Larisano Special: Dear Mr.Batista/New Argie Coach...

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Post by The Franchise Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:49 pm

@shinigami99 wrote:
That Lineup I gave was for 2014.....not RIGHT now...Samuel would be too old imo(not sure if he would still be playing) and he would have to be in REALLY good form if he was still playing.

Also in my ideal formation, I would rather not use the '86 lineup because fullbacks are an important part of the modern game and add alot both offensively and defensively. We just need to find the correct full backs.

Yeah, but guessing a line up and then picking it now, for 3 years time isnt possible.

I already said I disagree about Samuel, so lets leave that there.

I have also discussed fullback, maybe you can go back and find it and answer the questions I posed?

As for the "correct fullbacks" would you like to name them? Because from what I see, you dont have them.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:22 am

Lionel Messi wrote:Garay Otamendi and probably Munoz are probably going to be our CBs for the 2014 WC unless some youngsters make a breakthrough or something
I have very high hopes for Musacchio, as I always do when it comes to Argentina and our players Laughing
But I definitely do think he will develop better than Muñoz
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Post by Albiceleste Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:33 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:Garay Otamendi and probably Munoz are probably going to be our CBs for the 2014 WC unless some youngsters make a breakthrough or something
I have very high hopes for Musacchio, as I always do when it comes to Argentina and our players Laughing
But I definitely do think he will develop better than Muñoz
Time will tell

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Post by FennecFox7 Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:42 am

@The Franchise wrote:
Giggity5313 wrote:Let's not forget higuain had one of those nasty back injuries, lets give him time then we can judge if lopez is a better true 9 then higgy lol

Did you read what I wrote?

yes, but you said true number 9, and imho higuain has that
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Post by shinigami99 Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:44 am

@The Franchise wrote:
@shinigami99 wrote:
That Lineup I gave was for 2014.....not RIGHT now...Samuel would be too old imo(not sure if he would still be playing) and he would have to be in REALLY good form if he was still playing.

Also in my ideal formation, I would rather not use the '86 lineup because fullbacks are an important part of the modern game and add alot both offensively and defensively. We just need to find the correct full backs.

Yeah, but guessing a line up and then picking it now, for 3 years time isnt possible.

I already said I disagree about Samuel, so lets leave that there.

I have also discussed fullback, maybe you can go back and find it and answer the questions I posed?

As for the "correct fullbacks" would you like to name them? Because from what I see, you dont have them.

Lol, I wasn't GUESSING the lineup...I was merely giving my opinion on what the lineup should be(based on the potential of youngsters we have now) IF we used your formation. Predicting the future is not possible I agree.

As for the fullback situation, Ivan Pillud has shown a lot of promise in that position playing in the domestic team as a right back(he plays for Racing club in Argentina). For our left back........Ansaldi has impressed(he was the only positive that came out of that dreadful U-25 B team IMO). Zabaletta is very mediocre but should not be more than a backup to Pillud. As for a backup for leftback.....I think Marcos Rojo can do the job. Point is, we haven't tried the right combination yet. And you have to also account for the fact that teams that look good on paper doesn't mean it will work. That's what Sabella is there for.

We have no Dani Alves, but we should have someone get close to his kind of play to compete in the next WC
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Post by Albiceleste Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:50 am

Emiliano Insua as well can go into left back

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Post by messixaviesta Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:36 am

@The Franchise wrote:
But JD, the team of 90 wasnt the team of 86'. I understand what your saying, but lets face it, its not like anyone else has a perfect idea of how this Argentina team should play or line up. When its like that, maybe its best to go back to what has worked before. Of course that is only a wise option if the conditions are right for it, I believe they are.

As for the negative line up. Two things. Di Maria, Messi, Higuain and Pastore are all playing. That is one more 1/3 player then the team at the Copa at least on paper. Who is being left out which would cause such a stir? Tevez? His presence in the Copa team was a big factor in the Argentina playing bad in my opinion. Aguero would still be on the bench, like he was....I am struggling to think of who else you are talking about.

Secondly, winning shuts nearly everyone up, especially if you have not won in a very long time.

Great reply. Yes you are right that having Di Maria further behind may make the team a little more attacking and have better movement. I am not asking for Tevez. Smile Aguero is the one I meant above all. Then again you are right. We do have four flair players on. Winning indeed would help. At the moment it's hard to say when this team will start winning again. Sad

On second thoughts your ideas do sound very interesting. This team does need a tactical rethink because at the moment it's going nowhere. Also would like to highlight your point about Bilardo being an excellent tactician. When people compare what Messi does to what Maradona did, they should not forget that Maradona had a much better coach.

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Post by messixaviesta Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:38 am

One thought that struck me about dani's formation. It is a little on the lines of what alex suggested about a counter-attacking system. So how is this different or better than what alex had suggested? I think one problem in alex's formation was that Aguero was being used on the wing where I think he doesn't work well. What dani has done is put Aguero on the bench and have J.Zanetti play that role instead. In spite of the veteran's age that does make some sense in terms of flank play. Another point is that as per dani's formation having an extra resolute center back gives more of an advantage than a full back like Zabaleta who cannot add anything much to attack or even worse a defensively weak full back. dani's formation now allows us to add one more player which in this case is Pastore who can provide a little more link between midfield and attack. One last advantage is that now Messi can move closer to goal which is what we all want. The essential style of playing is not too different. However this team does look slightly better in terms of the personnel and their roles.

P.S. - I didn't expect a post like this from dani since he has hardly ever been big on history. However as he said he did some reading. What is clear though is that this is such an interesting puzzle which motivates so many of us to rack our brains and try to find a solution to it. Smile Despite my initial skepticism I have to say this is a wonderfully innovative post and one of the best of it's kind that I have seen in a long time.


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Post by The Franchise Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:26 pm

Giggity5313 wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
Giggity5313 wrote:Let's not forget higuain had one of those nasty back injuries, lets give him time then we can judge if lopez is a better true 9 then higgy lol

Did you read what I wrote?

yes, but you said true number 9, and imho higuain has that

I also said, more then once, Higuain has been injured for a long time and we have to see what he can do before making him a starting player in any team.
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Post by The Franchise Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:31 pm

@shinigami99 wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
@shinigami99 wrote:
That Lineup I gave was for 2014.....not RIGHT now...Samuel would be too old imo(not sure if he would still be playing) and he would have to be in REALLY good form if he was still playing.

Also in my ideal formation, I would rather not use the '86 lineup because fullbacks are an important part of the modern game and add alot both offensively and defensively. We just need to find the correct full backs.

Yeah, but guessing a line up and then picking it now, for 3 years time isnt possible.

I already said I disagree about Samuel, so lets leave that there.

I have also discussed fullback, maybe you can go back and find it and answer the questions I posed?

As for the "correct fullbacks" would you like to name them? Because from what I see, you dont have them.

Lol, I wasn't GUESSING the lineup...I was merely giving my opinion on what the lineup should be(based on the potential of youngsters we have now) IF we used your formation. Predicting the future is not possible I agree.

As for the fullback situation, Ivan Pillud has shown a lot of promise in that position playing in the domestic team as a right back(he plays for Racing club in Argentina). For our left back........Ansaldi has impressed(he was the only positive that came out of that dreadful U-25 B team IMO). Zabaletta is very mediocre but should not be more than a backup to Pillud. As for a backup for leftback.....I think Marcos Rojo can do the job. Point is, we haven't tried the right combination yet. And you have to also account for the fact that teams that look good on paper doesn't mean it will work. That's what Sabella is there for.

We have no Dani Alves, but we should have someone get close to his kind of play to compete in the next WC

I know you wasnt guessing exactly, but what I am trying to say is, its pretty much impossible guessing a line up for 3 years time at this point.

As for fullback, I havent seen Pillud, I hope he gets a call up and we can see him.

I liked Ansaldi actually, but I only seen half a dozen games. I am quite confused as to why he hasnt been used up untill now.

I dont think Rojo has the ability to be a fulltime leftback, as in, he doesnt seem dynamic enough at all.

Overall, I dont see great fullbacks at all, to me, its a real weak point. I also dont think its luck they arent around, its developmental. Somewhere along the way, fullbacks have stopped coming out of Argentina.

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Post by The Franchise Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:35 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:One thought that struck me about dani's formation. It is a little on the lines of what alex suggested about a counter-attacking system. So how is this different or better than what alex had suggested? I think one problem in alex's formation was that Aguero was being used on the wing where I think he doesn't work well. What dani has done is put Aguero on the bench and have J.Zanetti play that role instead. In spite of the veteran's age that does make some sense in terms of flank play. Another point is that as per dani's formation having an extra resolute center back gives more of an advantage than a full back like Zabaleta who cannot add anything much to attack or even worse a defensively weak full back. dani's formation now allows us to add one more player which in this case is Pastore who can provide a little more link between midfield and attack. One last advantage is that now Messi can move closer to goal which is what we all want. The essential style of playing is not too different. However this team does look slightly better in terms of the personnel and their roles.

P.S. - I didn't expect a post like this from dani since he has hardly ever been big on history. However as he said he did some reading. What is clear though is that this is such an interesting puzzle which motivates so many of us to rack our brains and try to find a solution to it. Smile Despite my initial skepticism I have to say this is a wonderfully innovative post and one of the best of it's kind that I have seen in a long time.


Well thanks for the kind words JD, thanks alot.

The last 6 months, I have indeed been investigating football history with alot more depth. Because of this, I think I can join in those type of discussions alot more often and with a better opinion.

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Post by messixaviesta Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:54 pm

@The Franchise wrote:

Overall, I dont see great fullbacks at all, to me, its a real weak point. I also dont think its luck they arent around, its developmental. Somewhere along the way, fullbacks have stopped coming out of Argentina.


Some time back alfred had explained this to me. Unlike Brazil, Argentina don't believe so much in full backs. The traditional thinking is that defenders should defend while attackers should attack. Can you seriously think of any country which would not take a player like Javier Zanetti to two consecutive world cups? What was his wrong doing? As far as I know he has never had a major fight with anyone. Quality, discipline, stamina, resilience, is there anything the man lacks? His only fault was that he is a full back and Argentines don't value that kind of footballer. Sad

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Post by Albiceleste Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:30 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:

Overall, I dont see great fullbacks at all, to me, its a real weak point. I also dont think its luck they arent around, its developmental. Somewhere along the way, fullbacks have stopped coming out of Argentina.


Some time back alfred had explained this to me. Unlike Brazil, Argentina don't believe so much in full backs. The traditional thinking is that defenders should defend while attackers should attack. Can you seriously think of any country which would not take a player like Javier Zanetti to two consecutive world cups? What was his wrong doing? As far as I know he has never had a major fight with anyone. Quality, discipline, stamina, resilience, is there anything the man lacks? His only fault was that he is a full back and Argentines don't value that kind of footballer. Sad
Quite sad, but he was class and sent the players that did go texts with encouraging words and wished them luck, legend.

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Post by The Franchise Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:01 pm

Makes sense about fullbacks. But there has been one or two, guys like Sorin for example.

Someone like him would be terrific right now.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:25 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:

Overall, I dont see great fullbacks at all, to me, its a real weak point. I also dont think its luck they arent around, its developmental. Somewhere along the way, fullbacks have stopped coming out of Argentina.


Some time back alfred had explained this to me. Unlike Brazil, Argentina don't believe so much in full backs. The traditional thinking is that defenders should defend while attackers should attack. Can you seriously think of any country which would not take a player like Javier Zanetti to two consecutive world cups? What was his wrong doing? As far as I know he has never had a major fight with anyone. Quality, discipline, stamina, resilience, is there anything the man lacks? His only fault was that he is a full back and Argentines don't value that kind of footballer. Sad

Yeah, I wish I still had that PM I sent you because I think I explained it quite well and the details are no longer as fresh in my mind. But basically, the problem is dual. On one end, when kids are developing they are discouraged from becoming FBs because they are not as valued and are seen as the likeliest players to get shafted (FBs are the likeliest to get subbed out for a forward when the team is losing, and have a threat from the 3 defender line). I suspect a lack of many role models in this position also contributes. Whereas in Brazil kids want to become the next Cafu, Dani Alves, Maicon, Roberto Carlos, and the list keeps going we only have had Sorin and Zanetti as exemplary players in the position over the past decade. This causes the ones that defend well to become CBs and the ones that attack well into wingers and midfielders.

Because of this lack of FBs, managers in Argentina don't really know how to use them properly and are thus much more prone to playing technical CBs in their positions, but CBs nevertheless. Maradona, who admittedly is not a perfect example, said "I don't want Otamendi and Heinze to reach the last 30 meters, for that I have Di Maria and Jonas". Consequently, managers raised in Argentina don't really know how to make the most of FBs and are likely to value other, more defensive, traits. Which only causes the first point to get reinforced.

Good article about it for Spanish speakers (yes, it's yet another Juan Pablo Varsky article Laughing). It does a nice historical perspective part where it explains that FBs have never quite been our forte, and are simply not part of our culture.
http://www.canchallena.com/1264218-laterales-maradona-respeto-la-tradicion-argentina

So long story short we need to make some Argentine forwards into Italians in exchange for some of their FBs, because we're definitely not going to make them Laughing
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Post by The Franchise Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:31 pm

Thats really interesting man, very interesting.

Dont you think considering that limitation, instead of forcing players who arent able to play those positions, simply just choose a formation in which you can do without fullbacks?
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:47 pm

Well it's not that we produce no FBs, it's just that we produce proportionately less and consequently of a lower quality. Also, Argentina does compete in international competitions such as the Sudamericana and the Libertadores, and we do get FBs from other neighboring countries, so I wouldn't say that fullbacks are expendable in Argentina. Just not as good because of the points mentioned above, and often with more defensive roles.
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Post by The Franchise Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:56 pm

I see.

To be honest, I think tactics should be about getting the best players on the pitch will having a balance and the team being strong because of that balance.

I think, at the moment, you dont have fullbacks which match the quality at other areas of the pitch (even centerback I feel is considerably stronger) so why use them?

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Post by messixaviesta Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:09 am

@The Franchise wrote:Makes sense about fullbacks. But there has been one or two, guys like Sorin for example.

Someone like him would be terrific right now.

Good example. Unfortunately then coach Jose Pekerman had what could be called a brain damage. He had both Sorin and J.Zanetti to use on left and right flank respectively but he decided to leave the legend at home. lari has explained before how he believes we wouldn't have conceded that equalizer against Germany if J.Zanetti was playing right back.

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