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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:24 pm

McLewis wrote:Only 2 things can stop Trump now: Mueller's Investigation and the 2018 midterms.

I think Trump will come out of the investigation unscathed, but members of his family and cabinet won't be so lucky. Can't rely on that.

The Democrats must win back Congress. I personally think they are spineless cowards with no real agenda of their own , but I think they know better now and won't make the same mistake twice.

The GOP losing control of Congress would signal the end for Trump's dangerously stupid agenda and everyone will be better off for it.


GOP infighting is much more effective at making Trump ineffective IMO.

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Post by Unique Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:57 pm

not sure why people get on trumps back about his ideas on getting tough with border control. America is the most hated country in the world. in fact I think its only Britain that are friends with them.
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Post by rincon Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:10 pm

Its not about getting tough with border control, its about the absurd ideas he proposes for it.

The US-Mexico border is over 3000 km long and he wants to build a pointless wall around it.

He bans people travelling that have ties to certain countries regardless regardless of its effect to a ton of innocent people, all done in a rush.

He wanted to repeal the dream act, and deport a group of people with no blame of their parents moves, and that may have lived their whole lives in the US without another place to go. These people need to have a high school degree, not have any criminal background, sign up for military service, and a college degree or have served in the military. On this he even backpedaled a bit.

If he was proposing measures that made sense, then its a different story. Let him be tough on border control, but have him do it right.
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Post by Freeza Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:50 pm

rincon wrote:Its not about getting tough with border control, its about the absurd ideas he proposes for it.

The US-Mexico border is over 3000 km long and he wants to build a pointless wall around it.

He bans people travelling that have ties to certain countries regardless regardless of its effect to a ton of innocent people, all done in a rush.

He wanted to repeal the dream act, and deport a group of people with no blame of their parents moves, and that may have lived their whole lives in the US without another place to go. These people need to have a high school degree, not have any criminal background, sign up for military service, and a college degree or have served in the military. On this he even backpedaled a bit.

If he was proposing measures that made sense, then its a different story. Let him be tough on border control, but have him do it right.


It's also the fact that the basis of these bans and borders are terrorism, despite there only being terrorists in USA that were born there and are citizens. And a lot of white ones at that. The fact he isn't banning our European countries then just means it's because of Trump's hate of latinos and muslims.





Seems like something finally is happening with Flynn though. He has agreed to a plea deal after pleading guilty.
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Post by Unique Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:02 pm

my understanding is trump wants a upgrade on the us-mexico wall that's been there for years anyway. a clamp down on illegal immigration ( no ban on people that go through legal channels ) and his travel ban was from high risk countries plus it was not a out right ban it was just a very strict vetting system.
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Post by Freeza Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:07 pm

Unique wrote:my understanding is trump wants a upgrade on the us-mexico wall that's been there for years anyway. a clamp down on illegal immigration ( no ban on people that go through legal channels ) and his travel ban was from high risk countries plus it was not a out right ban it was just a very strict vetting system.


There already was a strict vetting proces, which is why there never came any terrorists in from those countries?
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Post by Unique Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:11 pm

Freeza wrote:
Unique wrote:my understanding is trump wants a upgrade on the us-mexico wall that's been there for years anyway. a clamp down on illegal immigration ( no ban on people that go through legal channels ) and his travel ban was from high risk countries plus it was not a out right ban it was just a very strict vetting system.


There already was a strict vetting proces, which is why there never came any terrorists in from those countries?
so trump has not changed anything really.
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Post by CBarca Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:15 pm

McLewis wrote:Only 2 things can stop Trump now: Mueller's Investigation and the 2018 midterms.

I think Trump will come out of the investigation unscathed, but members of his family and cabinet won't be so lucky. Can't rely on that.

The Democrats must win back Congress. I personally think they are spineless cowards with no real agenda of their own , but I think they know better now and won't make the same mistake twice.

The GOP losing control of Congress would signal the end for Trump's dangerously stupid agenda and everyone will be better off for it.


Curious as to how you feel about Trump unscathed now after the Flynn news. I would figure that you had already factored in that Flynn was probably cooperating, but there is a lot to be said about this plea deal (and the certainty that Flynn has been cooperating, and probably has been for some time).

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-flynns-guilty-plea-is-bad-for-trump-in-lots-of-ways/

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/01/politics/mike-flynn-indictment-analysis/index.html

I'm not convinced that this will be the end of Trump, but I don't think there is any arguing that this is the beginning of a new chapter, which very well could have a finale of Trump's end as POTUS. We must wait and see, but this is going in an interesting direction, and much faster than I thought it would.

Also nice news considering the tax bill will probably pass.
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Post by Unique Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:21 pm

so if trump does get hounded out of office who becomes president. do they have a new election.
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Post by CBarca Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:25 pm

Order of Succession to the POTUS

Vice President Mike Pence
Speaker of the House Paul Ryan
Senate President Pro Tempore Orrin Hatch.
Secretary of State Rex Tillerson.
Secretary of the Treasury Steven Mnuchin.
Secretary of Defense James Mattis.
Attorney General Jeff Sessions.

EDIT: This means Pence is your answer. If Pence was caught up in investigation or died, Paul Ryan--if dead or caught up in crime as well, Orrin Hatch and so on in the order given
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Post by McLewis Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:12 am

CBarca wrote:
McLewis wrote:Only 2 things can stop Trump now: Mueller's Investigation and the 2018 midterms.

I think Trump will come out of the investigation unscathed, but members of his family and cabinet won't be so lucky. Can't rely on that.

The Democrats must win back Congress. I personally think they are spineless cowards with no real agenda of their own , but I think they know better now and won't make the same mistake twice.

The GOP losing control of Congress would signal the end for Trump's dangerously stupid agenda and everyone will be better off for it.


Curious as to how you feel about Trump unscathed now after the Flynn news. I would figure that you had already factored in that Flynn was probably cooperating, but there is a lot to be said about this plea deal (and the certainty that Flynn has been cooperating, and probably has been for some time).

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-flynns-guilty-plea-is-bad-for-trump-in-lots-of-ways/

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/01/politics/mike-flynn-indictment-analysis/index.html

I'm not convinced that this will be the end of Trump, but I don't think there is any arguing that this is the beginning of a new chapter, which very well could have a finale of Trump's end as POTUS. We must wait and see, but this is going in an interesting direction, and much faster than I thought it would.

Also nice news considering the tax bill will probably pass.


Color me jaded, but I think this is a road that has already been traveled. Yes, it's bad for Trump that Flynn is cooperating with Mueller, but I still think they are quite a ways away from tying Trump directly with Russia. Depending on what Flynn has to say, it's Jared Kushner who's directly in the crosshairs right now. I think that might be as high as this gets honestly unless an actual bombshell gets dropped (I'm talking audio tapes, video, verified text, something) that removes all doubt that Trump was in on this. That would be a certifiable game-changer, but I just haven't seen that yet. We knew Flynn would eventually flip like a pancake to protect his son so this isn't really earth-shattering to me.

So this is why I think he's still going to come out of this relatively unscathed, meaning he's not going to be charged and he's definitely not going to indicted. At best, he'll be impeached if the Dems win Congress for any number of reasons.
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Post by McLewis Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:18 am

I'll say it again though......We have to endure a moron like Trump to ensure this never happens again. That's the only way we'll learn that it's not ok to let a clueless numbskull like him run this country.

Also - The generation that elected him are dying off at a clip of 2% a year. so time will certainly repair this wound. Eventually, this will be seen as a dark age we suffered through and then got better because of.
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Post by CBarca Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:05 pm

McLewis wrote:I'll say it again though......We have to endure a moron like Trump to ensure this never happens again. That's the only way we'll learn that it's not ok to let a clueless numbskull like him run this country.

Also - The generation that elected him are dying off at a clip of 2% a year. so time will certainly repair this wound. Eventually, this will be seen as a dark age we suffered through and then got better because of.


While his base has faded, the vast majority of his supporters still support him and Republicans by and large seem to like him.

No part of me is convinced that America is going to learn from this, as far as the right is concerned. I can concede that Trump, Bannonism and his ilk of alt right ideology could potentially split the party and then America would learn, but the GOP knows they have to be united. I think the GOP will continue to back alt righters just so dems don't get in power, and hope that eventually the movement loses steam (which it should). I think this brand of politics isn't going to disappear due to Trump, but from the fact that these kinds of nativist and nationalist politics pop up every now and again and never really last long.

The point of all this is to say: another Trump will show up again, we just don't know when. This "experiment" I don't think will be a one time thing, as bad as it has been. I do think we'll be better for it though because I expect youth and minority turnout to improve from here on out for a while.

Re: Flynn. What do you make of the trend of thought that since Flynn is pleading guilty on the charges of lying to the FBI when there are far worse charges out there, Flynn is likely either:

1) incriminating those above him (most likely Pence or Trump)
or
2) incriminating a multitude of people on a similar level or slightly lower level to him (Kushner, Sessions, Trump Jr, possibly more) which would be useful for then getting to higher level

It's pretty bad no matter how you look at it. Though I will agree that short of some sort of undeniable evidence, even Mueller recommending a large multitude of charges will not see the GOP impeach. I do think Tump is untouchable to the GOP, since the entire party has gone batshit insane
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Post by RealGunner Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:58 pm

So..republicans forced through a bill without allowing anyone to read...?

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Post by Freeza Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:00 pm

RealGunner wrote:So..republicans forced through a bill without allowing anyone to read...?



They had handwritten notes in the margins... absolutely despicable party. How anyone can support this madness rofl
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Post by Unique Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:26 pm

Man I love trump more every day Laughing the guy is dictating the shit out of that job. Making people vote for stuff and won’t let them read it. Laughing
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Post by Freeza Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:29 pm

Unique wrote:Man I love trump more every day Laughing the guy is dictating the shit out of that job. Making people vote for stuff and won’t let them read it. Laughing


This is not Trump though. This is Republicans.

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Post by Unique Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:33 pm

Freeza wrote:
Unique wrote:Man I love trump more every day Laughing the guy is dictating the shit out of that job. Making people vote for stuff and won’t let them read it. Laughing


This is not Trump though. This is Republicans.

you have to be a special kind of stupid to vote for something without reading it. Laughing
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:01 pm

Unique wrote:
Freeza wrote:
Unique wrote:Man I love trump more every day Laughing the guy is dictating the shit out of that job. Making people vote for stuff and won’t let them read it. Laughing


This is not Trump though. This is Republicans.

you have to be a special kind of stupid to vote for something without reading it. Laughing


I agree, but I'd bet that 80% of representatives in most western parliaments don't read 80% of the bills they vote on.

You think any of those clown read through 800 pages of a health care bill?

Dems have their staffers read it and have those give them the tl:dr version

Republicans check with the NRA-, pharma- or respective lobby group how they are supposed to vote and do it
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Post by CBarca Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:53 pm

I love Unique's worldview. It's like seeing the world through the eyes of a kid

Imagine thinking that your representatives read the legislation they voted on personally. Imagine thinking we could just get rid of religion. Imagine thinking that the EU was siphoning off funds without any benefit to the UK. Imagine thinking Trump was "dictating" anything more than the writing in his diary. Imagine thinking the UK can just leave the EU, telling them to sod off and being better off for it.

Lives in a world where things like politics are simple and solutions are usually a one step fix Proud
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Post by Unique Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:06 pm

CBarca wrote:I love Unique's worldview. It's like seeing the world through the eyes of a kid

Imagine thinking that your representatives read the legislation they voted on personally. Imagine thinking we could just get rid of religion. Imagine thinking that the EU was siphoning off funds without any benefit to the UK. Imagine thinking Trump was "dictating" anything more than the writing in his diary. Imagine thinking the UK can just leave the EU, telling them to sod off and being better off for it.

Lives in a world where things like politics are simple and solutions are usually a one step fix Proud
and imagine a world where the usa and uk has more people that think like me than people that think like you. cheers
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Post by futbol Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:28 pm

Unique wrote:
CBarca wrote:I love Unique's worldview. It's like seeing the world through the eyes of a kid

Imagine thinking that your representatives read the legislation they voted on personally. Imagine thinking we could just get rid of religion. Imagine thinking that the EU was siphoning off funds without any benefit to the UK. Imagine thinking Trump was "dictating" anything more than the writing in his diary. Imagine thinking the UK can just leave the EU, telling them to sod off and being better off for it.

Lives in a world where things like politics are simple and solutions are usually a one step fix Proud
and imagine a world where the usa and uk has more people that think like me than people that think like you. cheers


Which brings us back to my point about 20 % of Americans not being able to spot the US on a map. Proud

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Post by Unique Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:42 pm

futbol wrote:
Unique wrote:
CBarca wrote:I love Unique's worldview. It's like seeing the world through the eyes of a kid

Imagine thinking that your representatives read the legislation they voted on personally. Imagine thinking we could just get rid of religion. Imagine thinking that the EU was siphoning off funds without any benefit to the UK. Imagine thinking Trump was "dictating" anything more than the writing in his diary. Imagine thinking the UK can just leave the EU, telling them to sod off and being better off for it.

Lives in a world where things like politics are simple and solutions are usually a one step fix Proud
and imagine a world where the usa and uk has more people that think like me than people that think like you. cheers


Which brings us back to my point about 20 % of Americans not being able to spot the US on a map. Proud
and yet nobody said that when Obama became president.
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Post by McLewis Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:36 pm

The Democrats aren't innocent when it comes to forcing through bills though.

They famously did it with the ACA when Pelosi literally said "You have to pass the bill in order to read what's in it."

That's just as bad as what the GOP have done imo. The ACA itself, flawed though it is, was a step in the right direction, but the means to which it was pushed through were terrible.

That said, this bill is still a disaster and I hope it fails in reconciliation because if Trump signs this into law, millions are going to be screwed.
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Post by CBarca Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:13 pm

To be fair, I was too young to care, or follow the passing of the ACA. I'm also sure that the Dems weren't exactly forthcoming regarding it, considering how big of a change it was, and how likely Republicans were to oppose it (as well as the general public, which didn't have, as far as I know, a positive view on it, though not as bad as recent Republican attempts).

With that being said, your version of how it went is not exactly the version I've heard:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/10/us/republican-health-care-process.html

Again, I didn't care at the time, I was too young. Perhaps the story told by this article is not accurate, but at the very least, I think equivocating the Dems and the Republicans on this issue is...not right, to my knowledge.
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Post by rincon Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:38 pm

So Trump admitted to obstruction of justice on twitter and then the white house had to come out and say that the tweet was written by Trump's lawyer, and not by Trump himself rofl
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