Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?

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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:37 pm

Brexit was fueled not just by nationalism but by xenophobia, quite specifically.

The English, like other people too, want less immigrants, which is an attitude that's rather rich given their history of occupying the whole world. Of course, Brexit doesn't mean less immigrants but nvm.

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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:46 pm

@myesyats yeah your views do have changed, haven't they?

I seem to remember your political posts to be much more unreflecting and much more containing regurgitation of right wing talking points which tend to be BS at closer look.

You seem much more relaxed, you do your own thinking, curious, connected to the world. That's awesome, man, it really is.
If discussions on here had anything to do with that, we can all be very proud. To be able to listen to people and learn, and to be a community across borders is fantastic. Thumbs up

And Poland is a better place for that too. You're certainly not letting your country down, if that's what you were worried about.
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Post by Pedram Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:11 pm

Myesyats wrote:Yeah totally, pretty sure brexit was mainly fueled by nationalism and they'll be surprised if they actually won't be able to control their own borders once they're free of EU and as you say influx of indians etc will get worse. I used to have a nationalistic overview on things as well as a young man, but looking back I was so fucking stupid and thanks to GL mainly I have done a 180 and I guess I could be considered as far from a nationalist as I can be currently, especially in my climate where many people are catholic & conservative.


Eh more like a 90 degree since you turned into a lib, not complaining though, always good to see someone leave the right-wing sphere through discourse with like-minded people. Thumbs up

I recall you used to post Dave Rubin and PragerU videos which suggests Youtube was playing a strong part in radicalizing you. man i hate how their recommendation algorithm works, all you had to do was clicking on one of those "Jordan Peterson destroys SJWs with Fact and Logic" video and your whole feed would turn into straight right-wing propaganda.
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Post by Myesyats Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:47 pm

It's definitely my membership on GL that has completely turned me around from a right-wing sympathizer, to a centrist and now a left-winger totally. As a young man I used to hang around many hooligans I guess you could say, very hardcore football fans who are a traditional and patriotic group which led me down a close-minded path (although I never voted right-wing either for president or in parliamentary elections, centrist party was my go-to hmm). But the connection on this forum toward people of many cultures has influenced me greatly. You are really a product of your environment.

Another thing is that the current generation of Polish youth is so liberal, in the next 10-20 years I'm expecting a great shift in our political landscape. Already record numbers of people going away from the church, parents deciding not to baptize their children and distancing themself from religion altogether. Finally, I should say.

Pedram wrote:I recall you used to post Dave Rubin and PragerU videos which suggests Youtube was playing a strong part in radicalizing you. man i hate how their recommendation algorithm works, all you had to do was clicking on one of those "Jordan Peterson destroys SJWs with Fact and Logic" video and your whole feed would turn into straight right-wing propaganda.

I would never think about it this way but that's so accurate. 100% true. It didn't take me long to get out of that hole though, mid-twenties is not bad.

These days I'm a #AOCforPresident kinda guy. It's been quite a ride.
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Post by Myesyats Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:34 am

Unique wrote:Looks like Boris has got things done. He don't fuck about for years like them other twats.

Over a year later and we get another extension....

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:34 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I think the "deadline" will keep getting pushed until a deal is reached, even if that takes months
Sleep
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Post by rincon Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:40 pm

The deadline hasn't been extended, its still December 31st.

She is referring to not closing talks at this moment. Previously they had agreed to be done or not with the deal by last Sunday (already pushed back from earlier). So on Sunday they agreed to continue. Basically as they have hope they can still find some agreements.

The transition period is still set to end this year as it was from the start
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Post by Myesyats Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:58 pm

Oh thats good. Lets hope that'll be the end of that. This should have been over within the first couple months.
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Post by rincon Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:15 pm

The first soft deadline to finish talks was October I think, then it got pushed back as there was no deal, but there was hope of getting one.

Basically they didn't want it to go down the wire and to have some breathing room before the transition period ended. Predictably it has failed and so it's 2 weeks to new years and there is no deal.

In the last 2 weeks it looked like a deal would be impossible with the UK passing their internal market bill, breaching international law and basically scrapping any hope of a smooth transition with the EU. Since then the UK backtracked and a deal became possible again, so they chose to continue negotiations.

There are still some huge stumbling blocks like the EU equal playing field clauses (or some similar name). Basically the EU demands that the UK match their standard of things like labour law and pollution for their industry if they are to join the single market. If EU companies have to adhere to a higher standard of regulations than their UK counterparts, they may become less competitive than the UK firms, and if those firms have access to the EU single market then they gain a clear competitive advantage.

The EU proposes that this should be reciprocal, if the UK passes more  stringent laws, then the EU also has to follow. Basically each becomes a mirror of each other for things that affect competitiveness in the market.

Johnson said that no UK prime minister could sign this. So a deal looks difficult.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:16 pm

rincon wrote:The deadline hasn't been extended, its still December 31st.

She is referring to not closing talks at this moment. Previously they had agreed to be done or not with the deal by last Sunday (already pushed back from earlier). So on Sunday they agreed to continue. Basically as they have hope they can still find some agreements.

The transition period is still set to end this year as it was from the start
there's the end of the transition period and the deadline for negotiation. Absolutely right the first hasn't changed, but the later has changed several times now.
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Post by VivaStPauli Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:16 pm

You guys I know it's really satisfying when something's over, but honestly, with the Brexit talks, we should all hope for a deal. No-deal Brexit will get meeeeessy.
The Ireland/Ireland border alone is such an unsolvable clusterfuck without EU help...
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Post by Myesyats Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:06 pm

rincon wrote:If EU companies have to adhere to a higher standard of regulations than their UK counterparts, they may become less competitive than the UK firms, and if those firms have access to the EU single market then they gain a clear competitive advantage.

The EU proposes that this should be reciprocal, if the UK passes more  stringent laws, then the EU also has to follow. Basically each becomes a mirror of each other for things that affect competitiveness in the market.

Naturally this should be the case. Shame on the UK peoples if they thought the EU will roll over and apologize.
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Post by Babun Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:36 pm

UK is already in a huge crisis. Apparently, food is flown over by Lufthansa to ensure full shleves in UK supermarkets:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/12/23/business/lufthansa-uk-food-airlift/index.html
Imagine what will happen after the 1.1.2021 Very Happy
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:52 pm

And a deal has been reached! No details yet but at least some sense of normalcy will return.
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Post by Babun Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:52 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:And a deal has been reached! No details yet but at least some sense of normalcy will return.

Tarif free access for goods with no access for the service sector to the single market (80% of UK's economy). We'll see what the future holds for the both sides.
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:40 pm

The UK hilariously got nothing they wanted, except for not being subject to the European Supreme Court, but they agreed to work out alternative ways of arbitration, making this mostly a fig leaf.
But I guess Johnson got to save a modicum of face, so he'll be happy-ish, and the EU got away rather well...
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Post by Myesyats Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:44 pm

People saying this success as described by Boris is all in all even worse than the May deal. Key areas either negative for Britain or still up for negotiation with hopes for a compromise lol

If aliens came down and said "we're taking over your government" everyone would be ecstatic I'm sure.
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Post by VivaStPauli Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:54 am

I mean Brexit obviously is one of those cases where you invite a foreign policy shitstorm just to score domestic politics points.

As long as Johnson can point to the fishing quota for EU countries going down in British waters, and can slow freedom of movement for foreigners in Britain, and also technically not be subject to EU courts, he'll probably be able to sell it as a win to his supporters.

Objectively speaking, this is of course pretty bad for Britain, and worse for the EU than having Britain as a member was. Everyone's a loser here, except the leavers, who got in power through all of it. But eventually everyone loses by the EU losing power, IMHO.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:47 pm

So is everyone happy now? Great. Let's move on.
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Post by Myesyats Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:32 pm

In 2013 Boris advised fellow ministers to stop blaming Brussels for all our problems.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/this-is-the-column-boris-johnson-wants-you-to-forget/05/09/

In his article published on 12 May 2013, Mr Johnson said that he would support the legislation, but warns that Britain’s problems will not be solved by simply leaving the EU as many of his Conservative colleagues apparently believe.

“If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by “Bwussels”, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and underinvestment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure,” the former London Mayor said.



I do love an honest politician.
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Post by VivaStPauli Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:47 pm

2013 Boris was right for one moment in time, it seems.
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Post by RealGunner Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:43 am

Most Tories didn't want brexit (they are all businessmen)

It was just a tool to win the elections which came back to haunt them.
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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:29 pm

Yeah but that pisses me off even more, the Tories knew perfectly well what they did, and they did sooooo much damage with their lies, just for a bit of short term gain, which they didn't even end up really getting.
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Post by Art Morte Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:02 pm

I, for one, cannot wait to learn what decisions the UK is going to make that are going to bring them more prosperity & happiness and that were previously prevented by being in the EU.
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Post by RealGunner Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:46 pm

Art Morte wrote:I, for one, cannot wait to learn what decisions the UK is going to make that are going to bring them more prosperity & happiness and that were previously prevented by being in the EU.


Tbh i am interested as well if anything reallychanges

Supermarkets have already said food prices won't be affected and if there is a change it will be in pennies.

We'll probably end up rejoining in 10-20 years anyways
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Post by Myesyats Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:24 pm

Brexit: Should the UK stay or go? - Page 33 H082tiqo75561

depends whether the products are manufactured within the EU, i guess
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