Julen Numptegui Suicide Watch

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Post by farfan Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:17 pm

D.O.C what if someone like Conte comes and turns everything around almost immediately? would that be enough to convince you that hiring the worst manager in Porto history was probably Flo's biggest mistake?

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Post by Mr Nick09 Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:21 pm

Arguing that it's normal we are underperforming vs the likes of Levante and CSKA with the team we have is highly desingenious and agenda driven because you are unhappy about the recruiting. That is what guides your rhetoric from what I can see.

I am not arguing this team should win the champions league or do the treble, I am stating that we should be way better than some of the team's we lost against, including the last game we won vs Vitoria.

The team is underperforming mainly for football reasons, the same way it was the last season and there are many reasons for it. Not being good enough is not one of them
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Post by futbol_bill Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:29 pm

The Demon of Carthage wrote:

@Bill, do you know if there's a clause or some conditions that, if met, the socios can force the president to step down?


Nope, absolute complete control until next election!
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Post by Valkyrja Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:22 pm

futbol_bill wrote:
The Demon of Carthage wrote:

@Bill, do you know if there's a clause or some conditions that, if met, the socios can force the president to step down?


Nope, absolute complete control until next election!


Good. Our only hope for competing against PL and oil clubs.
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Post by Thimmy Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:48 pm

What was initially seen as a terrible start to the season was considered in hindsight to be a wobble. Thanks to some awful Loris Karius goalkeeping and a moment of genius from Gareth Bale in Kyiv, what could well have been a monumental disaster of a season ended with a 13th European Cup.

Madrid defied logic last term and were kept afloat – often – on the strength of some fine individual performances.

But let’s not forget how inept they were in the early exchanges – against Valencia, Levante, Real Betis, Girona and Tottenham in that period around one year ago. There was talk of Zidane being fired and of Madrid being woefully equipped for either a La Liga title defence or fresh run at the Champions League.

But trophies have the same kind of effect that the Neuralyzer had in Men In Black. Everything preceding the cup being lifted into the air is soon forgotten.

Right now, Lopetegui has no credit with the fans, no credit with Perez. He cannot point to his recent achievements and warm rapport with the players and insist that with calm all will be OK in the long run.  

Neither does he have Cristiano Ronaldo.

Lopetegui just had to force himself in and mess everything up! Zidane better come back to make everything good again. And for the love of god, please stop referring to him being the most awful manager in Porto history, as if the same people haven't mentioned it countless times, already. It makes no difference.

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Post by The Demon of Carthage Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:50 pm

farfan wrote:D.O.C what if someone like Conte comes and turns everything around almost immediately? would that be enough to convince you that hiring the worst manager in Porto history was probably Flo's biggest mistake?

Absolutely.

Let me tell you what would really happen though if Florentino hired Conte. Madrid would leak less goals than they are under Lopetegui and he would be more effective in killing scrubs with his bus-parking and soul-sucking football. People would buy into his ideas and be duped into believing he just might be the right man for the job. Then, the moment he faces a heavyweight, he'll get his ass handed to him. And he would finish trophyless or with a CdR trophy at best.

Please understand that I'm not defending Lopetegui because I think he's a great manager. He definitely isn't (or at least, he hasn't done enough to be thought of as such). I'm defending him because I think he's being treated unfairly and has been dealt a very rough hand.

Just to remind those who apparently have forgotten the not-so-distant past. If Zidane hadn't had Ronaldo, he would've crashed out to Wolsfburg in the CL in his first season. If Zidane hadn't had Morata, he wouldn't have won the league. If Zidane hadn't had Ronaldo, he would've crashed out to Atlético in the semi-final of the CL in 2017. If Zidane hadn't had Ronaldo, he would've lost to Juventus in the quarter-finals in 2018.

Ronaldo was the catalyst and cornerstone of Zidane's success at Madrid. And if it wasn't for him, Zidane would've ended up trophyless and losing regularly to scrubs. Yet somehow we expect Lopetegui to win games without a proper goalscorer and with a laughable attack that any self-respecting manager would turn down before even blinking? Sorry, I'm not doing that.

The day Lopetegui gets a proper squad, my tone will change and I'll be holding him accountable to any mistake he makes, no matter how minuscule it is. But for the time being, he's to me a victim of a cheap-ass president and an unambitious transfer policy.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:54 pm

futbol_bill wrote:
The Demon of Carthage wrote:

@Bill, do you know if there's a clause or some conditions that, if met, the socios can force the president to step down?


Nope, absolute complete control until next election!

Great. Kill me now.
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Post by titosantill Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:44 pm

Florentino has his faults but imo he is the right president for the club. I saw a post about wanting florentino gone....trust me, you dont want that
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:55 pm

Not as of yet. But if he doesn't strengthen the squad next summer. He should be gone.

It doesn't matter anyway. Bill said he has full protection and control until the next elections.
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Post by futbol_bill Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:30 pm

DoC, i love your passion. But getting rid of Flo is not the answer. We are stuck with him irregardless, not only until next election, but more likely until he steps down, on his own accord. He managed to change rules that most others interested can’t run.

It is as Tito said, the alternatives will likely be much worse. Do you not remember the crook Calderon! Flo is the best president we have ever had both in terms of financially but results as well (and it’s not just futbol, it’s baloncesto as well).

What we really need is someone with futbol credentials to advise him, be it as a sporting director or simply an advisor. Currently it Sanchez, but he is a contract guy, an accountant / lawyer. There is Butregueño but he doesn’t seem to have much input. Zidane actually did quite well at this for a short period. Possibly Raul could do the same. My point is Flo is an excellent CEO, but he needs someone to advise him.

I know current problems are mainly the result of Flo not buying, but his approach is not all wrong. It’s just that he has put all his eggs in one basket (too many youth) and not addressed the biggest need, a solid scorer. The biggest issue, I have is him holding Loptequi responsible for his own shortcomings!

So our best (and only) hope is for someone to give him some solid advice, and him to listen.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:56 pm

Perez is maybe the best president including history. He is not perfect but his management with hindsight, has been excellent. I had my issues with him before but he delivered our greatest era in 60 years + multiple.

Talking as if he is some asenine old man is ridiculous. It doesn't matter how well you plan, things can always go wrong. If they do, well you keep the ship steady and you weather the storm.

Like it or not, but big picture we are in a transition, assumed even if not publicized where we are adapting to the new market conditions and building a new era for tomorrow.

I feel like you are not taking any step back and your comment make it seems like you need to be winning the CL every year. The club will always ambition to with. Trophies every season but they will also make senseless moves to make that happen. End of the day you want your players to compete and we ran into situation where by design or by desire, they were not doing that this year.

Madrid fans should be the happiest and most at ease in football right now, life is good, just chill
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:27 pm

futbol_bill wrote:DoC, i love your passion. But getting rid of Flo is not the answer. We are stuck with him irregardless, not only until next election, but more likely until he steps down, on his own accord. He managed to change rules that most others interested can’t run.

It is as Tito said, the alternatives will likely be much worse. Do you not remember the crook Calderon! Flo is the best president we have ever had both in terms of financially but results as well (and it’s not just futbol, it’s baloncesto as well).

What we really need is someone with futbol credentials to advise him, be it as a sporting director or simply an advisor. Currently it Sanchez, but he is a contract guy, an accountant / lawyer. There is Butregueño but he doesn’t seem to have much input. Zidane actually did quite well at this for a short period. Possibly Raul could do the same. My point is Flo is an excellent CEO, but he needs someone to advise him.

I know current problems are mainly the result of Flo not buying, but his approach is not all wrong. It’s just that he has put all his eggs in one basket (too many youth) and not addressed the biggest need, a solid scorer. The biggest issue, I have is him holding Loptequi responsible for his own shortcomings!

So our best (and only) hope is for someone to give him some solid advice, and him to listen.

So you don't mind having him in charge even if he goes years without bringing in elite talent?

I don't know about that. I used to respect him a lot before when he was ruthless and constantly striving for perfection. Now, his drive seems to have faded significantly and his ambitions dramatically decreased.

I think he has done enough already to earn his place among the most successful presidents in Madrid's history. But if he truly believes in this new strategy of gambling on youth, then I really wish he would find it in his heart to quietly step down because it's simply suicidal.

I have seen three versions of Florentino in my lifetime:

1. First-term Florentino: Buying Galacticos for fun without stopping for a second to see what the team needs first instead of solely focusing on marketing. I hated this version of his.

2. Second-term Florentino: ruthless and diabolical. He kept his desire of signing elite talent intact, but this time he started to look at what the team needs as well. He signed world beaters that the team  needed and planned ahead by signing insanely strong bench players who later would become undisputed starters. This is the period that defined his success. Best version of his if you ask me.

3. 2016-onward Florentino: unambitious, cheap with very low standards. Doesn't plan ahead and refuses to strengthen a dying golden generation. He just seems to be perfectly content with riding on the back of those ageing stars until they wither away and be replaced by kids who aren't nearly as strong as the bench players who were bought in 2013 and 2014 to keep the quality of the squad intact and the starters on their toes. Needless to say I absolutely loathe this version of his.

Individuals should be judged by their actions and not their name or their past glory. If he's still the Florentino I know and respect, then please by all means, continue. If he's truly changed for the worse, then it would be best if he stepped down.
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Post by futbol_bill Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:46 pm

I’m not really going to debate this with you as you are obviously fixed on your position. But consider for a moment, the three phases you referred to

Phase 1 - Yes he recklessly bought galacticos, but he did so while at the same time putting the club financially better than any club in world except possibly Man U (at that time). He changed (upon advice) when it was pointed out to him that not all transfers work out.

Phase 2 - absolutely worked well, as you describe (except for signing that sob to coach).

Phase 3 - he listened to his advisors and provided stability that has been needed for years. The only real fault in the the first years is not recognizing how poor Benzema is plus not dealing with injury prone Bale. He has gone overboard on youth, I will agree,  he’s actually betting that SOME of them will work, but he isn’t putting all his eggs in the same basket. He has 300M put aside for that one galactico he desperately wants. You (and others) refused to accept that this year would be a transition. You can’t shouldn’t fault him for that. What he is at fault for is not bringing in a lower priced scorer and not giving Lopetequi the three players he requested and thus the burden of too many youth. And I agree with you that it is not fair to Lopetequi to be sacked because of his deficienies.
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Post by Doc Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:37 am

Just a draw would ensure he won't get fired before December, come on Lope, you can forestall your demise (also, as a Madrid fan, would like a win please).
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Post by guest7 Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:48 pm

Biggest weakness of Flo is his reluctance to pump money in the club with his own money (aka paying for the stadium)

Meanwhile oil sheikhs are pumping money into non-relevant clubs that aren't even from their country!

But it's okay... Because in the end he is a business man. Self made
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Post by futbol_bill Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:29 pm

guest7 wrote:Biggest weakness of Flo is his reluctance to pump money in the club with his own money (aka paying for the stadium)

Meanwhile oil sheikhs are pumping money into non-relevant clubs that aren't even from their country!

But it's okay... Because in the end he is a business man. Self made



??? Once again proving you have no idea about what you are talking about? Have you ever taken the time to look at the financial organization of the club you proportedly support? Or are you just to ignorant to understand the complexities of corporate organizations?
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Post by Nivash Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:30 pm

guest7 wrote:Biggest weakness of Flo is his reluctance to pump money in the club with his own money (aka paying for the stadium)

Meanwhile oil sheikhs are pumping money into non-relevant clubs that aren't even from their country!

But it's okay... Because in the end he is a business man. Self made


Oil sheiks backed by sovereign wealth funds. Tht's irrelevant though, since the club isn't owned by Flo, and its business model isn't reliant on funds injected by the president.

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Post by futbol_bill Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:26 pm

Whether it’s an oil sheik, Russian mafia or American businessman, it is an investment for them and they seeked to reap profits from their investments. This kid seems to think the owners or presidents put up money simply to satisfy fans!! Talk about navitity!
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:34 pm

Not to mention Abu Dhabi and Qatar pump money into football clubs for the publicity and PR it gives to the country worldwide. It's invaluable to them, and it doesn't matter if the club is making a loss sometimes because they are so wealthy they can cover it.

This reminds me of someone during the last club assembly asking Perez why he doesn't pay for the renovation himself lol. Perez laughed, like everyone but the club needs to be ran on a model which is self sustainable. Not to mention that they are some strict rules now in Europe about how much you can inject of outside money into a club and so on...

Perez's legacy with our recent run is now unassailable.
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Post by guest7 Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:21 pm

futbol_bill wrote:Whether it’s an oil sheik, Russian mafia or American businessman, it is an investment for them and they seeked to reap profits from their investments. This kid seems to think the owners or presidents put up money simply to satisfy fans!! Talk about navitity!


You are not familair with how many clubs that have flopped with an oil sheikh then... There is literally very little profit in it. It's mostly for their own PR.

Also me saying that Flo could pay for the stadium itself isn't as crazy as you make it out to be. But I respect his decision to not do it. Madrid is a club that is big enough to run itself
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Post by titosantill Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:32 pm

a club like madrid isn't solely about football nor about sporting, its all inclusive. its why i've always liked florentino; yes he has made  tons of bonehead decisions from a sporting standpoint, (and he'll make many more that will make us pull our hair out of the scalp) but you hardly hear about issues of finances being a major cause of concern. from an economic standpoint, so far, even during his first stint, he seems to have gotten it right. there are folks who operate like him but never had his vision from a monetary standpoint

massimo moratti is a perfect example, he was flo before flo, but unlike flo, his scope and plans seemed limited to the footballing aspect ( i won't elaborate on that now), but even when flo went ham with the galacticos, and even though it was a failure from a sporting standpoint, the move really catapulted the club financially as well as globally.

you can't put a price on ambition , and despite the lack of moves, i have no doubt flo has huge ambition for himself and the club....him and cristiano are actually very similar in that respect. cr7 wanted to be above di stefano and flo wants to be santiago bernabeu 2.0 (imo don santiago is still the clubs greatest ever presi, that won't change)
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Post by futbol_bill Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:52 pm

guest7 wrote:
futbol_bill wrote:Whether it’s an oil sheik, Russian mafia or American businessman, it is an investment for them and they seeked to reap profits from their investments. This kid seems to think the owners or presidents put up money simply to satisfy fans!! Talk about navitity!




You are not familair with how many clubs that have flopped with an oil sheikh then... There is literally very little profit in it. It's mostly for their own PR.

Also me saying that Flo could pay for the stadium itself isn't as crazy as you make it out to be. But I respect his decision to not do it. Madrid is a club that is big enough to run itself


You should spend a little time getting educated about corporations, investments etc. before making more posts on a subject you obviously know nothing about. Your statements just illustrate how ignorant you are about corporations, investments, finance in general.


Last edited by futbol_bill on Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by farfan Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:52 pm

guest7 wrote:
futbol_bill wrote:Whether it’s an oil sheik, Russian mafia or American businessman, it is an investment for them and they seeked to reap profits from their investments. This kid seems to think the owners or presidents put up money simply to satisfy fans!! Talk about navitity!


You are not familair with how many clubs that have flopped with an oil sheikh then... There is literally very little profit in it. It's mostly for their own PR.

Also me saying that Flo could pay for the stadium itself isn't as crazy as you make it out to be. But I respect his decision to not do it. Madrid is a club that is big enough to run itself


It is crazy actually.

You are essentially asking a guy to donate hundreds of millions to an association and with no return on investment, it's ridiculous really.
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Post by futbol_bill Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:55 pm

Do you even know that Real Madrid is a non profit organization?
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Post by guest7 Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:56 pm

farfan wrote:
guest7 wrote:
futbol_bill wrote:Whether it’s an oil sheik, Russian mafia or American businessman, it is an investment for them and they seeked to reap profits from their investments. This kid seems to think the owners or presidents put up money simply to satisfy fans!! Talk about navitity!


You are not familair with how many clubs that have flopped with an oil sheikh then... There is literally very little profit in it. It's mostly for their own PR.

Also me saying that Flo could pay for the stadium itself isn't as crazy as you make it out to be. But I respect his decision to not do it. Madrid is a club that is big enough to run itself


It is crazy actually.

You are essentially asking a guy to donate hundreds of millions to an association and with no return on investment, it's ridiculous really.


Read my other posts, I said oil sheikhs do it! So it's not as far fetched as you make it out to be.
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Post by farfan Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:00 pm

guest7 wrote:
farfan wrote:
guest7 wrote:

You are not familair with how many clubs that have flopped with an oil sheikh then... There is literally very little profit in it. It's mostly for their own PR.

Also me saying that Flo could pay for the stadium itself isn't as crazy as you make it out to be. But I respect his decision to not do it. Madrid is a club that is big enough to run itself


It is crazy actually.

You are essentially asking a guy to donate hundreds of millions to an association and with no return on investment, it's ridiculous really.


Read my other posts, I said oil sheikhs do it! So it's not as far fetched as you make it out to be.


Besides the obvious fact that they have deeper pockets than Flo, oil sheiks own the teams too. Which means they will also own the stadium that they build. Flo doesn't own Real Madrid since it is a non-profit association and his tenure there is only temporary.
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