Larisano Special: Dear Mr.Batista/New Argie Coach...

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:38 pm

All the names that are being rumored have a reasonable amount of experience. Bianchi is the best argentine coach in the past 20 years, Sabella only has two years worth of managing but has been Pasarella's assistant and already has a Libertadores in his trophy cabinet, and Martino has been doing great for Paraguay (although I don't want him at all, his style is too negative). So I don't think experience is much of a concern. Sabella looks likeliest to get the role, if rumors are to be believed.

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Post by messixaviesta Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:23 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:All the names that are being rumored have a reasonable amount of experience. Bianchi is the best argentine coach in the past 20 years, Sabella only has two years worth of managing but has been Pasarella's assistant and already has a Libertadores in his trophy cabinet, and Martino has been doing great for Paraguay (although I don't want him at all, his style is too negative). So I don't think experience is much of a concern. Sabella looks likeliest to get the role, if rumors are to be believed.

I have also heard that Sabella is the favorite. Bianchi will not get it because Grondona doesn't like him. Sad I too don't want Martino for the same reason.

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Post by Albiceleste Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:13 pm

@free_cat wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
@BarcaKizz wrote:

No idea what these coaches have been thinking with Argentina. Though, as long as I can remember now (just about) Argentina have been a team who have flopped. They seem like the kind of team that would really frustrate the nation's people, but maybe the underperformance is indeed something cultural.
My father told me the other day after crashing out of the Copa that "Se sufre con la seleccion" which means that you suffer with the national team, and ever since I can remember that's what it has been :/

You are an Argentine living in Miami?
Yes I am in fact

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Post by The Franchise Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:08 am

Wasnt sure where to put this, but this is my opinion of what I would do if I was in charge of Argentina.

Its the exact copy of Argentina in 86, I think it can work.

Below is Argentina 86'.

Larisano Special: Dear Mr.Batista/New Argie Coach... - Page 2 173321_Argentina


Below, my modern day re-interpretation.


Larisano Special: Dear Mr.Batista/New Argie Coach... - Page 2 173327_Argentina


The one and only question mark I have is Pastore. Its not his position or the fact he is a number 10. Burruchaga was a number 10 and sometimes a striker. Its Pastore's current ability and experience as a player. Burruchaga was 24 and had played nearly 200 games by the 86' WC. He was a excellent player in his own right and near his prime in all facets of the game. Pastore is only a month past his 22nd birthday and just about played 100.

That being said, he is as good an option as there is and its not like his naivety will give the team defensive problems, its what this solid base behind it is for.

Messi doing the Maradona type thing, given the freedom to go wherever he wants.

I went for Lopez simply because he is a legit number 9 and I believe that is what is needed.

Milito seems finished and we have to see what happens with Higuain.

Di Maria has shown the appetite needed to defend and obviously he has the attacking chops.

3 defenders gives the impression of solidarity no 2 Argentines have together and perhaps this can solve some of the woes back there.

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Post by Albiceleste Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:08 am

I'd go with Higuain for sure, and I'm not too convinced on the formation tbh, I don't think we have the right players for it. Although Di Maria would provide alot of running and defense as well as Zanetti but I think Zanetti should be done with the NT considering he wont be in the 2014 WC.

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Post by shinigami99 Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:39 am

@The Franchise wrote:Wasnt sure where to put this, but this is my opinion of what I would do if I was in charge of Argentina.

Its the exact copy of Argentina in 86, I think it can work.

Below is Argentina 86'.

Larisano Special: Dear Mr.Batista/New Argie Coach... - Page 2 173321_Argentina


Below, my modern day re-interpretation.


Larisano Special: Dear Mr.Batista/New Argie Coach... - Page 2 173327_Argentina


The one and only question mark I have is Pastore. Its not his position or the fact he is a number 10. Burruchaga was a number 10 and sometimes a striker. Its Pastore's current ability and experience as a player. Burruchaga was 24 and had played nearly 200 games by the 86' WC. He was a excellent player in his own right and near his prime in all facets of the game. Pastore is only a month past his 22nd birthday and just about played 100.

That being said, he is as good an option as there is and its not like his naivety will give the team defensive problems, its what this solid base behind it is for.

Messi doing the Maradona type thing, given the freedom to go wherever he wants.

I went for Lopez simply because he is a legit number 9 and I believe that is what is needed.

Milito seems finished and we have to see what happens with Higuain.

Di Maria has shown the appetite needed to defend and obviously he has the attacking chops.

3 defenders gives the impression of solidarity no 2 Argentines have together and perhaps this can solve some of the woes back there.


Pretty Good lineup but LiLo is/would be old and I would rather Higuain/ Kun in the advanced attacking positions. Zanetti is pretty much done with the NT(not that he had a bad copa, it was not bad) so in that position I would probably put Lamela(he would be old enough by then) or ricky alvarez(depending on how he plays this season). Also, I would take out cambiasso and put in Banega( or even Gago) to make it more attacking.

If we use your formation, Here's how I would line up(2014)
------------------------------Romero(andrada)------------------
---Musacchio(Fazio)-----Otamendi(Munoz)-----Pareja(mediocre CB)---
---------------------------Mascherano(Cambiasso)
--Lamela(pillud)----Pastore(Alvarez)-----Banega(Gago)--------Di Maria(Perotti)
-----------------------------Messi(Iturbe)-------------------------
-----------------------------Higuain(Kun)---------------------------------
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:17 am

I don't know if Lamela can play as a winger there, does he have the work rate for it?

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Post by shinigami99 Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:23 am

Lionel Messi wrote:I don't know if Lamela can play as a winger there, does he have the work rate for it?
not too sure actually.....I haven't seen him too much in action......which is why I'm watching this U-20 WC very carefully
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:27 am

I watched him in the super clasico and he was very impressive, best player for River by far, he was pulling the strings with Argentina vs Mexico and topped it off with a wonderful goal and when Iturbe came on he really made a difference, he needs to start.

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Post by The Franchise Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:45 am

@shinigami99 wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:Wasnt sure where to put this, but this is my opinion of what I would do if I was in charge of Argentina.

Its the exact copy of Argentina in 86, I think it can work.

Below is Argentina 86'.

Larisano Special: Dear Mr.Batista/New Argie Coach... - Page 2 173321_Argentina


Below, my modern day re-interpretation.


Larisano Special: Dear Mr.Batista/New Argie Coach... - Page 2 173327_Argentina


The one and only question mark I have is Pastore. Its not his position or the fact he is a number 10. Burruchaga was a number 10 and sometimes a striker. Its Pastore's current ability and experience as a player. Burruchaga was 24 and had played nearly 200 games by the 86' WC. He was a excellent player in his own right and near his prime in all facets of the game. Pastore is only a month past his 22nd birthday and just about played 100.

That being said, he is as good an option as there is and its not like his naivety will give the team defensive problems, its what this solid base behind it is for.

Messi doing the Maradona type thing, given the freedom to go wherever he wants.

I went for Lopez simply because he is a legit number 9 and I believe that is what is needed.

Milito seems finished and we have to see what happens with Higuain.

Di Maria has shown the appetite needed to defend and obviously he has the attacking chops.

3 defenders gives the impression of solidarity no 2 Argentines have together and perhaps this can solve some of the woes back there.


Pretty Good lineup but LiLo is/would be old and I would rather Higuain/ Kun in the advanced attacking positions. Zanetti is pretty much done with the NT(not that he had a bad copa, it was not bad) so in that position I would probably put Lamela(he would be old enough by then) or ricky alvarez(depending on how he plays this season). Also, I would take out cambiasso and put in Banega( or even Gago) to make it more attacking.

If we use your formation, Here's how I would line up(2014)
------------------------------Romero(andrada)------------------
---Musacchio(Fazio)-----Otamendi(Munoz)-----Pareja(mediocre CB)---
---------------------------Mascherano(Cambiasso)
--Lamela(pillud)----Pastore(Alvarez)-----Banega(Gago)--------Di Maria(Perotti)
-----------------------------Messi(Iturbe)-------------------------
-----------------------------Higuain(Kun)---------------------------------

Li-Lo is 28..how is that old?

To be honest, I think having so many young players no older guys isnt a bonus. Some wise heads would serve Argentina very well.

Higuain has to recover from his injury problems and regain form aswell as a place for Madrid. I wouldnt want Kun playing, the player have to be a number 9 who can stay away from the ball and create space.

Most importantly, I think the wide players are not supposed to be wingers. They have a very balanced role, they have to have defensive ability. This formation, there will be times where counter attack with be the way to go and therefore the players have to be able to defend. So someone like Lamela, I would have to doubt.

I am not quick to rule out Zanetti for anything, he keeps on going. If he is still playing the way he is now, then I would go for him still.

I also wouldnt have the back 3 without a defence leader and I dont see one in the 3 guys you got there to be honest. I would still want Samuel if he is up for it physically. In this sweeper role, he surely would be, like Yepes is for Colombia.

Maybe its just be, but I dont see a reason the old guys need to be eliminated. Pre-maturely casting them off isnt wise imo. I felt Brazil looked like they went too far with a youth thing.

No chance I would go Gago over Cambiasso despite the last outbreak at the Copa, I seen enough of Gago now. If he gets pressed, its over for him. Banega I suppose could cut it, but a line up of him, Pastore and someone like Lamela wont work because this formation was in my mind a copy of 86's.

86' was all about 7 tough hardworking running and just 3 attack minded but very talented players. I think that is the kind of thing Argentina need because of their leaky defence plus they struggle trying to be the commanders of a game because they lack balance throughout the team with one area overloaded with talent and others under-strength.
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Post by messixaviesta Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:13 am

dani, interesting comments. We must keep in mind something though. While we recall the WC 1986 team fondly or shall we say one man's exploits make us recall that team fondly, the successor of it the WC 1990 team was the ugliest Argentina team in history. So while trying to aim towards WC 1986, we should be very careful we don't end up with WC 1990 instead. Other than that I agree with the others here that we cannot consider J.Zanetti any more. I mean he can now be part of it only if he can make it to WC 2014 which even by his standards is very unlikely. So if that is not going to happen we need to start preparing replacements now. Another point to keep in mind is that a coach who plays like this will be routinely skinned by the Argentina fans and media because this formation will force so many super talents to be on the bench and some to not even be in the squad.

Overall the Argentina puzzle is really something. To date I haven't seen a truly convincing formation and lineup for the present team. It's my belief that the only way to find it is through sufficient sensible experimentation.

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Post by messixaviesta Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:19 am

So you all would have heard that the latest news on this front is that Alejandro Sabella has been chosen the new coach. However due to some contract disputes with the job he was taking up, it will not be officially announced till that is sorted out.

Julio Grondona openly said that he won't be hiring Carlos Bianchi. No matter how much it disappoints those who admire him there is nothing we can do about it. The irony is that Bianchi openly declared his interest in the job.

Another interesting development is that Gerardo Martino has quit as coach of Paraguay. The minute I saw that news item I thought that he would be the next coach, perhaps unfortunately. However as of now Sabella is the one they have chosen which is probably at least a bit better. If something goes wrong with Sabella's appointment then Martino could be next in line.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:26 am

Dani what characteristics do you think Lisandro has that puts him above Higuain? It must be said that whenever LiLo was picked for the NT he never shined a quarter as bright as Higuain has so far.

Some questionmarks: Zanetti and Cambiasso will both probably be 'too old' by then, although Zanetti does indeed claim he wants to keep playing at Inter til he's 40 (and, well, if anyone can do it, it is him). Walter Samuel is will also be 36 by the WC.

Pastore's doubts could be fixed by Lamela's progress. Between one of the two I think one will emerge as being very good. Right now Lamela's chances are higher, I think.

Also, why take the 86 team as a reference point tactically? 3 defender lines are not too common nowadays and that's probably for good reason.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:28 am

JD, small point of interest, Martino quit after Sabella was already 'almost official'ly the NT's coach. At this stage, AFA's lawyers were already working with the Dubai club's to fix the transfer.
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Post by messixaviesta Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:54 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:JD, small point of interest, Martino quit after Sabella was already 'almost official'ly the NT's coach. At this stage, AFA's lawyers were already working with the Dubai club's to fix the transfer.

That's true alfred. It's just that I didn't know the news of Sabella's appointment at the time of Martino's resignation.

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Post by The Franchise Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:30 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:dani, interesting comments. We must keep in mind something though. While we recall the WC 1986 team fondly or shall we say one man's exploits make us recall that team fondly, the successor of it the WC 1990 team was the ugliest Argentina team in history. So while trying to aim towards WC 1986, we should be very careful we don't end up with WC 1990 instead. Other than that I agree with the others here that we cannot consider J.Zanetti any more. I mean he can now be part of it only if he can make it to WC 2014 which even by his standards is very unlikely. So if that is not going to happen we need to start preparing replacements now. Another point to keep in mind is that a coach who plays like this will be routinely skinned by the Argentina fans and media because this formation will force so many super talents to be on the bench and some to not even be in the squad.

Overall the Argentina puzzle is really something. To date I haven't seen a truly convincing formation and lineup for the present team. It's my belief that the only way to find it is through sufficient sensible experimentation.

But JD, the team of 90 wasnt the team of 86'. I understand what your saying, but lets face it, its not like anyone else has a perfect idea of how this Argentina team should play or line up. When its like that, maybe its best to go back to what has worked before. Of course that is only a wise option if the conditions are right for it, I believe they are.

As for the negative line up. Two things. Di Maria, Messi, Higuain and Pastore are all playing. That is one more 1/3 player then the team at the Copa at least on paper. Who is being left out which would cause such a stir? Tevez? His presence in the Copa team was a big factor in the Argentina playing bad in my opinion. Aguero would still be on the bench, like he was....I am struggling to think of who else you are talking about.

Secondly, winning shuts nearly everyone up, especially if you have not won in a very long time.
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Post by The Franchise Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:30 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Dani what characteristics do you think Lisandro has that puts him above Higuain? It must be said that whenever LiLo was picked for the NT he never shined a quarter as bright as Higuain has so far.

Some questionmarks: Zanetti and Cambiasso will both probably be 'too old' by then, although Zanetti does indeed claim he wants to keep playing at Inter til he's 40 (and, well, if anyone can do it, it is him). Walter Samuel is will also be 36 by the WC.

Pastore's doubts could be fixed by Lamela's progress. Between one of the two I think one will emerge as being very good. Right now Lamela's chances are higher, I think.

Also, why take the 86 team as a reference point tactically? 3 defender lines are not too common nowadays and that's probably for good reason.

Well for one, he is fit and playing consistently. Higuain isnt. Higuain also continously struggles in big games, Lopez doesnt.

As for Lopez's history, he has played 7 games (dont know how many he has started), its hardly a worthwhile sample size.


As for the two oldies, its my opinion they will not be too old. They have quality which defies age.

If Samuel is still around at 36, why cant he do what Yepes is doing now? In a 3 man defence where he sits deep, any lack of speed with be negated. Zanetti can play at 40 i believe and I see no reason why he would be considerably worse then he is now. I like old guys, they know how to play smartly and they are consistent.

Perhaps Lamela could play there instead of Pastore, depends on each players progress I suppose.

Why take the 86 team as a reference point? Why not is my answer. Bilardo was one of the best coaches tactically of all time, they was very successful and it has been said it was his tactics just as much as Maradona's greatness which had Argentina doing so well. At least one thing is obvious, he was a incredibly system driven coach and he knew what worked.

Everyone is afraid of 3 at the back, I dont know why. The point of this formation is you have basically 7 players who are defensive. People are afraid of getting hurt down flanks with a 3 man backline, but if you have a total of 7 defenders you cant have defensive worries.

Here is a question. Which teams play with wingers? If you struggle to answer, then I ask, whats the point of fullbacks then? I think you will struggle to name players who actually play down the flanks, therefore, why get stuck in the routine of playing 4 at the back? Especially when you dont have 2 decent centerbacks anyway.

But if a team with two wingers was the opponent, its not too difficult to change into a 4 man backline for that game. There is no crime in changing for the opponent if they better you.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:51 pm

Li Lo's only played 7 games? I was under the impression that it was a lot more. does that figure include friendlies?

Thanks for the reply, it all makes good sense. Especially the point about how 3 defender lines can be effective in today's football. It's also true that tactics seem to change a lot over the next years so perhaps 3 defender lines will make a comeback.

I'm very interested to see what Sabella comes up with. Maybe you should write to him with your ideas Very Happy
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Post by The Franchise Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:56 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Li Lo's only played 7 games? I was under the impression that it was a lot more. does that figure include friendlies?

Thanks for the reply, it all makes good sense. Especially the point about how 3 defender lines can be effective in today's football. It's also true that tactics seem to change a lot over the next years so perhaps 3 defender lines will make a comeback.

I'm very interested to see what Sabella comes up with. Maybe you should write to him with your ideas Very Happy

Well I cant find anything different...his last game apparently was 05....not exactly recently. He has been given the raw end of the deal (if the figures are correct) for sure.

And yeah, thanks for the opinion, very appreciated. Its just an opinion that dawned on me while doing some reading, so thought I would share.

I doubt it is something anyone is actually considering, or even anything like it, because its quite radical.
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Post by FennecFox7 Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:34 pm

Let's not forget higuain had one of those nasty back injuries, lets give him time then we can judge if lopez is a better true 9 then higgy lol
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:45 pm

The thing is I don't think the players right now have the tactical discipline to be able to keep up with this system for a full 90 minutes, during the friendlies last season I noticed that the team would start out playing really well and then they would just start to lose focus. That was probably Batista's fault for not instilling enough discipline, maybe Sabella can do it.

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Post by shinigami99 Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:52 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
@shinigami99 wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:Wasnt sure where to put this, but this is my opinion of what I would do if I was in charge of Argentina.

Its the exact copy of Argentina in 86, I think it can work.

Below is Argentina 86'.

Larisano Special: Dear Mr.Batista/New Argie Coach... - Page 2 173321_Argentina


Below, my modern day re-interpretation.


Larisano Special: Dear Mr.Batista/New Argie Coach... - Page 2 173327_Argentina


The one and only question mark I have is Pastore. Its not his position or the fact he is a number 10. Burruchaga was a number 10 and sometimes a striker. Its Pastore's current ability and experience as a player. Burruchaga was 24 and had played nearly 200 games by the 86' WC. He was a excellent player in his own right and near his prime in all facets of the game. Pastore is only a month past his 22nd birthday and just about played 100.

That being said, he is as good an option as there is and its not like his naivety will give the team defensive problems, its what this solid base behind it is for.

Messi doing the Maradona type thing, given the freedom to go wherever he wants.

I went for Lopez simply because he is a legit number 9 and I believe that is what is needed.

Milito seems finished and we have to see what happens with Higuain.

Di Maria has shown the appetite needed to defend and obviously he has the attacking chops.

3 defenders gives the impression of solidarity no 2 Argentines have together and perhaps this can solve some of the woes back there.


Pretty Good lineup but LiLo is/would be old and I would rather Higuain/ Kun in the advanced attacking positions. Zanetti is pretty much done with the NT(not that he had a bad copa, it was not bad) so in that position I would probably put Lamela(he would be old enough by then) or ricky alvarez(depending on how he plays this season). Also, I would take out cambiasso and put in Banega( or even Gago) to make it more attacking.

If we use your formation, Here's how I would line up(2014)
------------------------------Romero(andrada)------------------
---Musacchio(Fazio)-----Otamendi(Munoz)-----Pareja(mediocre CB)---
---------------------------Mascherano(Cambiasso)
--Lamela(pillud)----Pastore(Alvarez)-----Banega(Gago)--------Di Maria(Perotti)
-----------------------------Messi(Iturbe)-------------------------
-----------------------------Higuain(Kun)---------------------------------

Li-Lo is 28..how is that old?

To be honest, I think having so many young players no older guys isnt a bonus. Some wise heads would serve Argentina very well.

Higuain has to recover from his injury problems and regain form aswell as a place for Madrid. I wouldnt want Kun playing, the player have to be a number 9 who can stay away from the ball and create space.

Most importantly, I think the wide players are not supposed to be wingers. They have a very balanced role, they have to have defensive ability. This formation, there will be times where counter attack with be the way to go and therefore the players have to be able to defend. So someone like Lamela, I would have to doubt.

I am not quick to rule out Zanetti for anything, he keeps on going. If he is still playing the way he is now, then I would go for him still.

I also wouldnt have the back 3 without a defence leader and I dont see one in the 3 guys you got there to be honest. I would still want Samuel if he is up for it physically. In this sweeper role, he surely would be, like Yepes is for Colombia.

Maybe its just be, but I dont see a reason the old guys need to be eliminated. Pre-maturely casting them off isnt wise imo. I felt Brazil looked like they went too far with a youth thing.

No chance I would go Gago over Cambiasso despite the last outbreak at the Copa, I seen enough of Gago now. If he gets pressed, its over for him. Banega I suppose could cut it, but a line up of him, Pastore and someone like Lamela wont work because this formation was in my mind a copy of 86's.

86' was all about 7 tough hardworking running and just 3 attack minded but very talented players. I think that is the kind of thing Argentina need because of their leaky defence plus they struggle trying to be the commanders of a game because they lack balance throughout the team with one area overloaded with talent and others under-strength.

That Lineup I gave was for 2014.....not RIGHT now...Samuel would be too old imo(not sure if he would still be playing) and he would have to be in REALLY good form if he was still playing.

Also in my ideal formation, I would rather not use the '86 lineup because fullbacks are an important part of the modern game and add alot both offensively and defensively. We just need to find the correct full backs.
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:53 pm

Garay Otamendi and probably Munoz are probably going to be our CBs for the 2014 WC unless some youngsters make a breakthrough or something

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Post by The Franchise Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:45 pm

Giggity5313 wrote:Let's not forget higuain had one of those nasty back injuries, lets give him time then we can judge if lopez is a better true 9 then higgy lol

Did you read what I wrote?

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Post by The Franchise Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:46 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:The thing is I don't think the players right now have the tactical discipline to be able to keep up with this system for a full 90 minutes, during the friendlies last season I noticed that the team would start out playing really well and then they would just start to lose focus. That was probably Batista's fault for not instilling enough discipline, maybe Sabella can do it.

Well asking them to play like Barca and defend with 7 players is completely different.


It didnt surprise me they didnt have the focus to play the patient game Barca play, however, being defensive and working hard isnt something that you should lose with focus. Its not really a complicated system to work out.

The players I picked have all shown the ability to do the roles I gave them I think.
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Post by The Franchise Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:49 pm

@shinigami99 wrote:
That Lineup I gave was for 2014.....not RIGHT now...Samuel would be too old imo(not sure if he would still be playing) and he would have to be in REALLY good form if he was still playing.

Also in my ideal formation, I would rather not use the '86 lineup because fullbacks are an important part of the modern game and add alot both offensively and defensively. We just need to find the correct full backs.

Yeah, but guessing a line up and then picking it now, for 3 years time isnt possible.

I already said I disagree about Samuel, so lets leave that there.

I have also discussed fullback, maybe you can go back and find it and answer the questions I posed?

As for the "correct fullbacks" would you like to name them? Because from what I see, you dont have them.
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