Re: The Death Penalty Debate

by Unique Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:59 am

McLewis wrote:
Unique wrote:man you cant rehabiitate a pedo a rapist or a serial killer. thats like saying you can rehabilitate a gay person into being strait. and i dont care what you say it is not cheaper to lock a man up for life than it is to kill him. thats just dumb and crazy.

Myth 1: A death sentence costs less than a life sentence
It seems like common sense that it’s cheaper to execute someone than to house, feed and take care of them for the rest of their natural life. But there are a lot of unavoidable costs that make a death sentence far more expensive than a sentence of life without parole.

Most of these costs result from the unique status of the death penalty within the US justice system. Because it’s the only truly irreversible form of punishment, the Constitution requires a long and complex judicial process for capital cases, including several levels of mandatory review after a death sentence is issued. The appeals process takes decades to complete.

Studies of the California death penalty system, the largest in the US, have revealed that a death sentence costs at least 18 times as much as a sentence of life without parole would cost.

My source: https://deathpenalty.org/facts/5-myths-death-penalty/

As for rehabilitation, we have absolutely no idea what's truly possible because no serious effort or infrastructure has been put in place to give it a serious try. If it fails (and there's every chance it could) then fine, but we haven't even tried. That bothers me.

so who do you think can be rehabilitated. a strait man will always be attracted to women. a gay man will always be attracted to a man and a pedo will always go after children so the chances of making a pedo stop going after children is the same as trying to stop strait men from being attracted to women or a gay man being attracted to men. some people can not be rehabilitated

by McLewis Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:14 pm

Unique wrote:
McLewis wrote:
Unique wrote:man you cant rehabiitate a pedo a rapist or a serial killer. thats like saying you can rehabilitate a gay person into being strait. and i dont care what you say it is not cheaper to lock a man up for life than it is to kill him. thats just dumb and crazy.

Myth 1: A death sentence costs less than a life sentence
It seems like common sense that it’s cheaper to execute someone than to house, feed and take care of them for the rest of their natural life. But there are a lot of unavoidable costs that make a death sentence far more expensive than a sentence of life without parole.

Most of these costs result from the unique status of the death penalty within the US justice system. Because it’s the only truly irreversible form of punishment, the Constitution requires a long and complex judicial process for capital cases, including several levels of mandatory review after a death sentence is issued. The appeals process takes decades to complete.

Studies of the California death penalty system, the largest in the US, have revealed that a death sentence costs at least 18 times as much as a sentence of life without parole would cost.

My source: https://deathpenalty.org/facts/5-myths-death-penalty/

As for rehabilitation, we have absolutely no idea what's truly possible because no serious effort or infrastructure has been put in place to give it a serious try. If it fails (and there's every chance it could) then fine, but we haven't even tried. That bothers me.
so who do you think can be rehabilitated. a strait man will always be attracted to women. a gay man will always be attracted to a man and a pedo will always go after children so the chances of making a pedo stop going after children is the same as trying to stop strait men from being attracted to women or a gay man being attracted to men. some people can not be rehabilitated

Your analogy only works if you consider homosexuality a mental illness, which it isn't. Pedophilia is clearly a mental disorder. That's clinically proven and supported by numerous clinical studies. So it's disingenuous to compare the two. Just because conservative society believe homosexuality to be a mental illness, does not make it one nor does it put it on the same spectrum as pedophilia.

As I said, we don't know what's possible with rehabilitation because it hasn't even been seriously considered. All efforts could very well fail, but I doubt we would learn absolutely nothing from the effort.

by Unique Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:06 pm

I saw a documentary the other day and they were treating pedos with chemical castration so obviously they do not think it's a mental illness. Pedos dont wake up one day and say I'm giving up women and going after some kids. They are programmed to be attracted to children that's why they can never be rehabilitated and should be put down. Ted Bundy used to kidnapp rape and murder young women and then go back to the dead body's for weeks after to have sex with them. Do you think a few years in prison and a few chats with a psychiatrist could have fixed him. I don't think so. A junkie that steals and robs people to get money for drugs can be rehabilitated if you get them off the drugs clean them up and find them a job and a perpos in life and they can change. But some people can never change.

by McLewis Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:47 pm

Unique wrote:I saw a documentary the other day and they were treating pedos with chemical castration so obviously they do not think it's a mental illness. Pedos dont wake up one day and say I'm giving up women and going after some kids. They are programmed to be attracted to children that's why they can never be rehabilitated and should be put down. Ted Bundy used to kidnapp rape and murder young women and then go back to the dead body's for weeks after to have sex with them. Do you think a few years in prison and a few chats with a psychiatrist could have fixed him. I don't think so. A junkie that steals and robs people to get money for drugs can be rehabilitated if you get them off the drugs clean them up and find them a job and a perpos in life and they can change. But some people can never change.

You're hopping all over the place here. First you're comparing pedophiles to homosexuals and now you're using Bundy (not a pedophile or homosexual) as the worst possible reason to not even try to rehab lifers? Now you've jumped over to drug offenders, which isn't even a violent crime yet carries heavy sentences, especially for men of color.

At least you're getting some good reps in with all the goalpost moving you're doing.

by VivaStPauli Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:47 pm

The death penalty is barbaric and should have no room in any democracy.
When you execute a prisoner, you make the entire people of your nation, that legitimize your rule, accomplices to your murder.
Incidentally, there is only one Democracy that does execute prisoners. Because it's a weird fit.

by Unique Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:29 pm

McLewis wrote:
Unique wrote:I saw a documentary the other day and they were treating pedos with chemical castration so obviously they do not think it's a mental illness. Pedos dont wake up one day and say I'm giving up women and going after some kids. They are programmed to be attracted to children that's why they can never be rehabilitated and should be put down. Ted Bundy used to kidnapp rape and murder young women and then go back to the dead body's for weeks after to have sex with them. Do you think a few years in prison and a few chats with a psychiatrist could have fixed him. I don't think so. A junkie that steals and robs people to get money for drugs can be rehabilitated if you get them off the drugs clean them up and find them a job and a perpos in life and they can change. But some people can never change.

You're hopping all over the place here. First you're comparing pedophiles to homosexuals and now you're using Bundy (not a pedophile or homosexual) as the worst possible reason to not even try to rehab lifers? Now you've jumped over to drug offenders, which isn't even a violent crime yet carries heavy sentences, especially for men of color.

At least you're getting some good reps in with all the goalpost moving you're doing.

I'm not comparing pedos to gay people what I'm saying is gay people don't choose to be gay they are born that way. A straight person does not choose to be straight they are born that way. A pedo does not choose to be a pedo they are born that way. So any fool that says it's all in the mind to be a pedo is an idiot. My point is you can't stop a pedo from being attracted to children any more than you can cure a straight man from being attracted to women or a gay man from being attracted to men. My point with the Ted Bundy and drug offenders because you didn't stipulate who can be rehabilitated. So I said to you do you think a pep talk can cure someone like Bundy. Then I made the point about the drug offenders that could be rehabilitated easy.

by Unique Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:30 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:The death penalty is barbaric and should have no room in any democracy.
When you execute a prisoner, you make the entire people of your nation, that legitimize your rule, accomplices to your murder.
Incidentally, there is only one Democracy that does execute prisoners. Because it's a weird fit.

you saying that is as predicable as day follows night Very Happy

by VivaStPauli Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:57 pm

Unique wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:The death penalty is barbaric and should have no room in any democracy.
When you execute a prisoner, you make the entire people of your nation, that legitimize your rule, accomplices to your murder.
Incidentally, there is only one Democracy that does execute prisoners. Because it's a weird fit.
you saying that is as predicable as day follows night

Mate, you can always expect me to basically think the opposite of you.
Unless we're talking religion. Or maybe Liverpool.

by Unique Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:07 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
Unique wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:The death penalty is barbaric and should have no room in any democracy.
When you execute a prisoner, you make the entire people of your nation, that legitimize your rule, accomplices to your murder.
Incidentally, there is only one Democracy that does execute prisoners. Because it's a weird fit.
you saying that is as predicable as day follows night

Mate, you can always expect me to basically think the opposite of you.
Unless we're talking religion. Or maybe Liverpool.

so what would you do with child killers and pedos.

by VivaStPauli Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:23 pm

Lock 'em away and lose the key. Maybe if they respond well to therapy, find the key, and let them have visitors (grown up visitors, btw), but don't let them out.

by Unique Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:40 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:Lock 'em away and lose the key. Maybe if they respond well to therapy, find the key, and let them have visitors (grown up visitors, btw), but don't let them out.

that I did not expect you to say but I could get down with that.

by VivaStPauli Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:05 pm

I do think that rehabilitation should be the primary function of prisons and the like, but I also believe that you cannot rehabilitate everyone, and some people are just damaged beyond repair (or born evil, if you want to use such laden terms), and it serves society nothing to have them run around.
I do get what gets you riled up sometimes about left wing naivety, Unique, I just think there's worse things out there, but I'm probably more practical minded than you give me credit for.

by Blue Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:26 pm

https://abcnews.go.com/US/hours-execution-nathaniel-woods-alabama-governor-stays-mum/story?id=69409098

This is cruel.

by Unique Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:36 pm

just had a quick look at that and it does look like he was fully involved in the crime. you can argue against the death penalty but his conviction looks sound.

by The Demon of Carthage Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:44 pm

On the contrary, I heard something in the video that made my blood run cold.

Around 0:28, it says "Although persecutors said Woods was not the gunman and Woods' convicted accomplice said he alone killed the officers, Woods was found guilty on capital charges".

The man didn't fire the gun, why was he executed?!

Maybe I'm missing something here, but from the looks of it, a terrible, unforgivable and irreversible injustice has been committed by the Supreme Court here and it shows that there's something seriously wrong with the justice system.

by Unique Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:51 pm

The Demon of Carthage wrote:On the contrary, I heard something in the video that made my blood run cold.

Around 0:28, it says "Although persecutors said Woods was not the gunman and Woods' convicted accomplice said he alone killed the officers, Woods was found guilty on capital charges".

The man didn't fire the gun, why was he executed?!

Maybe I'm missing something here, but from the looks of it, a terrible, unforgivable and irreversible injustice has been committed by the Supreme Court here and it shows that there's something seriously wrong with the justice system.

you can look at a crime 2 ways. one technically and 2 morally. technically he didnt fire the gun but morally he was just as involved. its the same as charlie manson. technically he didnt kill anyone but morally he was as much to blame and deserved to be found guilty.

by Art Morte Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:12 pm

The damning part for me was where it said that although Woods did not fire the weapon, he bragged about being involved in the cop murders afterwards. I have no pity for someone like that.

by Unique Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:22 pm

both men were drug taking/dealing criminals that were armed and willing to kill people and were destined to end up where they did. like i said you can argue the death penalty but both being found guilty is the right call imo.

by VivaStPauli Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:32 pm

Edit: realized I don't give a shit

by The Demon of Carthage Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:37 pm

Think about it for min, he was executed literally for a crime he didn't commit.

He did not pull the trigger, and those three cops were murdered by someone else. Why was he executed?

There's a big difference between a perpetrator and an accomplice. The problem here is that the state of Alabama sought to punish the accomplice to the same extent as the first-degree principal and succeeded, which is wrong on so many levels.

by VivaStPauli Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:39 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:Edit: realized I don't give a shit

I actually give a shit.

Execution is fucking barbaric and no civilized country does this.
This is why the world is baffled by America.
This is fucking barbaric.
Get your fucking shit sorted out, mates.

by Art Morte Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:52 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:Edit: realized I don't give a shit

I actually give a shit.

Execution is fucking barbaric and no civilized country does this.
This is why the world is baffled by America.
This is fucking barbaric.
Get your fucking shit sorted out, mates.

There is no other civilized country like America, though. They are their own chapter. Violence goes both ways there on a regular basis.

by VivaStPauli Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:53 pm

They execute people. They are not civilized. They lack the fundamental respect for human life and dignity that amounts for civility and civilization (admittedly only in my very private definition of the term, but I've been forthcoming that I am sharing my opinion, nothing else).

Edit: When I say "they" I mean the theoretical American nation, not all it's citizens. I am perfectly aware many Americans do not agree with the actions of their government.

by Unique Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:13 pm

The Demon of Carthage wrote:Think about it for min, he was executed literally for a crime he didn't commit.

He did not pull the trigger, and those three cops were murdered by someone else. Why was he executed?

There's a big difference between a perpetrator and an accomplice. The problem here is that the state of Alabama sought to punish the accomplice to the same extent as the first-degree principal and succeeded, which is wrong on so many levels.

but do you also think charles manson should not have been found guilty of murder. would you say a whole life sentence for murder when he did not kill anyone ( in the crimes he was convicted of ) was unfair.

by Unique Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:17 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:Edit: realized I don't give a shit

I actually give a shit.

Execution is fucking barbaric and no civilized country does this.
This is why the world is baffled by America.
This is fucking barbaric.
Get your fucking shit sorted out, mates.

would you kill someone that killed your family if you had the chance.

by McLewis Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:24 pm

Alabama is about to execute Nathaniel Woods. The death penalty is wrong, but it’s especially unjust for the government to take someone’s life when he wasn’t the shooter, the sentencing was not unanimous, and significant questions remain about culpability. https://t.co/i5chfM6t3H
— Justin Amash (@justinamash) March 5, 2020

FYI - Alabama executed a man earlier today for essentially what adds up to guilt by association.

I encourage you guys to read up about Nathaniel Woods. His execution is exactly why I'm against the death penalty.

This man killed no one. They prosecuted him because of a Dr. Dre song from 1992 about killing cops and then used that to say that he "lured" 4 cops into an ambush by his friend, who is the actual shooter. His friend, who is also facing death, has admitted that Woods had nothing to do with it. Woods got executed first.

These cops weren't "lured" they died doing their jobs as they were answering a warrant.

Barbaric and reprehensible.

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