not radical in the least bit to me. They're only radical the parts of the political spectrum that have a bit of ideological distance from them.

The reality is that AOC may very well be Bernie's heir to the movement and if that's the case, I'm all for it. What I'm saying is that will likely cause moderates not to lean in and try to collaborate with her, but to shrink back and stop her, just as Cuellar did with Cisneros, just as they're doing with Bernie. It's almost political 2nd nature at this point to stomp out progressive policy from both the moderate and conservative ends of the spectrum. It's a wonder Roe v Wade has survived as long as it has and even that is under serious attack from the conservative Supreme Court.

Unless she's able to package the movement Bernie started in way that encourages collaboration and not default tribalism, she will be no better a leader of this movement than he is. My feeling is that she can succeed where he fails as she's learning quickly how to navigate Congress. More experienced progressive Reps like Khanna and Jayapal are excellent allies for her.

As for the styling of ideology - I'd say that FDR Democrat resonates a lot better than Social Democrat. "Social" has become a real misnomer politically. It's not political anathema like "communist", but it's approaching that territory. Progressives need to stay away from it.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:29 pm

McLewis wrote:So I won't be in town next week for the Michigan Primary, but will be submitting an absentee vote.

I know for sure I'm not voting for Biden. A month ago, I would've said Warren likely had my vote for sure, but I'm bothered by her inability to see the bigger picture, swallow her pride and dislike for Bernie, and get behind him to bolster his support as the progressive answer to Biden. And I say this as someone who believes she's the better overall candidate than Bernie.

As such, it looks like I'll be voting Bernie. It will be an unenthusiastic vote for Bernie, but a vote for Bernie nonetheless.

Biden's currently ahead of him by 7 points here so he needs every vote he can get if he wants our 125 delegates. I expect Detroit to come out strong for Biden though.


Well done, good decision.
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Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump? - Page 10 Empty Re: Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump?

Post by Blue Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:08 pm

One person who has not being mentioned is Keith Ellison, i think he is very political savey and very good candidate to move the movement forth. But being Black, Muslim, and democratic socialist might be a little too much to overcome.
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Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump? - Page 10 Empty Re: Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump?

Post by Blue Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:21 pm

You can win as an outsider or as a insider. The ideas are not the problem, in fact Bernie Sanders ideas are polling very well. So one could present themselves as the center, if your ideas have overwhelmingly support then by definition you are the center.
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Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump? - Page 10 Empty Re: Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump?

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