Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump?

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Post by VivaStPauli on Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:21 pm

Shit healthcare is better than no healthcare, so, baby steps.

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Post by Young Kaz on Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:25 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:Shit healthcare is better than no healthcare, so, baby steps.


You can get shit healthcare with Obamacare right now. Which Trump and Bernie shit on now.
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Post by Myesyats on Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:26 pm

@Young Kaz wrote:I mean people can be mad at the statement, but its a fact.

Unique can talk about how they fund their military and NHS, but its a failing joke. He himself goes around hating on poor african kids, which make up a minority among minorities, for the reason his mother in law cant get healthcare in the UK.

Also its easy to fund your welfare states when you know the US tax payer funding your military force is there to bail you out. US spends like 70% of NATO military spending.

Its also not a waste of Money, lest you forget some bad people who walk this earth. Russia would chomping at the bits for a piece of you if we didnt fund this military beast. Ask Ukraine if they'll play fair.

Most of this funding that USA does goes into wars in the middle east which Europe couldnt care less about.

The "US taxpayer" is bailing nobody out.

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Post by Young Kaz on Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:30 pm

@Myesyats wrote:
@Young Kaz wrote:I mean people can be mad at the statement, but its a fact.

Unique can talk about how they fund their military and NHS, but its a failing joke. He himself goes around hating on poor african kids, which make up a minority among minorities, for the reason his mother in law cant get healthcare in the UK.

Also its easy to fund your welfare states when you know the US tax payer funding your military force is there to bail you out. US spends like 70% of NATO military spending.

Its also not a waste of Money, lest you forget some bad people who walk this earth. Russia would chomping at the bits for a piece of you if we didnt fund this military beast. Ask Ukraine if they'll play fair.

Most of this funding that USA does goes into wars in the middle east which Europe couldnt care less about.

The "US taxpayer" is bailing nobody out.


You cant honestly believe the bold can you? Laughing
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:32 pm

@Myesyats wrote:
@Young Kaz wrote:I mean people can be mad at the statement, but its a fact.

Unique can talk about how they fund their military and NHS, but its a failing joke. He himself goes around hating on poor african kids, which make up a minority among minorities, for the reason his mother in law cant get healthcare in the UK.

Also its easy to fund your welfare states when you know the US tax payer funding your military force is there to bail you out. US spends like 70% of NATO military spending.

Its also not a waste of Money, lest you forget some bad people who walk this earth. Russia would chomping at the bits for a piece of you if we didnt fund this military beast. Ask Ukraine if they'll play fair.

Most of this funding that USA does goes into wars in the middle east which Europe couldnt care less about.

The "US taxpayer" is bailing nobody out.


ISIS would not have formed without the US invasion of Iraq. Consequently, the Syrian civil war would not have happened without the US invasion of Iraq. Without the Syrian civil war, the so-called refugee 'crisis' woud not be a thing.
Both of ISIS and the Syrian civil war have had a massive impact on the political climate and the policies of European nations, so the idea that US spending on war doesn't affect us is not correct.
It affects us negatively.

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Post by Young Kaz on Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:49 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Myesyats wrote:
@Young Kaz wrote:I mean people can be mad at the statement, but its a fact.

Unique can talk about how they fund their military and NHS, but its a failing joke. He himself goes around hating on poor african kids, which make up a minority among minorities, for the reason his mother in law cant get healthcare in the UK.

Also its easy to fund your welfare states when you know the US tax payer funding your military force is there to bail you out. US spends like 70% of NATO military spending.

Its also not a waste of Money, lest you forget some bad people who walk this earth. Russia would chomping at the bits for a piece of you if we didnt fund this military beast. Ask Ukraine if they'll play fair.

Most of this funding that USA does goes into wars in the middle east which Europe couldnt care less about.

The "US taxpayer" is bailing nobody out.


ISIS would not have formed without the US invasion of Iraq. Consequently, the Syrian civil war would not have happened without the US invasion of Iraq. Without the Syrian civil war, the so-called refugee 'crisis' woud not be a thing.
Both of ISIS and the Syrian civil war have had a massive impact on the political climate and the policies of European nations, so the idea that US spending on war doesn't affect us is not correct.
It affects us negatively.


I think ISIS would have always developed in some capacity due to the nature of the region, but you are right on the other points.
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Post by Hapless_Hans on Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:54 pm

@Young Kaz wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Myesyats wrote:

Most of this funding that USA does goes into wars in the middle east which Europe couldnt care less about.

The "US taxpayer" is bailing nobody out.


ISIS would not have formed without the US invasion of Iraq. Consequently, the Syrian civil war would not have happened without the US invasion of Iraq. Without the Syrian civil war, the so-called refugee 'crisis' woud not be a thing.
Both of ISIS and the Syrian civil war have had a massive impact on the political climate and the policies of European nations, so the idea that US spending on war doesn't affect us is not correct.
It affects us negatively.


I think ISIS would have always developed in some capacity due to the nature of the region, but you are right on the other points.


ISIS was co-founded by ex-Baathist generals thrown in jail together after the US took over, and thrived in the Iraq-Syrian border region where the state had been weakened as well as where insane loads of money and weapons were thrown at random anti-Assad militia (who then were just taken over by ISIS) by the CIA et. al. We all remember John McCain standing there proudly with his Djihadist friends.
So yeah, well done. What's happened in Libya is equally bad.

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Post by VivaStPauli on Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:21 pm

The whole region is a shitshow because of Saudi Arabia, who nobody can move against as long as they're backed by the US. And it's revisionist to think ISIS would've happened without the illegal-as-fuck Iraq war. Saddam was a brutal dictator, but he had the jyhadists under wraps.

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:03 pm

well, the amount of pampering and pandering to Saudia Arabia by the US is baffling, but it's of course done by every one of our countries. We Germans make our money too selling billions of € in arms to them.
Just as in Libya, the equally driving force were the French, the lovable go-to guys for atrocities in North Africa.
The Iraq war however, yeah, that's a quintessentially American achievement.

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Post by VivaStPauli on Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:09 pm

Oh yeah, we're not better. But we're also not running around crying at people to up their military spending, at least.

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Post by Unique on Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:10 pm

The NHS is the greatest thing on earth the problem is we are a small country with far to many people so it gets run into the ground but the way it works is fantastic everyone pays money in and everyone gets the same quality healthcare.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:55 am

@VivaStPauli wrote:Oh yeah, we're not better. But we're also not running around crying at people to up their military spending, at least.
tbf you are freeloading the US. They spend so much you feel that you do not need to spend the minimum required. The US should just drop their military spending, challenge you to raise yours to the NATO standard, and then let the chips fall where they may.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:59 am

@rincon wrote:Yeah I knew about that, thought it was even more stuff. It's the same kind of mental mediocrity that forces politicians to support others simply based on a perception of where they land on a simplified political ideology spectrum.

Best case scenario is about avoiding the possible PR coming from it, condemning socialism in latin america while promoting socialism in the US. Worst case scenario is the justification of authoritarianism for the promotion of his own leftist ideology, a revolting position.

From reading his comments in his past Bernie was more the "worst case", while today he seems to be more the "best case". I remember he spoke out against Maduro during the latest protests calling him a tyrant, chavez a dictator, and venezuela a disaster.

This link is great on the democrat primary candidates' positions on Venezuela
https://www.as-coa.org/articles/us-2020-democratic-candidates-venezuela#biden

I feel like Bernie only came in against Maduro once Venezuela became an unmitigated disaster. In 2016 when we all knew where this was going to end up he said zip.

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Post by Blue on Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:18 am

Imagine calling Bernie Sanders a dictator lover, for not calling them very bad man. Has he advocated for them to change US policy? nope, has he lobbied on their part? nope.

Meanwhile virtually all of the candidates support and praise Mohammad Bin Salman, Xi Jinping, and Erdogan.

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:06 pm




Smart woman. Makes very important points.

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Post by Unique on Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:44 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@VivaStPauli wrote:Oh yeah, we're not better. But we're also not running around crying at people to up their military spending, at least.
tbf you are freeloading the US. They spend so much you feel that you do not need to spend the minimum required. The US should just drop their military spending, challenge you to raise yours to the NATO standard, and then let the chips fall where they may.
nato should be scraped anyway its a waste of time and money. the only time it could have shown the world how useful it is and justify the money it costs it stood by and did nothing when the people of rwanda were murdered in the rwandan genocide. not only should it have been scraped people should have been arrested ffs.

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Post by McLewis on Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:37 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:


Smart woman. Makes very important points.


Will make an excellent Senator in the near future. She will have far more influence in that position that she ever would've as Governor of Georgia. I expect a presidential run from her in the next decade or so.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:43 pm

@Blue wrote:Imagine calling Bernie Sanders a dictator lover, for not calling them very bad man. Has he advocated for them to change US policy? nope, has he lobbied on their part? nope.


Yeah, if someone lionizes a dictator like Fidel Castro and never mentions his horrific human rights record, that troubles me. Same as it does when Trump befriends the likes of Putin and Kim Jong Un before allied countries. The fact that Bernie has to be pushed just to concede that Cuba is a dictatorship strikes me as an indication that he only grudgingly recognizes he has some flaws, but he doesn't really care about them.

@Blue wrote:Meanwhile virtually all of the candidates support and praise Mohammad Bin Salman, Xi Jinping, and Erdogan.

Typical whataboutism we've come to expect from people that have no arguments to make Rolling Eyes

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Post by rincon on Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:25 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@rincon wrote:Yeah I knew about that, thought it was even more stuff. It's the same kind of mental mediocrity that forces politicians to support others simply based on a perception of where they land on a simplified political ideology spectrum.

Best case scenario is about avoiding the possible PR coming from it, condemning socialism in latin america while promoting socialism in the US. Worst case scenario is the justification of authoritarianism for the promotion of his own leftist ideology, a revolting position.

From reading his comments in his past Bernie was more the "worst case", while today he seems to be more the "best case". I remember he spoke out against Maduro during the latest protests calling him a tyrant, chavez a dictator, and venezuela a disaster.

This link is great on the democrat primary candidates' positions on Venezuela
https://www.as-coa.org/articles/us-2020-democratic-candidates-venezuela#biden

I feel like Bernie only came in against Maduro once Venezuela became an unmitigated disaster. In 2016 when we all knew where this was going to end up he said zip.

Yep. That much seems clear, the timeline in his comments pretty much shows it. It's kind of a self destruction mechanism for some leftist politicians. The need to push an ideology brings them to (very unnecessarily) accept and endorse tyrants.

It is particularly unsettling because he does not need to relate to Castro, Chavez, etc. He loses more than he gains from it in terms of support, yet he still praised them and/or refused to condemn their crimes. He was willing to overlook decades of oppression and death just for "socialism".
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Post by CBarca on Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:51 pm

@Blue wrote:Imagine calling Bernie Sanders a dictator lover, for not calling them very bad man. Has he advocated for them to change US policy? nope, has he lobbied on their part? nope.

Meanwhile virtually all of the candidates support and praise Mohammad Bin Salman, Xi Jinping, and Erdogan.


Why do you make such outlandish statements?

You could have made the first statement and at least had a respectable post. Can you provide evidence of "virtually all" other candidates actively praising those three men you mentioned?

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Post by Blue on Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:01 am

@Hapless_Hans wrote:


Smart woman. Makes very important points.


A good amount of black politicians are supporting Mike Bloomberg, Stacey Abrams already hosted him earlier this year and takes Bloomberg money. A little bit of research on Mike Bloomberg would show that his policies as a mayor of New York should disqualify him to anyone that believe in equality. Tells you all you need to know about Stacey Abrams who has advocated for political identity then aligns herself with Bloomberg. Also as a congressional rep, she has a large donors of corporate money. She is just another politician on the take, and more importantly a hypocrite.

Earlier in this thread Ta-nehhisi Coates was mentioned. I honesty have an issue with a limitation of his, he sees white people as solely responsible for racial inequality. Truth is one must also reckon with how many black politicians are also responsible for hurting their own community. Truth is many black politicians were in favor of the crime bills of the 90s, mass incarnation, and tough on drugs.

As more black politicians endorse Mike Bloomberg, more than ever we should acknowledge these self serving politicians are one of the issues in combating racism in this country.

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:59 am

If she endorses Mike Bloomberg, my opinion of her will drop. So far AFAIK she hasn't.

But in the talk show she reiterates the point that she thinks getting people to the poll who share your principles is more important than bending ones principles to persuade Trump voters.

Does not sound like a very pro-Bloomberg argument to me, but like one that makes very much sense to me.


As for that point about Coates, I don't think that's true at all. I've read plenty of stuff by him critizing black politicians. I remember him going strongly against then-candidate Obama for peddling the "black fathers need to be more responsible" stereotype.

And honestly, if someone is writing about 'racial' inequality, that's what they're writing about, claiming they need to write about all other bad things happening too to make it valid is nonsense.
There's things may be correct but beside the point.
Unless you imply hypocrisy, this argument is what's known as whataboutism. And implying hypocrisy would only make sense if you think Coates, by arguing against racism, is also arguing that black people are all saints, which is of course nonsense.

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Post by CBarca on Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:12 pm

I'm on mobile, so I won't make a long post, but consider this:

Black politicians need to fundraise like anyone else. Politicians spend more time fundraising than doing anything else. Who are the people with the wealth and influence? Is it black people in America?

That's not to say that black politicians can't make principled stands and that all donors are racists...but these black politicians are getting money from white wealhy donors and if they want to survive, some may see that as a necessary evil. Those donors might not always have poor blacks (or poor whites) in mind. And if we're going to say this, btw, we must also admit that white politicians are doing the same thing and need to be better as well.

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Post by Blue on Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:46 am

@Hapless_Hans wrote:If she endorses Mike Bloomberg, my opinion of her will drop. So far AFAIK she hasn't.

But in the talk show she reiterates the point that she thinks getting people to the poll who share your principles is more important than bending ones principles to persuade Trump voters.

Does not sound like a very pro-Bloomberg argument to me, but like one that makes very much sense to me.


As for that point about Coates, I don't think that's true at all. I've read plenty of stuff by him critizing black politicians. I remember him going strongly against then-candidate Obama for peddling the "black fathers need to be more responsible" stereotype.

And honestly, if someone is writing about 'racial' inequality, that's what they're writing about, claiming they need to write about all other bad things happening too to make it valid is nonsense.
There's things may be correct but beside the point.
Unless you imply hypocrisy, this argument is what's known as whataboutism. And implying hypocrisy would only make sense if you think Coates, by arguing against racism, is also arguing that black people are all saints, which is of course nonsense.


I am not saying he doesn't criticize black politicians i am sure Coates does, but i don't hear it part of the discussion when systematic racism is brought up. You can not lay all of the issues of racism in this country on whites, when indeed black politicians also advocated for those policies that have hearted many minority communities in some cases.

Stacey Abrams and others is pretty much the reason i loath political identity. For some reason she is seen as a progressive politician but if you look at her record and her donors it mirrors many of the corrupt politician in our system. She has voted in favor of predatory banks, helped them avoid lawsuits. She also supported cuts to the Georgia free college program, which many receipts were from disadvantaged minority community. Her donors as a congressional rep include many large banks, Koch industry, Monsanto, and Mckesson corp. btw the later have been heavily linked with the opioid crisis. Oh she also recently took $5m from Bloomberg and hosted him.

Nobody seems to care how she is in the pocket of corporation, and her record is nothing progressive. But she is black and a women so we must assume is progressive and good.

https://theintercept.com/2018/03/23/georgia-democratic-governor-candidate-stacey-abrams-evans-gop-banks-regulation/

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bronsonstocking/2020/01/08/abrams-to-host-bloomberg-after-candidate-makes-5-million-donation-to-abrams-org-n2559191?1413

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Post by Hapless_Hans on Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:51 am

@Blue wrote:
I am not saying he doesn't criticize black politicians i am sure Coates does, but i don't hear it part of the discussion when systematic racism is brought up. You can not lay all of the issues of racism in this country on whites, when indeed black politicians also advocated for those policies that have hearted many minority communities in some cases.  


I don't think the point is to blame racism on 'white people' as such, but on an ideology of white supremacy, and on the way this ideology has shaped society and discourse over the centuries (talking about racism in the US, obviously).
And obviously, as such it affects the behaviour of EVERYONE in that society. It also shapes who is the 'whites', by the way.
But still, you've got to call it what it is. It's surely not black supremacy, is it.
It's designed to benefit the ones deemed white at the expense of the ones deemed black, and that is what it has done. And it that sense, it's impossible not to lay it "on the whites" Laughing
And honestly this is one of the things I like about Coates, and which is why his way of thinking appeals to me, because he thinks thoroughly, radically, and is surely not afraid of reflection and self-critique.
Focusing on individual morals and 'exposing' individuals as racists, as if it's merely a character flaw and not a systemic issue, is kind of misdirected IMO, and it can get on my nerves too.
Which is where, on the flip side, I understand the point your making about 'identity'

@Blue wrote:
Stacey Abrams and others is pretty much the reason i loath political identity. For some reason she is seen as a progressive politician but if you look at her record and her donors it mirrors many of the corrupt politician in our system. She has voted in favor of predatory banks, helped them avoid lawsuits. She also supported cuts to the Georgia free college program, which many receipts were from disadvantaged minority community. Her donors as a congressional rep include many large banks, Koch industry, Monsanto, and Mckesson corp. btw the later have been heavily linked with the opioid crisis. Oh she also recently took $5m from Bloomberg and hosted him.

Nobody seems to care how she is in the pocket of corporation, and her record is nothing progressive. But she is black and a women so we must assume is progressive and good.

https://theintercept.com/2018/03/23/georgia-democratic-governor-candidate-stacey-abrams-evans-gop-banks-regulation/

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bronsonstocking/2020/01/08/abrams-to-host-bloomberg-after-candidate-makes-5-million-donation-to-abrams-org-n2559191?1413


Thanks for the links.
I formed my opinion on her based on the interviews I saw with her, which I found convincing and interesting.
I'm aware I didn't dig much deeper and don't know much about her actual policy track record.
I still consider the voting rights activism she's now engaged in as much more important and fundamental than the level where we decide between candidates, and as such I don't really oppose the organization accepting the donation by Bloomberg.
Steyer is being celebrated for giving his money for progressive cause, problem with Bloomberg surely isn't that he's giving too much money for progressive causes.
Better for everyone would be of course to take it away from him  as he stole it from the public in the first place, instead of being glad that he gives away some, but I'm not going to blame Abrams for that situation.

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Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump? - Page 36 Fbl-ita-serie-a-fiorentina-ribery-5d5fe3bd55aa31c89c000018
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Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump? - Page 36 Empty Re: Who will be the Democrats' presidential candidate against Trump?

Post by McLewis on Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:26 pm

I've said it before, I'll say it again and I'm going to keep saying it: I'll vote for literally any of these candidates in the general. Without hesitation.

All of them have have issues voters will take offense to:

Biden - Wrote and championed the crime bill in the 90s that continued the mass incarceration of people (largely men) of color, prone to gaffes and is very...."touchy" with women.

Sanders - Supported Biden's crime bill and down plays the effects of racial inequality on overall social and economic inequality.

Warren - Accused Sanders of sexism, overplayed her Native American ancestry, and wouldn't admit her healthcare plan will raise taxes.

Buttigieg - Fired a black police chief and and defended the police response in his city when they killed a black teen.

Klobuchar - Prosecuted a black man and recommended a long prison sentence for the killing of a young black girl, even when evidence found someone else pulled the trigger. She's doubled-down.

Steyer - He's a billionaire.

Bloomberg - Created and enforced the Stop-and-Frisk policy and defended it as recent as 5 years ago. Bragged about targeting communities of color for increased police presence. Lobbied to change NY State's law for term limits on the Governorship to allow him to run and win a 3rd term. After that term, he then lobbied to have that law reversed so that no successor could run for a 3rd term. Also has said that taking from the rich was a bigger problem than income inequality. Oh, and he's a billionaire.
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And that's just off the top of my head. Research them and you'll find plenty of reasons not to vote for one or the other.

I'll give conservatives one major advantage over liberals: They are extremely pragmatic. They saw Trump for what he can give them (more conservative judges, for instance) and considered that a significant reason to ignore his horrible personality, twitter tirades and dumb gaffes.

Democrats and liberals lack this pragmatism and thus are constantly searching for the "perfect" antidote to Trump. One doesn't exist. Every candidate is flawed. Democrats must make their peace with which of these flaws they can live with the most and then vote accordingly in both the primaries and the general.

Trump wins if they:

- Don't vote at all
- Don't vote for a Democrat.

As much as I hate Bloomberg's policies while he was mayor of NYC and his insincere apologies, he is a significant upgrade on Trump. That's not up for dispute. If elected, his feet should and likely will be held to the fire every step of the way by the left, as it should be.

So I'll say it yet again: I'll vote for literally any of these candidates in the general. Without hesitation. Everyone who doesn't want to see Trump re-elected must have the same mindset or he will win again. If that happens, we'll have deserved another 4 years of his tyrannical rule.
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