Juventus: The Next Cycle

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Post by Luca Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:28 am

Agreed. The issue with Barzagli, Buffon or even Lichtsteiner as subs is eventually they’ll play or want to play. There will always be an inclination to go with either or both of them for some sort of safe approach to a match and we need to get as far away from this as possible

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Post by juvealbanian Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:32 am

Agree with S here. Anyway no one expected from De Sciglio to be a spectacular wingback.He's been ok and can be a solid and useful option when needed mostly in Serie A.

I still believe we don't have to spend big for a right back as I see Cuadrado as a suitable RB.Since we have Costa and Berna as wingers plus Pjaca and Manzdukic (whom we should replace with a proper winger) we are well covered in attack.

If Sandro really wants to leave we should cash in at least 55-60 m from him which could get us a good LB (with Spinazzola as backup) and the rest of the money along with yearly budget goes to reinforce our midfield.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:55 pm

We just haven't been making the moves that you need to if you want to be an elite CL team. We've overachieved and we lose the players that help us overachieve to bigger clubs.

Until this changes, the last 8 will be our home, with occasional upsets either way depending on the draw etc.

Teams that want to win the CL don't find themselves with Asamoah and MDS as full backs. They certainly don't find themselves playing a raw 20 year old kid in midfield because all of the other options are terrible (Yes Pjanic was suspended, but our two 30 year old midfielders have been deemed not good enough for the occasion)

And the CL winning clubs don't spend all day in the media sucking up to the opposition. I sincerely hope the 'next cycle' of our players aren't so happy go lucky and all smiles and compliments next time we find ourselves playing elite clubs. It's a weak mentality, it needs to stop.

No wonder our 'best' players end up with CL blunders every time they play Madrid because they build the opponents up to extreme levels in their heads judging by their comments to the media. Whereas our players that aren't half as good I.E Sturaro, Bentancur, Khedira etc end up shining because they just get on with the task at hand. We can't win finals because we don't have a second leg to bounce back after completely bottling it and letting the occasion get to us.


Ironically, watch us go to Madrid with no pressure and our experienced players will end up carrying us to a narrow victory because the pressure is off and they've got their "Omg how good are our opposition guys?" shit off their chests already.
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Post by Luca Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:59 pm

The one thing I can’t stand is lack of heart. We folded at 2-0, we let in a goal within 3 minutes, a poor goal. It’s like we knew we would lose before the match started.

Then, down a goal for the most of the game, w splayed well. Well enough to stay in this tie, then of all people, Chiellini and Buffon combine for one of the most idiotic plays you’ll ever see and Dybala, our #10 instead of rising his level decides to get sent off within 2 minutes of this.

All ending with our players smiling after a 3-0 loss. Pathetic

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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:22 pm

We act like we've lost before stepping on to the pitch. Instead of riling ourselves up and getting pumped up for a big occasion we run to the media to praise our opposition and we're all smiles and hugs. It's pretty *bleep* basic psychology, we're sending out the wrong signals.


No motivational coach ever has hugged their client to death before a gruelling workout session.

I'm losing respect for Buffon and Co. Never thought I'd say that but I am. This happy to be there nonsense is cute when you're a team of part timers playing in the World Cup. This is humiliating.


Lose to Madrid all you want, but don't act like a *bleep* semi-pro that's just won the right to play a big game for the first time.
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Post by S Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:59 pm

@Luca wrote:The one thing I can’t stand is lack of heart. We folded at 2-0, we let in a goal within 3 minutes, a poor goal. It’s like we knew we would lose before the match started.

Then, down a goal for the most of the game, w splayed well. Well enough to stay in this tie, then of all people, Chiellini and Buffon combine for one of the most idiotic plays you’ll ever see and Dybala, our #10 instead of rising his level decides to get sent off within 2 minutes of this.

All ending with our players smiling after a 3-0 loss. Pathetic


I think it's something to do with the environment the senior players create  which radiates out to others. These guys always somehow tend to get nervous and panicky in games like these. It's more and more evident when they continue to age and decline.

Even i was annoyed at the ending of the match. You just got crushed at your own home and then you proceed to laugh and hug the opposition players like you just played a Trofeo Tim friendly.

Tired of seeing Buffon literally making out with opposition players ffs
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:01 pm

I think we've went the opposite way of most big clubs, they usually create toxic every man for themselves atmospheres. We've turned into a holiday camp where there's literally no inside pressure to perform in Europe any more.

Ffs we hyped up Tottenham until beating them then we changed our tune.
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Post by Luca Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:24 pm

@S wrote:
@Luca wrote:The one thing I can’t stand is lack of heart. We folded at 2-0, we let in a goal within 3 minutes, a poor goal. It’s like we knew we would lose before the match started.

Then, down a goal for the most of the game, w splayed well. Well enough to stay in this tie, then of all people, Chiellini and Buffon combine for one of the most idiotic plays you’ll ever see and Dybala, our #10 instead of rising his level decides to get sent off within 2 minutes of this.

All ending with our players smiling after a 3-0 loss. Pathetic


I think it's something to do with the environment the senior players create  which radiates out to others. These guys always somehow tend to get nervous and panicky in games like these. It's more and more evident when they continue to age and decline.

Even i was annoyed at the ending of the match. You just got crushed at your own home and then you proceed to laugh and hug the opposition players like you just played a Trofeo Tim friendly.

Tired of seeing Buffon literally making out with opposition players ffs


It bothered me too. I'm reminded of a match from just a couple seasons ago against Bayern Munich in Torino

We go down 2-0 and rally a 2-2 draw through players like Sturaro ffs, Pure Juventus grinta. A top team in the stratosphere of Real Madrid and managed by Guardiola. Yet, we responded and made them suffer in Torino. We then went to Munich and bottled the match after going up 2-0 ourselves but the point is, we stood tall when it mattered and we fought until the end.

Yesterday, were down 2-0. Instead of trying to salvage this game, Dybala cucks us and we give up another poor goal and Real could've easily made the game 4, 5-0.

There is definitely complacency on this team now. The veterans don't care and the younger players are not good enough as it stands. I want sweat, blood and tears.

We need to clear house but it's basically upon us.

Asamoah, Lichtsteiner, Buffon, Barzagli all gone if the season ended tomorrow.
Mandzukic, Khedira really ought to leave too.
Alex Sandro/Dybala can both be sold, Higuain too.

Then we gather our funds and sign proper players. If we don't invest 100-150M into the midfield alone then there's no point

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Post by Andrew Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:41 pm

Totally, totally agreed with Luca.

This isn’t the Juventus DNA.

We need to start afresh.

Also I want AA to ask himself what Gianni would have done if he saw Juventus like this.

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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:44 pm

I'd be absolutely fine with a complete rebuild. Nobody is safe.

We don't need to delay it to win Serie A another 50 times. We'll need 3 seasons of rebuilding because we lack the money to do it in one and even if we could afford that, it rarely works like it did in 2011.
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Post by juvealbanian Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:09 pm

Agreed.
I'd rather have a Sturaro type of player who is close to zero technically for a pro but gives his all on the pitch not giving a f against whom he's playing.
We lack grinta,especially in midfield where we need to invest heavily.We need new blood.

Bentancur for example was clearly showing he's inexperienced but at least he tried and not shit his pants or praising and huging players of a team we used to crush even with the likes of Momo Sissoko on the field.

If we want to grow internationaly there is no other way but seriously aim at CHL.
It may take us at least 2-4 seasons to rebuild on younger talents but there is no point extending our veterans.
We all appreciate them and what they did is historical but it's time to move on.Maybe even for Buffon.
Which other top team keeps their players beyond 35 years? None.

I'd only keep Chiellini and probably Marchisio from the old guard.The rest can be sold or leave,they wont bring us anything on the future.

As for sales I'd be ok with Sandro leaving.Mentally he doesn't fit Juve and he will hardly imporove past his last season form at least with us.
As for other high profile sales I'd be ok with Higuain leaving only if it means we'll get a top central striker,and if course younger.Someone who is more pacy and tricky.
If not then he can stay.

We should focus on cleaning up proven mediocre players and veterans hopefully generating some profit for each one of them.We should continue our hunt for free transfers if they are at least depth quality for CHL , like Can for example.
And finally focus on bringing top young players (25-26 max) and more italian youngsters for depth and rotation.

It's time to give Rugani,Caldara and co. prove their strength.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:15 pm

----------------------Szcz--------------------
Bellerin------Caldara-------Benatia----Spinazzola
-----------SMS--------Pjanic--------Jorginho
Berna------------------Cavani----------Costa


Let's have at it lads Proud
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Post by rincon Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:18 pm

10/10 would bang
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:22 pm

Funnily enough it would be doable with the sales that are implied with that line up

Never bothered putting together a bench as that very much depends on who's available without comprimising the budget too much

I'd actually keep Asamoah unless he's dead set on leaving. Can/Keane/Cuadrado/Pjaca etc would prop it up nicely.


Energy and creativity in midfield. Two things we badly lack on the whole. Real box threat with Cavani too.

Defence would be arguably noticeably weaker than our BBC combo but as we see time and time again in Europe, you need full backs that can do damage in the final third. Attack is the best form of defence in late stage CL.

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Post by Luca Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:37 pm

I would absolutely make the implied changes to make that midfield happen.

I would go a step further and ensure that Pellegrini was also signed. Making our backups being Pellegrini, Marchisio and Bentancur with PROPER rotation

In defence I would swap Benatia with Chiellini/Rugani. Caldara I hope won’t be a 3 season project like Rugani but I think he won’t be. Spinazzola will pleasantly surprise people who don’t regularly watch Atalanta. Proper player. For right back, I’m not against Bellerin. I’m not against De Sciglio and someone like Darmian battling for a spot either.

The attack looks beautiful, fast, dynamic and hardworking. Cavani would easily suit our play more but I feel Higuain is better with the ball. I do believe in Bernardeschi and Costa and I would easily have Pjaca and Cuadrado to rotate from.

Asamoah will leave. I believe he’s rejected a renewal. He’ll surely move on

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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:46 pm

Obviously each to their own with some tweaks. Yeah Pellegrini would be a nice rotation option

My line of thinking is Bellerin is absolutely rapid and having that threat from full back is great. Marcelo and Ronaldo is on paper the most defensively absurd flank in the game but it compensates with raw firepower so i'm fine with a defensively suspect RB that spends his time pinning his opposite number back.


As for Cavani over Higuain, if we're playing with 2 wingers that are capable of crossing, it's a no brainer. Higuain is impressively unimpressive in the air for a guy who's actually quite physically imposing for a striker.


Chiellini has a place here obviously, but ideally I don't want him to be used as a starter in a big CL game any more. I'm really starting to want any player who looks scared of the big challenges in the media benched or gone. He's fine for 99% of games though.

The long term plan would be to hope Rugani comes good and he and Caldara can be the next generations Chiellini - Bonucci without the slapping our team mates and fangirling over the opposition traits.
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Post by rincon Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:10 pm

Higuain is astonishingly useless in the air. Great at everything else though, love him here.

I see we are back to the good old sell Dybala to fund a functioning 4-3-3 that fits everyone else in our team better.

Sadly, iirc, Jorginho's agent said he can't be sold in Italy or something like that (implying Juve ofc).
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:16 pm

It's a strange one

Dybala to me is only going to fulfil whatever potential he has in a 2 man strike partnership.

But that means we're stuck with literally dead formations.


I think we'd find it easier to get these Serie A players bringing some real money to the table and considering I'm not sure any club with a massive bankroll even knows who Jorginho is outside of obscure tabloid rumours

I think it can be done. At least, a similar team can be put together. But ironically this would be the one time we should start selling our players. Because the position we've been in where we think we're 1 top signing away from a CL is gone now.
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Post by rincon Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:21 pm

Yep. I'm always pro midfield 3 or 4. I've complained tons about the 4-2-3-1 (not ours, in general). Back in december I thought the same:

@rincon wrote:With how much Max changes the systems and plans through the season its hard to see how things will plan out. If Dybala comes through like at the start of the season then the 4-2-3-1 is here to stay.

If he doesn't step up/recover top form decisively, then it might a good idea to sell him as he is the only reason not to play 4-3-3 and sign a top midfielder(s).


Dybala is great, he is just a tough fit for our team. Before we had no TQ and still played 4-3-1-2. Then we signed Dybala but also added a bunch of wide players later Laughing
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Post by rincon Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:23 pm

Imo with Bernardeschi, Pjaca, Cuadrado, Costa, Higuain, Mandzukic and Kean we are solid as *bleep* in attack. That's with 0 signings and without Dybala. It might be good to cash in.

Which team would sign him? Its hard to say, specially since Barca just dropped 250m on nonsense and Dybala just got sent off against Madrid.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:26 pm

Aguero replacement maybe?

If the next Chelsea manager gets 'win me the league' backing from Roman, they'd take Dybala surely.

I think we'd definitely find suitors.

If Neymar leaves prematurely, PSG would probably do it.


Edit: Forgot United who try and rebuild their team every 6 months
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Post by Luca Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:39 pm

I've read from Jorginho's agent that he feels at home in Napoli/has been absorbed by that community in such a way that he would not want to play for another club in Italy. That, along with the price tag means it is more likely that we see him exit Serie A. However, this could all be talk. There's no way to ascertain this until the window opens and how we approach it.

With that being said, Tom's fantasy 11 is extremely plausible. When you consider it at its face value, its 4 signings versus 3 sales.... that's what we do every season anyways Proud

We need a concrete list of midfielders and we need to be on that from the jump.

If Dybala misses the World Cup it could also dampen his value, so we may be hesitant to sell if the return isn't there

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Post by Andrew Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:19 pm

You want imaginary XI’s you beautiful mofos?

Donnarumma
Florenzi - Benatia - Chiellini - Spinazzola
Pjanic - Jorginho - Verratti
Costa - Higuain - Insigne

Sirigu
De Sciglio - Rugani - Caldara - Gaya
Pellegrini - Bentancur - Marchisio
Bernardeschi - Balotelli - Chiesa

No Buffon, Szczesny, Barzagli, Lichtsteiner, Alex Sandro, Asamoah, Khedira, Sturaro, Matuidi, Cuadrado, Pjaca, Dybala, Mandzukic

Ok I overdid it but I couldn’t resist hmm

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Post by Luca Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:14 pm

Insigne, Florenzi and Donnarumma. Three players that play for teams that despise and three I hope to never see for Juve Proud

Florenzi, I will always have a soft spot for, he's a proper player and a personality you can't help but admire. However, him in a Juventus jersey is like De Rossi or Totti in one, he's Roma through and through.

Donnarumma's hype and wages are out of control as it is. No Raiola players if we can avoid it. Insigne's level is Napoli, and I just don't much like him if I'm being honest.

My team would be:

Douglas-Higuain*-Bernardeschi
Sergej-Jorginho-Pjanic
Spinazzola-Rugani-Caldara-Bellerin
Meret


I want us in for either Barella/Pellegrini this summer. The top Italian midfield talents currently.

-Main attacking subs to be Cuadrado/Pjaca
-I would be ok with Higuain leaving, I just could not think of an adequate #9 outside of Cavani- whom is possible


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Post by S Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:21 pm

@Andrew wrote:You want imaginary XI’s you beautiful mofos?

Donnarumma
Florenzi - Benatia - Chiellini - Spinazzola
Pjanic - Jorginho - Verratti
Costa - Higuain - Insigne

Sirigu
De Sciglio - Rugani - Caldara - Gaya
Pellegrini - Bentancur - Marchisio
Bernardeschi - Balotelli - Chiesa

No Buffon, Szczesny, Barzagli, Lichtsteiner, Alex Sandro, Asamoah, Khedira, Sturaro, Matuidi, Cuadrado, Pjaca, Dybala, Mandzukic


I'd rather have the current team over this

Tbh
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Post by Warrior Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:53 pm

I wouldn't want Insigne or any member of Napoli's front 3. In fact only players i'd buy from them are Jorginho and Hysaj. Those guys would have an immediate impact at Juve. I expect everyone else to downgrade by next season, i think this year we've seen the apex from Napoli as a team.

Chiesa i'm not so fond of. Hard worker and you can see the intelligence in decision making, but talent wise i don't think he can dominate the league. We are far better off with Dybala, Bernardeschi and to some extent Douglas Costa.

Rather have Sergej Milinkovic-Savic than Verratti for all the reasons i've said too many times.

Donnarumma is a dream signing sadly the sine qua non condition is he must dismiss Mino Raiola.

Rugani-Caldara are the best prospects in Italy. Of course i expect Juve to give this partnership a chance.

My team for next season, it's a decent mix of realism and dreams What a Face

HIGUAIN
BERNA-DYBALA
SERGEJ-JORGINHO-PJANIC
DE SCIGLIO-CHIELLINI-BENATIA-HYSAJ
SZCESZNY


subs
QUAG-SIMEONE
DOUGLAS-PELLEGRINI-MARCHISIO-CUADRADO
SPINAZZOLA-CALDARA-RUGANI-DARMIAN
BUFFON
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