Juventus 2017/2018 Serie A and Coppa Italia thread

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Post by Warrior Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:00 pm

@Kaladin wrote:If Allegri makes 4th and reaches CL QFs, would you keep him?


No
CL QFs mean jack shit, it's not sufficient. 4th in the league would be a disaster.

But i don't expect this to happen because this team is scudetto material so silver medal is the very least acceptable result. The scenario you propose would be 100% Allegri's fault.

@rincon wrote:Something that can affect Max's future imo is his handling of the young players that Marotta (and Allegri) have decided to build the new Juve around. Like if none of Bernardeschi, Pjaca and Costa make it for example. Same for Rugani and De Sciglio. If he falls back too much on his "guarantees" (Khedira, Mandzukic, Cuadrado) then I imagine that on the event of low season finish, he would be out.



That's exactly what i mean when i say "dogmatism". I also add the double pivot that suits none of our current midfielders, yet that's another debate we've had many times. To me 4-2-3-1 is a "dogma" because Allegri elaborate this strategy a year ago, and while it doesn't fit our squad anymore (and competitors did ajustments), Allegri still always come back to it. As if Wingdzukic 4-2-3-1 was a pillar of positiveness in his mind hmm

Don't get me wrong, i rate Max as a top tactical manager but it seems 4-2-3-1 deludes him a bit. Wtf

But i realized dogmatic ain't the word i've been looking for, STUBBORN is more appropriate. I am fan of every player getting some play time to prove themselves, and i am also a fan of seeing the most talented being starters.

The defeat vs Samp, i think Allegri took it personal, changes will start to happen now.

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Post by rincon Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:17 pm

Last season the 4231 didn't fit our squad so we had no subs. This season they literally went and made the squad ideal for the 4231.

We have 7 forwards and only 5 proper midfielders. They very clearly built a squad for the 4231.

If it's a good or bad choice against our rivals is another matter, but it for sure fits the squad as they built it for it.
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Post by Luca Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:22 pm

Yep, just like the 3-5-2 was the ideal formation for us a couple years ago. You play through your strengths and right now its the attackers we have.

The 3 man midfield in certain situations may be something Allegri explores, its already something he's done this season but or else we live and die through the 4-2-3-1 and I'm not even mad

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Post by Warrior Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:25 pm

We have the ideal attack for 4-2-3-1 (implying Bernardeschi or Costa instead of Mandzukic).

But our midfield gets eaten alive because our troops in the midfield are not ideal for a double pivot. Pjanic still looks good because he is excellent player, but defensively he is quite poor.
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Post by Luca Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:36 pm

I know I'm more of a 3 man midfield guy and I like the option for certain matches but we can't really blame Pjanic for the defenders not doing their job behind him

Also, the games that we lost were against Lazio and Barcelona and we played a midfield 3 in both of those matches

Yesterday, we can hardly fault our formation but we can definitely discuss some of the players on the field and not to scapegoat anyone but how poor was Lichsteiner, Asamoah, Wingdzukic, Khedira and even Pjanic?

Allegri even called out Khedira after the match, if he's glued to the bench for a couple matches that would be cool.

The problem is with a 3 man midfield, it's going to be an attacking trio of Mandzukic, Higuain and Dybala, we can try to deny it but we know this is the case. This is going further from where we want to be. If we have an edge on the wings, at the expense of the middle, then we have to play through it

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Post by Warrior Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:40 pm

I agree this squad was built for 4-2-3-1, i give you guys that. Built for =/= best option

Simply can't see it as our path to success, for the reasons i've said many times. Against top opponents we need 4-3-3 or 4-3-2-1.

Allegri has to change something, the starters or the strategy. I know you will disagree but i'll appreciate to change both.
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Post by Luca Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:43 pm

Definitely agree that we are a more explosive team with players like Bernardeschi or Douglas Costa, or both, in the starting 11

Of course there is room of improvement and we all know the problem areas, the fullback and the midfield

Right now, we just need our players to play better. It doesn't really matter who hits the field anymore, everyone is culpable

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Post by Warrior Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:44 pm

@Luca wrote:
Yesterday, we can hardly fault our formation but we can definitely discuss some of the players on the field and not to scapegoat anyone but how poor was Lichsteiner, Asamoah, Wingdzukic, Khedira and even Pjanic?

Allegri even called out Khedira after the match, if he's glued to the bench for a couple matches that would be cool.


I'd like our midfield to be a defense before the defense. Currently we certainly don't have that.

Missed the match yet i agree with you about all those players, because it's a well known pattern now. Khedira is disappointing, i see Bentancur as better than him. And i don't even rate Bentancur that much, after some thoughts...
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Post by Luca Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:56 pm

I really like Bentancur, it's just difficult to see him get minutes over the players in front of him if everyone is fit. It was nice to see him get a few games early so we can see what we have. For me, he almost always does the right thing with the ball- reminds me of Pirlo in that sense, that and his composure. I think he's the real deal but right now, when you need results, its only natural to fall back to what you know works and its not always fair to baptize by fire.

We have Crotone next week, hopefully we see 90 minutes from a few of these "fringe" players, not that it will be indicative of much, but lets see them play.

Khedira is a very intelligent player. I think he understands the game really well, and his positioning demonstrates that. He's solid albeit not incredible. He definitely had one of his poorer games with Juve on the weekend.

I'm really tired of seeing Lichtsteiner though, he's finished. We talk poorly about Asamoah from time to time but Lichtsteiner is even worse

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Post by rincon Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:03 pm

I love Licht and he is a legend for me but it's time. He has been worse than Asamoah this season. At least Asamoah when is average doesn't cost us goals. Licht keeps losing it in defense.
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Post by Warrior Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:04 pm

Khedira has very high football IQ, stamina is his problem. Sometimes he's also a lazy slob on the field.
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Post by Andrew Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:31 pm

Higuain
Costa - Dybala - Bernardeschi
Pjanic - Marchisio
Alex Sandro - Chiellini - Rugani - Cuadrado
Buffon

GG.

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Post by DeviAngel Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:31 am

Mandzukic and Cuadrado are playing because of the defensive stability in the team, Sandro and Licht are shit so they are the only players who track back and do great. DMdzukic is more of a third DM. Cuadrado is playing because of Licht and MDS (not enough games) because they suck at RB.

3 man midfield is a must, that extra midfielder will add to the defensive stability and that midfielder must be Marchisio.
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Post by Warrior Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:36 am

@DeviAngel wrote:
3 man midfield is a must, that extra midfielder will add to the defensive stability and that midfielder must be Marchisio.

Exactly what i think about the midfield. I'd sacrifice an attacker for it, even if we have 7.

As alternative, Pjanic-Matuidi-Khedira/Bentancur would be worth a try.
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Post by rincon Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:28 am

Matuidi-Marchisio-Pjanic is the only mid 3 I'd endorse over a 4-2-3-1/3-4-3 in a serious game

Marchisio is our only regista and him + Pjanic would be a must to feed Higuain-Mandzu-Dybala.

Won't be surprised if for the Barca we see the same team as usual, then after that I expect more experimenting.
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Post by juvealbanian Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:50 pm

The team is built for a 4231 for sure and any other formation will require lots of investment on new players.

What I wanna see is Costa,Berna,Dybala and Cuadrado play all.
I feel we are wasting Dybala as a trequartista.He is another player when he plays a bit more forward and doesn't have to defend much.
He should play as a RWF.Period. And behind him as a RB we should put Cuadrado who's the only one who can run that wing with his pace and stamina.Lichtsteiner is finished.

....................Higuain (CF)
..........................................Dybala (RWF)
D.Costa (LMF) - Berna (AMF)
...........Pjanic(CM) - Marchiso/Matuidi
Sandro - Chiellini - Rugani - Cuadrado (WB)
........................Buffon

Berna has played and is pretty good at AMF imo. Plus having all the players I mentioned above in the offensive phase will make it easier for everyone.
Maybe Dybala and Berna can switch positions depending on situations with Berna able to play like a proper winger while Dybala should stay closer to the goal almost like a SS to Higuain.
I'm pretty sure this can work. Bernardeschi runs more than Dybala and with Matuidi or Marchisio there instead of Khedira we can let Pjanic work his magic more often. We are going through a transition from 352 ultra defensive to a more balanced 4231 but imo we shouldn't fear having a more offensive approach to games.We got the firepower and we must fully use it.

If this wont work then we might need a top CDM or even a AMF in case Bernardeschi doesn't deliver.
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Post by rincon Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:35 am

Chiellini, Bernardeschi and Cuadrado will miss this game.

Higuain, Pjanic, Rugani and Khedira set to be rested.

Expected 11 vs Crotone

Higuain
Costa - Dybala
Matuidi - Marchisio - Bentancur
Sandro - Benatia - Barzagli - De Sciglio
Buffon
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Post by Warrior Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:10 pm

As a consequence of losing 2-3 vs Sampdoria, we need at least 4 points in the games vs Napoli/Inter. This must be the absolute priority.

Our CL fate is still under our control, and i can't see Sporting beat Barca in Camp Nou.
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Post by rincon Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:26 pm

Maybe Sporting does beat Barca (doubt it) but it shouldn't matter. We have to win in Athens and that's that. The team got this.

If everyone returns to fitness, I'd like to see this at the San Paolo

Higuain
Costa - Dybala
Sandro - Marchisio - Pjanic - Cuadrado
Chiellini - Benatia - Rugani
Buffon

Marchisio was immense against Crotone and Barca, need him there. I'll be disappointed if he doesn't start. Cuadrado or De Sciglio is fine, just no Litch.
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Post by Luca Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:18 pm

http://gianlucadimarzio.com/it/juventus-operazione-necessaria-per-higuain-salta-la-sfida-col-napoli

No Higuain, he's having hand surgery

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Post by Tomwin Lannister Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:58 pm

Good tbh we can abuse crossing again Laughing
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Post by rincon Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:04 pm

Albiol is 1.90 and Koulibaly is 1.95. Mandzukic will have his hands full.

We'll win this I think. At least draw, I don't see us losing. If we play well defensively as the last 2 games then I think we got this.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:05 pm

Yeah they're big but Mandzu in the box has their number if the deliveries are good imo.
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Post by Luca Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:14 pm

Mandzukic is more than capable. If we lose, it won't be his fault

The Napoli match will be the most difficult of our next three, incredibly tough match and in Napoli its never easy

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Post by juvealbanian Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:08 pm

Watch us start Khedira and our midfield get raped vs Napoli
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Post by Warrior Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:01 pm

We ABSOLUTELY need a midfield 3 as a "defense before the defense". It is imperative.

Napoli is a team that make their opponents commit positioning mistakes, we must avoid that at all costs.

It's probably our most important match of the season, the way out of it is to have possession, be agressive in tackles and be deadly on counter attacks. With this mentality we'll see what this team is truly made of.

A negative/cautious approach is the insurance for a very very long evening at San Paolo, but i don't expect it. Allegri is back to his usual self since the Sampdoria defeat.

I'd go for

Mandz
Douglas-Dybala
Pjanic-Marchisio-Khedira
Sandro-Chiellini-Rugani-Cuadrado
Buffon

or

Mandz-Dybala
Sandro-Pjanic-Marchisio-Khedira-Cuadrado
Chiellini-Rugani-Barzagli
Buffon
(i don't love 3-5-2 but for this match it's appropriate)
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