Cristiano Ronaldo is the GREATEST OF ALL TIME. Now Sit down and STFU

neuro11 wrote:Ronaldo fume at coach Santos as Portugal misses out on automatic qualification. Such a pussy this guy is. Would be fun to see him getting kicked out in the playoffs.

https://www.goal.com/en/news/watch-ronaldo-fume-coach-santos-portugal-qualification-2022/blt6d3d0d3ff699c90b

Ronaldo did not lash out at Santos, he complained to him about the disallowed goal against Serbia in a previous match. Santos said this himself. Messi fanboys really are hilarious digging up every little thing to shit on Ronaldo/Lewandowski/Neymar/Mbappe, false or otherwise.

Yet to see a properly objective response to Farfarce BTFOing this thread with his solid posts outside of haterz and ad hominem etc.

Messi fans need to cope with the fact that Ronaldo's latter stages of his career have far outshone Messi and he is essentially 3 years older than the dwarf who really has no excuse to be performing as meh as he is for PSG and with the team he has at his disposal.

And calling me a CR fanboy is just silly given he is a United player, former Juve player and Real Madrid. ALL teams I dislike.

really? that bullshit farfan spouted? yea no there is not an ounce of objectivity in y'all CR7 fanboy posts either, if we are gunna resort to that tactic. And you are one clearly with that sort of reasoning, don't excuse yourself from the clan

such a stupid, forced conversation/argument to me, i'll never get it

El Gunner wrote:@farfan so pls tell me who clearly performed better than Messi in the 2014 WC?

@FFox Mamad is only using @farfan's stupid logic against him. Sure, Messi isn't perfect. He won't own every stat in the world. But bringing up those stats makes it feel like you want him to be perfect - you expect perfection from him. Being the GOAT doesn't mean perfection, artists aren't perfect - they dazzle and amaze with what they have to offer, they show you stuff that you have never seen before. Ali never went undefeated. Michael Jordan needed Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson etc etc etc.

Neither of you is using any logic and both of you have failed to grasp the basic point of my initial post: Messi isn't bad with Argentina, he's just underachieving relative to his GOAT status and club performances. If you can't see the disparity between topping every statistical category at club level and trailing behind a slew of average players at international level in those same categories, I don't know what to say to you.

And no, expecting La Liga's all-time top scorer, the CL's 2nd all-time top scorer, and the third top scorer in football HISTORY to be somewhere in the top 30 of world cup goalscorers or to have decided a KO game by now isn't asking for perfection, it's the bare minimum. I actually don't think I could've set the bar any lower.

Mamad's comparisons are at odds with what I said. I put an emphasis on the number of goals scored in tournaments and knockout stages, Ronaldo trounces Lukaku in both. And what is comparing Maradona to Klose supposed to prove? one is a poacher who had a longer career and the other was a classic 10 who never scored more than 16 goals/season in European football. When was Diego ever touted as a great goalscorer?

Messi fans have this weird bipolar relationship with stats. Every season they bombard us with graphs showing how he's the leader in both assists and goals. Even in this thread, Mamad has no qualms about highlighting Messi's total goal tally with Argentina as a tremendous achievement. But the moment you want to take a closer look at his stats in tournaments, goals and assists have to be tossed aside and some bigger picture has to be considered.

Okay, I always knew farfan was ruthless, but this is just a stone-cold, brutal annihilation of epic proportions, down to the very last atom of every living being in sight. Nuked them all back to the stone age while smiling.

I mean, sweet jesus man, have some mercy on their poor souls.

Yeah, I'm not a big fanatic of neither Messi, nor C. Ronaldo, but Farfan has been consistently rational with his arguments in this thread, as far as I can tell.

pathetic Messi isnt in the top 30 goalscorers in the world cup history so he can't be the GOAT anymore, superb GL knowledge, thanks for schooling me

meanwhile...

Kebab wrote:Most goals+assists in World Cups

Triggered much?   And yes Arg, you're the biggest Cronaldo fanboy here.

El Gunner wrote:pathetic Messi isnt in the top 30 goalscorers in the world cup history so he can't be the GOAT anymore, superb GL knowledge, thanks for schooling me

meanwhile...

Kebab wrote:Most goals+assists in World Cups

That's not the argument..but whatever stop getting so defensive and emotional, this isn't about Ronaldo at all.

Your list is using some random cutoff date just so that Messi can be shoehorned into the top 5 Maradona, Pelé, Fontaine, and a handful of other players from the 70s and 80s are all ahead of Messi in this particular stat. Also, notice how even among these modern players, Messi has the lowest ratio of all and has played the most games after Klose. Another indicator that his greatest individual achievement is longevity.

Farfarce has quite literally cleaned up house here its actually embarrassing by now.

I dont know why any Messi/CR debater here can be called that without being named a fanboy as my opinion on this simply has changed in the last 3 years where Messi has had a clear decline whereas CR isnt really particularly slowing down.

My posts back from GL during the Barça Real rivalry of Pep and Mou indicate how much I saw Messi far ahead of CR by now its just undeniable as CR has created greatness in 3 different clubs, countries let alone for country whereas Messi has been meh for Argentina.

CR adds close to nothing in the game bar goals yes but clutch he is and is the most prolific player of all time. Messi can barely cut it past Monsieur Rousseau in Ligue 1 nowadays.

Debater...

The Jorginho prop finally makes sense now ffs

farfan wrote:

El Gunner wrote:@farfan so pls tell me who clearly performed better than Messi in the 2014 WC?

@FFox Mamad is only using @farfan's stupid logic against him. Sure, Messi isn't perfect. He won't own every stat in the world. But bringing up those stats makes it feel like you want him to be perfect - you expect perfection from him. Being the GOAT doesn't mean perfection, artists aren't perfect - they dazzle and amaze with what they have to offer, they show you stuff that you have never seen before. Ali never went undefeated. Michael Jordan needed Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson etc etc etc.

Neither of you is using any logic and both of you have failed to grasp the basic point of my initial post: Messi isn't bad with Argentina, he's just underachieving relative to his GOAT status and club performances. If you can't see the disparity between topping every statistical category at club level and trailing behind a slew of average players at international level in those same categories, I don't know what to say to you.

And no, expecting La Liga's all-time top scorer, the CL's 2nd all-time top scorer, and the third top scorer in football HISTORY to be somewhere in the top 30 of world cup goalscorers or to have decided a KO game by now isn't asking for perfection, it's the bare minimum. I actually don't think I could've set the bar any lower.

Mamad's comparisons are at odds with what I said. I put an emphasis on the number of goals scored in tournaments and knockout stages, Ronaldo trounces Lukaku in both. And what is comparing Maradona to Klose supposed to prove? one is a poacher who had a longer career and the other was a classic 10 who never scored more than 16 goals/season in European football. When was Diego ever touted as a great goalscorer?

Messi fans have this weird bipolar relationship with stats. Every season they bombard us with graphs showing how he's the leader in both assists and goals. Even in this thread, Mamad has no qualms about highlighting Messi's total goal tally with Argentina as a tremendous achievement. But the moment you want to take a closer look at his stats in tournaments, goals and assists have to be tossed aside and some bigger picture has to be considered.

Still the same nonsense. do i need to teach you how football works?

you expect Messi to have similar stats and performances with his NT compared to Barcelona? one had Perez Biglia Lavezzi and Higuain another had Iniesta Xavi Busquets and suarez. more so the same for all this years. so how is that logical or possible for Messi to have the same stats or performances when he played in a 10 times weaker team?

Messi for Barca played a different role. how is playing a false 9 similar to playing behind Higuain or another striker? a player can play different roles for his club and NT you know that right? Messi was a 10 and an 8 at the same time he was trying to create more than scoring because that was what Argentina needed. go watch the actual games then come and talk to me.

when it comes to performing in the biggest stages at international football i will present you a strong case that Messi has outperformed Ronaldo. one playing CF and one playing a 10. actually Ronaldo was not even his teams top 3 player when they won euro's he wasn't even in the final whilst Messi has always been Argentina's best player in big games. win or lose.

I talk stats ONLY because you always go that way. because Ronaldo can't clean Messi's boots on actual performances. it's only on the number of goals he can compete.

trust me I'm not a Messi fanboy. I've been a Madrid fan for 30 years. and i hate comparing players with stats. but trying to undermine Messi's greatness by some nitpicked stats is laughable. you say he has not been good in International level because of stats. i say he has been great because of actual performances.

I've always said the best player is the one who makes others around him better. Ronaldo actually kill's others. everywhere he goes other strikers and attacking players suffer greatly. look at Rooney, Benzema, Dybala, etc.... even now at Manchester everyone's goalscoring stats will get worse compared to before just wait and see. he thrives on others hard work. great striker no doubt but comparing him to Messi? lmao.

Let's say Argentina plays against Germany at WC 2022 in quarter finals. Germany wins 1-0. Messi is the best player at the pitch creating chances and taking on defenders etc....

some people after the game: oh look Messi again failed for his NT he sucks at NT.
Me: he actually was the motm.
them: he didn't score though so nah he sucked.
Me:

Mamad with the killer closing argument

Does it really matter what Cyborgdo does at Juve and Man Utd ? Serious question
We already know he is a great champion, one of the best goal scorers of all time, his longevity is admirable etc... what you cannot quantify is how much Messi was intrinsically better than him for the crux of their respective careers which was the Barca-Real rivalry... and it's not like Messi is far behind him in terms of individual achievements (might even be ahead for all i know/care)

For me the debate about who is the best of this era is over since many years

Messi's shortcomings with Argentina are arguments against him in the GOAT debate vs Pelé and Maradona meanwhile Ronaldo does not even belong in this discussion. His case relies too much on hard work at the gym and stat padding. And his Portugal career it was as disappointing as Messi's with Argentina, only relevant achievement is fraudulent trophy in Euro 2016 saved by the bs 3rd team rule below Hungary and Iceland.

Mamad makes a great point as to why Messi's Argentina stats aren't similar to his Barca ones. Those are all valid reasons and I was going to write up something similar, but he saved me the time.

So really it's no surprise his statistical achievements aren't the same between the two since he performs under totally different contexts. That being said if you want to make the argument "he hasn't scored a KO goal" well sure, but it's not like Argentina have been this dominant team who scored in every knockout round

In 2010 they scored 1 knockout goal, 2014 they scored two, and 2018 they scored three. Messi assisted 3/6 of those goals. Argentina was knocked out by Germany twice and France once. Both the eventual winners. Maradona and Sampaoli were both shitshows. Sabella was fine, but he decided to switch to a defensive 4-4-1-1 in the knockout rounds which hurt Messi's game, but made Argentina a better balanced unit.

I guess that's what makes international football interesting. It takes players out of their comfort zones. So a Messi out of his comfort zone won the WC golden ball, Copa America golden ball, Copa America golden boot, Copa America trophy, Olympics, WC finalist and 4 time Copa America finalist. He's Argentina's all time leading scorer and he's going to finish as the all time leading South American goalscorer.

Maybe another player would be considered the best international player ever if they had that CV. Oddly though with Messi some people consider it underwhelming. He's a victim of his own standards. Rightly or wrongly unless he scores a wonder goal in the WC knockout rounds and wins it single handedly people are always going to be under the impression he underperformed for Argentina relative to his legacy in the game.

Using the hater logic, you'd think Ronaldo himself would be the same but he doesn't get that treatment. Getting knocked out in the WC group stage against USA? Who cares. Getting knocked out against Uruguay in the R16? Who cares. Portugal isn't the best team but you'd think Mr Inevitable himself would have shown up then. When you think about it his most memorable moment in international football is acting like a coach for the cameras during the Euro finals. Let's not even get into how Juve signed him to win the CL only to lose against small teams 3 years in a row. Yet somehow he's outperformed the midget in the last few years.

Truth be told if we really think about it Im struggling to remember when Ronaldo has ACTUALLY come in clutch for Portugal. No, Messi's international career is nothing to write home about but a huge portion of Ronaldo's absurd record for Portugal comes from hat tricks v Burkina Faso etc and I dont particularly remember him blowing out the big teams hence why Mancini's fear of Portugal and CR in the WC play-offs is a bit misplaced.

Honestly neither of them have that iconic big international game in the knockout rounds. A game where they have the weaker team and they took the game by the scruff of its neck.

They always bow out to the better team the first chance they get.

Ronaldo can be compared to Messi only by goal stats, other than that he is nothing compared to messi. Even at goals stats he is loosing

Messi's all time goal ratio 0.80
Ronaldo's all time goal ratio 0.73

In Champions League
Messi's ratio 0.83
CR's ratio 0.77

Watch this and tell me how can that stat padder be better than Messi on a football pitch?

This your Balloon Door winner?

Mamad wrote:

farfan wrote:

El Gunner wrote:@farfan so pls tell me who clearly performed better than Messi in the 2014 WC?

@FFox Mamad is only using @farfan's stupid logic against him. Sure, Messi isn't perfect. He won't own every stat in the world. But bringing up those stats makes it feel like you want him to be perfect - you expect perfection from him. Being the GOAT doesn't mean perfection, artists aren't perfect - they dazzle and amaze with what they have to offer, they show you stuff that you have never seen before. Ali never went undefeated. Michael Jordan needed Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson etc etc etc.

Neither of you is using any logic and both of you have failed to grasp the basic point of my initial post: Messi isn't bad with Argentina, he's just underachieving relative to his GOAT status and club performances. If you can't see the disparity between topping every statistical category at club level and trailing behind a slew of average players at international level in those same categories, I don't know what to say to you.

And no, expecting La Liga's all-time top scorer, the CL's 2nd all-time top scorer, and the third top scorer in football HISTORY to be somewhere in the top 30 of world cup goalscorers or to have decided a KO game by now isn't asking for perfection, it's the bare minimum. I actually don't think I could've set the bar any lower.

Mamad's comparisons are at odds with what I said. I put an emphasis on the number of goals scored in tournaments and knockout stages, Ronaldo trounces Lukaku in both. And what is comparing Maradona to Klose supposed to prove? one is a poacher who had a longer career and the other was a classic 10 who never scored more than 16 goals/season in European football. When was Diego ever touted as a great goalscorer?

Messi fans have this weird bipolar relationship with stats. Every season they bombard us with graphs showing how he's the leader in both assists and goals. Even in this thread, Mamad has no qualms about highlighting Messi's total goal tally with Argentina as a tremendous achievement. But the moment you want to take a closer look at his stats in tournaments, goals and assists have to be tossed aside and some bigger picture has to be considered.

Still the same nonsense. do i need to teach you how football works?

you expect Messi to have similar stats and performances with his NT compared to Barcelona? one had Perez Biglia Lavezzi and Higuain another had Iniesta Xavi Busquets and suarez. more so the same for all this years. so how is that logical or possible for Messi to have the same stats or performances when he played in a 10 times weaker team?

Messi for Barca played a different role. how is playing a false 9 similar to playing behind Higuain or another striker? a player can play different roles for his club and NT you know that right? Messi was a 10 and an 8 at the same time he was trying to create more than scoring because that was what Argentina needed. go watch the actual games then come and talk to me.

when it comes to performing in the biggest stages at international football i will present you a strong case that Messi has outperformed Ronaldo. one playing CF and one playing a 10. actually Ronaldo was not even his teams top 3 player when they won euro's he wasn't even in the final whilst Messi has always been Argentina's best player in big games. win or lose.

I talk stats ONLY because you always go that way. because Ronaldo can't clean Messi's boots on actual performances. it's only on the number of goals he can compete.

trust me I'm not a Messi fanboy. I've been a Madrid fan for 30 years. and i hate comparing players with stats. but trying to undermine Messi's greatness by some nitpicked stats is laughable. you say he has not been good in International level because of stats. i say he has been great because of actual performances.

I've always said the best player is the one who makes others around him better. Ronaldo actually kill's others. everywhere he goes other strikers and attacking players suffer greatly. look at Rooney, Benzema, Dybala, etc.... even now at Manchester everyone's goalscoring stats will get worse compared to before just wait and see. he thrives on others hard work. great striker no doubt but comparing him to Messi? lmao.

You've been mischaracterizing and oversimplifying my arguments since the start of this discussion. I didn't just look at the total numbers of goals to rate a particular player's contribution, I clearly gave more weight to decisive and impactful goals (KO stages and finals) than consistent scoring over several tournaments. It's why Gerd Muller is ahead of Klose and Platini is ahead of Ronaldo when it comes to the Euros. The thing with Messi is that he's lacking in both...

. And again, I'm not expecting him to replicate his CL or La Liga form at international level, I'm expecting him to have BETTER stats than what he currently has. I still haven't heard a single logical argument as to why my expectations are too high or unreasonable. I'm also not entertaining the "midfielder" argument either. His heatmap with Barça has been drifting to central /right midfield throughout his recent years yet he still managed to maintain a high scoring output. He also has no trouble finding the back of the net in friendlies and qualifiers, it's in tournaments where his struggles are apparent.

Since you keep bringing up Ronaldo I feel like I need to put this to bed.  What I'm saying about Messi largely applies to Ronaldo as well. Both are elite players who stuck around long enough to become all-time top scorers for their countries. However, neither player has had a dominant tournament on an individual basis, neither player has managed to decide a KO stage game against a good opponent, and neither player has impressive stats when it mattered most. I have both Ronaldo and Messi in the same tier when it comes to NT football, a tier that is several notches below where the likes of Brazilian Ronaldo, Zidane, Maradona, Platini, Pelé, etc.. are

Why is pointing out that a player is underachieving with the NT such a sore point for some of you? I can rate Messi as the GOAT and still feel underwhelmed by his international career, the two things aren't mutually exclusive since NT football is only one aspect of the game. We get accused of nitpicking Messi's NT performances to undermine him, but it's his fans who are constantly going over his performances with a fine-tooth comb to discern some sort of greatness. No goals? no assists? 0 defensive contribution?  Lowest kilometers ran per game? No problem! here is a stat sheet of hockey assists and successful dribbles...

Funny how we never had to do this with Someone like Zidane. The player you saw at club level is who you saw with the national team. We never had to blame useless stiffs like Dugarry and Guivarc'h for "letting him down", he usually found a way to get it done himself. The same goes for most of the greats I mentioned earlier.

Mamad wrote:Let's say Argentina plays against Germany at WC 2022 in quarter finals. Germany wins 1-0. Messi is the best player at the pitch creating chances and taking on defenders etc....

some people after the game: oh look Messi again failed for his NT he sucks at NT.
Me: he actually was the motm.
them: he didn't score though so nah he sucked.
Me:

But this make-believe scenario only exists in your imagination. this is in line with the myth that Messi fans continue to cling to; the notion of a lone wolf being let down by the mediocrity around him.

In reality, Messi tends to drown just as deep as most of his teammates ( if not deeper) when the going gets tough. In the most crucial and difficult games of his Argentina career (Semifinal vs the Netherlands and Final vs Germany), he not only was not the MOTM, but he was also thoroughly outperformed by several of his teammates. This includes Biglia in the Netherlands game btw   Unless of course you want to use Whoscored successful dribbles stats, in that case, Messi is never not the MOTM.

Kebab wrote:Watch this and tell me how can that stat padder be better than Messi on a football pitch?

The year is 3073
Earth is largely uninhabitable, only a few tribes of people as we know them are still alive, even the aliens have abandoned this forsaken land.
Of the animals left that haven't gone extinct, all of them have mutated and are toxic to the touch.
Cardi B album "Gangsta Bitch Music, Vol. 2" is playing in the distance after it had been preserved in a time capsule 100 years heretofore by an unknown traveler.
Messi vs ronaldo debate is very much alive and divisive among the people as well as the alien population.