Juve's Trash Midfield

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Post by 80s_Stallone Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:17 pm

Something I have not really been able to understand is why so many people on here and on other forums think our midfield is so bad. It does not really make sense to me.

We have 2 players in our midfield that, when fully on their game, are top level players in Pjanic and Matuidi. Matuidi in particular goes unnoticed with how much he contributes to attacking and defensive phases. We have our midfield playmaker in Pjanic, who is a great passer and underrated defender.

The third MF which is usually rotated by Can and Betancur this season with Khedira out could certainly use an upgrade but besides that I dont really see our midfield as the dross that others see it as.

Thoughts?
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Post by rincon Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:01 pm

It's not that it's so poor overall, it's better than most midfields out there of course, but for a "super" team it's a weak point. It's by far the poorest part of the team.

Ronaldo, Dybala, Mandzukic, Bernardeschi, Cuadrado, Costa, Kean is a GOAT attack. It's stacked to a ridiculous degree if everyone is fit. We lost Cuadrado the second half of the season, Costa has been poor, and STILL it's a fantastic attack.

Chiellini, Bonucci, Rugani, Caceres, Cancelo, De Sciglio, Alex Sandro, Spinazzola it's a doubling up on each of the 4 defensive positions with top players. Some more than others, but even the back ups are great.

Szczesny and Perin for GK. Enough said.

Then we have a WC top midfielder in Pjanic and... "good" players. There is a significant difference between Pjanic and all other mids, which is unacceptable given the rest of the quality of the team.

Take Pjanic out and we are totally dysfunctional. Compare our other mids to Napoli's: Allan and Fabian walk into our team. They are significantly better than Matuidi and Bentancur. If we then look at other top teams then we find plenty of midfielders that would improve us. Besides the overall quality of our non-Pjanic mids being suboptimal, it's also the style of it.

Matuidi, Khedira and Can are not playmakers which makes it difficult to create chances from midfield and to link to the attack. Those 3 when played as mezzala are all the same midfielder that when attacking, makes a run to the box waiting to pounce on a ball that breaks the lines.

So how do we link the mid to the attack? Dybala. The inability of the mezzalas to playmake means that Dybala has to drop deep to receive the ball and do it himself. Dybala does this great as he is just great at everything, but it handicaps his goal output.

Before we had Cuadrado being great at this. He evolved into a great midfielder and always beats his man, so he advanced play from deep and the team looked better. At the end of last season we also had in form Costa doing it. Now we have neither and rely on Dybala or Bernardeschi to do it.
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Post by 80s_Stallone Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:02 pm

All valid points except about matuidi. Obviously you watch him game in and game out so I'm not saying you are wrong; I think his play is understated and underappreciated. Certainly not fantastic on attack but I dont think he hurts the team at all.

That 3rd midfielder spot is definitely troubling though... as you said, anyone who plays there is just "good" on a good day. Would love to see an upgrade there.
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Post by 80s_Stallone Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:03 pm

With regards to dybala, as much as I love him, his talent and potential is being somewhat wasted with us being that he has to do the things outlined in rincons post.
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Post by Warrior Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:29 pm

No problems with Pjanic or Matuidi as individual players. The latter just renewed, and despite looking a bit clumsy ball on feet, he's all over the place and reliable to defend.

Problem is the 3rd player.
We need a jack of all trades who can support Pjanic in creativity and cut the passing lines. Bentancur is okay but he did not found his consistency yet. Sometimes i don't notice him at all during a match. Emre Can i'm not convinced, he's a headless chicken. Khedira is done.

Maybe Ramsey will be that 3rd midfielder, it allows Pjanic to play more advanced instead of that bs regista/DM role. Then it leaves Bentancur, Can and Khedira as subs which is correct but not great. If an injury occurs we'll have the same problem.

Overall it just lacks a bit of fun in midfield. It isn't "shit" but it sure is "boring". Our weakness since 3 seasons.
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Post by rincon Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:47 pm

Agree on Dybala @Stallone, and with most of that @Warrior.
Dybala has really has taken one for the team this season.

On Matuidi, i feel like he gets too much of pass sometimes. Like you say individually he is ok. But in that same fashion, Bentancur individually is ok too. The problem is that both of them together isnt good enough.

We can say: given that we have Matuidi, the 3rd midfielder is a problem. But we can also say: given that we have Bentancur, the 3rd midfielder is a problem. Both are only good enough to be the weak link in midfield, the problem is we have two such weak links.

If instead of Bentancur we had Ramsey then we would probably be good with Matuidi. On the flipside, if instead of Matuidi we had Allan, we would be good with Bentancur.
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Post by rincon Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:54 pm

The man that would have solved this for us is Cuadrado in that midfield role he was playing this season. Then having Matuidi running around Pjanic is perfect.
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Post by Warrior Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:45 pm

Yes Cuadrado is a legit mezzala and would have been useful. Now imagine if Pjanic gets injured: we are S-C-R-E-W-E-D

Which sums up this whole thread sadly

Not sure to which extent we can blame Allegri for that, after 5 years i don't think he'd hesitate to ring a bell if the midfield doesn't satisfy him. Clearly he prefers big all-rounded midfielders instead of specialists.

Fair enough with this mentality, it's less trouble tactically (the problem is the casting not the idea) but it seems as if Allegri became complacent with Khedira and thinks he found his younger version in Can. Supposedly those guys are pitbulls who win us the ball on every header and have great passing and finishing, but reality is not that. So the evaluation of a proper box-to-box seems broken. And now we have 1 creator, 4 all-rounded who excel in nothing. Not even a 6th guy would you believe.
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Post by Warrior Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:54 pm

In ideal world, next season we have 2 creators, 3 all-rounded and 1 mostly defensive. So three specialists in the rotation instead of just one.

Starters: Pjanic, Ramsey, a DM
Subs: Matuidi, Bentancur, a creative CM

Add Cuadrado if needed.
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Post by 80s_Stallone Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:49 pm

@Warrior wrote:No problems with Pjanic or Matuidi as individual players. The latter just renewed, and despite looking a bit clumsy ball on feet, he's all over the place and reliable to defend.

Problem is the 3rd player.
We need a jack of all trades who can support Pjanic in creativity and cut the passing lines. Bentancur is okay but he did not found his consistency yet. Sometimes i don't notice him at all during a match. Emre Can i'm not convinced, he's a headless chicken. Khedira is done.

Maybe Ramsey will be that 3rd midfielder, it allows Pjanic to play more advanced instead of that bs regista/DM role. Then it leaves Bentancur, Can and Khedira as subs which is correct but not great. If an injury occurs we'll have the same problem.

Overall it just lacks a bit of fun in midfield. It isn't "shit" but it sure is "boring". Our weakness since 3 seasons.

Yes, boring is definitely the word id choose to describe it. No flash whatsoever, but it has been effective, albeit boring.
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Post by 80s_Stallone Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:51 pm

@rincon wrote:Agree on Dybala @Stallone, and with most of that @Warrior.
Dybala has really has taken one for the team this season.

On Matuidi, i feel like he gets too much of pass sometimes. Like you say individually he is ok. But in that same fashion, Bentancur individually is ok too. The problem is that both of them together isnt good enough.

We can say: given that we have Matuidi, the 3rd midfielder is a problem. But we can also say: given that we have Bentancur, the 3rd midfielder is a problem. Both are only good enough to be the weak link in midfield, the problem is we have two such weak links.

If instead of Bentancur we had Ramsey then we would probably be good with Matuidi. On the flipside, if instead of Matuidi we had Allan, we would be good with Bentancur.

Good analogy. I really wish we had signed Kante when he was available from Leicester. It just doesnt look to me like there are a lot of top quality proven DMs that are floating around to allow Pjanic to break free from his shackles as the regista.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:49 pm

Will be hilarious to see how you guys react when you realize that Ramsey has the positional compass of a second striker. "Supporting Pjanic so he can get forward" Laughing
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Post by rincon Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:01 am

That is one of the things we could use. We need a better midfielder with playmaking skills that links the midfield to the attack. That's Ramsey's deal.

Pjanic isn't moving anywhere unless we change coaches (not that I want to), that's his position with Allegri.
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Post by C Ronaldo Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:52 pm

Juventus midfield is good enough



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Post by 80s_Stallone Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:24 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:Will be hilarious to see how you guys react when you realize that Ramsey has the positional compass of a second striker. "Supporting Pjanic so he can get forward" Laughing

ramsey is definitely not the answer haha. We need a proper DM imo.
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Post by 80s_Stallone Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:25 pm

@C Ronaldo wrote:Juventus midfield is good enough



Maybe. If we win the CL then yes it will prove that it was in fact good enough. If we don't, it will be the glaring reason why we didn't even though I do not believe it is nearly as bad as people make it seam
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Post by rincon Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:06 pm

@C Ronaldo wrote:Juventus midfield is good enough


welcome to GL
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Post by C Ronaldo Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:23 pm

UCL is not easy to dominate opponents because every team is a good team there

we just hope that Ronaldo makes the difference


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Post by C Ronaldo Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:30 pm

@rincon wrote:
@C Ronaldo wrote:Juventus midfield is good enough


welcome to GL


hi there Rincon, I am Lucianomoggi but using a new account
I don't use the old one

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Post by Hapless_Hans Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:56 pm

@C Ronaldo wrote:
@rincon wrote:
@C Ronaldo wrote:Juventus midfield is good enough


welcome to GL


hi there Rincon, I am Lucianomoggi but using a new account
I don't use the old one


Why not?
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Post by C Ronaldo Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:19 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@C Ronaldo wrote:
@rincon wrote: welcome to GL


hi there Rincon, I am Lucianomoggi but using a new account
I don't use the old one


Why not?


its because the old account was registered with an email that I don't use long time ago, I don't think that its against rules to use a single account as I am doing

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Post by Hapless_Hans Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:49 pm

@C Ronaldo wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@C Ronaldo wrote:

hi there Rincon, I am Lucianomoggi but using a new account
I don't use the old one


Why not?


its because the old account was registered with an email that I don't use long time ago, I don't think that its against rules to use a single account as I am doing


Sure, I wasn't suggesting that it is, I was just asking because we all know and love you as lucianomoggi.
But anyway welcome back!
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Post by C Ronaldo Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:30 am

thank you
i also love you guys and that is why im here

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Post by sportsczy Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:07 am

Matuidi fools you into thinking he's doing a decent job because he's all effort... people like guys who work hard (or at least appear to).

But pretty quickly, you realize he's just ok defensively, is below average technically and is clumsy quite often.  Eventually, you realize that, although serviceable and definitely deserving of a roster spot...  Matuidi has no business starting for a club like Juve.

As a France NT fan, it kills me especially since, in our case, we have incredibly talented players that he's blocking.
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Post by C Ronaldo Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:12 pm

we have attacking minded side backs
we have Bernardeschi + Pjanic
so there is enough attacking power

we cannot sacrifice all our defensive profiles to add more attacking qualities

if it still isn't good enough than start blaming guys like Mandzukic, Ronaldo, Bernardeschi, Pjanic, Sandro, Cancelo

you cant just keep adding strikers on the team





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