Things Liverpool need to do

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Post by Hapless_Hans Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:49 pm

Watching the atrocious performance in the league cup semi at Southampton, I'm reminded of earlier instances of similarly atrocious performances that occur periodically between the great games Liverpool have.

I think there are some constants in those games which Liverpool need to address if they want to get anywhere.

1. Sell Lucas ASAP. The guy is a poor player and under Klopp serves as the equivalent to Tymoshtshuk for us under van Gaal - he's brought on, either in later phases of a game, in rotational games, or defensive minded formations, with the intent and in order to provide 'stability' but actually effectively serves to destabilize everything with his lethargic, slow ass and technically poor play.
I would be interested in seeing a goal difference stat of minutes Liverpool played WITH and WITHOUT Lucas this season. I'd bet the difference is staggering. He's a huge liability and has been all season.

2. Same goes for Sturridge, the difference here is that Sturridge is not a poor player, on the contrary he's surely one of the most accomplished and lethal finisher around.
But apparently him and Klopp just don't work together. Not sure why, I'd put it down to both mentality differences and to a certain absolute positional and tactical obliviousness Sturridge tends to display.
I don't think I ever see him sprinting. He just strolls all around the pitch, coming back to the middle line with no reason.
But I don't even know whether it's accurate to pin it on Sturridge. Bottom line however is it's not working when he's starting. Not at all. No pressing, no creativity, no fluidity.
Sturridge's presence apparently is pure Kryptonite to Klopp's way of playing

Sell him while he's still worth a lot. Sell him to Arsenal or City if must be. To Everton. Or to Bayern. Just sell him because he can perform better elsewhere and you better not use him at all.

3. Klopp needs to get his head out of his arse and get a proper midfield and a couple of proper defenders.
I understand that he wanted to start little in a season without Europe. Makes sense to form a unity rather than to overkill with players.
But a midfield of Lucas, Can, Wijnaldum in front of a back four of Clyne, Lovren, Klavan and Milner is just so poor. Not much wrong with Clyne and Wiji here but the rest ffs.
Matip, Henderson raise the quality a litte bit but it's not enough. Not good enough. Can ffs. So poor technically.
It's a miracle Liverpool are in top four, and staying in top four will be a challenge with this team, especially with Mané absent.

Klopp needs to do more than his willpower and team spirit shtick. During a season, there's games where the willpower and fighting spirit are inevitably in ebb (for example against no name opponents *cough*), and a certain standard of individual quality will be needed to bridge these instances.
So far the individual quality he recruited was not enough.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:19 pm

4. Give Lallana a couple of games rest
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Post by iftikhar Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:38 pm

While I don't exactly disagree with your assessments, I believe the problem is elsewhere entirely. The game highlighted two of our recurring problems:

#1. Failure to break-down an organized defense. It seems we tend to play 433 with whatever resources we have and this formation don't seem to work (or work just as well) without the combination of Coutinho, Firmino, Mane & Lallana. A tweak in the system is not only essential to optimize the like of Sturridge, but also to negate the impact brought upon by the absence of the mentioned four.

#2. Failure to keep it tight in the back. Almost anybody stands a chance to score against us. While there can be a better combination of Clyne, Lovren, Matip & Milner; I don't think it's about the quality of the individuals rather the system put into place with them.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:05 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
I would be interested in seeing a goal difference stat of minutes Liverpool played WITH and WITHOUT Lucas this season. I'd bet the difference is staggering.


yeah well so I did that quickly -calculating the Liverpool's goal difference of minutes played with and without Lucas on the field (what would be the rough basic concept of GoalImpact)- and the difference is NOT staggering.
In PL, both are about 2:1 relation goals scored:conceded.

With the inclusion of league cup games (which Lucas mostly started), all in all Liverpool actually have far a better scored/conceded ratio with Lucas ON lol.

So that hypothesis by this Hans guy was rubbish.
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Post by mr-r34 Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:51 am

We need to

-Bring Sahko back in because his a beast.
-Buy a Starting CM
-Sell sturridge and buy a player who fits into klopss 4-3-3 system as klopp never changes his style.
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Post by donttreadonred Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:51 pm

Hans Quote:

@Hapless_Hans wrote:Watching the atrocious performance in the league cup semi at Southampton, I'm reminded of earlier instances of similarly atrocious performances that occur periodically between the great games Liverpool have.

I think there are some constants in those games which Liverpool need to address if they want to get anywhere.

1. Sell Lucas ASAP. The guy is a poor player and under Klopp serves as the equivalent to Tymoshtshuk for us under van Gaal - he's brought on, either in later phases of a game, in rotational games, or defensive minded formations, with the intent and in order to provide 'stability' but actually effectively serves to destabilize everything with his lethargic, slow ass and technically poor play.
I would be interested in seeing a goal difference stat of minutes Liverpool played WITH and WITHOUT Lucas this season. I'd bet the difference is staggering. He's a huge liability and has been all season.

2. Same goes for Sturridge, the difference here is that Sturridge is not a poor player, on the contrary he's surely one of the most accomplished and lethal finisher around.
But apparently him and Klopp just don't work together. Not sure why, I'd put it down to both mentality differences and to a certain absolute positional and tactical obliviousness Sturridge tends to display.
I don't think I ever see him sprinting. He just strolls all around the pitch, coming back to the middle line with no reason.
But I don't even know whether it's accurate to pin it on Sturridge. Bottom line however is it's not working when he's starting. Not at all. No pressing, no creativity, no fluidity.
Sturridge's presence apparently is pure Kryptonite to Klopp's way of playing

Sell him while he's still worth a lot. Sell him to Arsenal or City if must be. To Everton. Or to Bayern. Just sell him because he can perform better elsewhere and you better not use him at all.

3. Klopp needs to get his head out of his arse and get a proper midfield and a couple of proper defenders.
I understand that he wanted to start little in a season without Europe. Makes sense to form a unity rather than to overkill with players.
But a midfield of Lucas, Can, Wijnaldum in front of a back four of Clyne, Lovren, Klavan and Milner is just so poor. Not much wrong with Clyne and Wiji here but the rest ffs.
Matip, Henderson raise the quality a litte bit but it's not enough. Not good enough. Can ffs. So poor technically.
It's a miracle Liverpool are in top four, and staying in top four will be a challenge with this team, especially with Mané absent.

Klopp needs to do more than his willpower and team spirit shtick. During a season, there's games where the willpower and fighting spirit are inevitably in ebb (for example against no name opponents *cough*), and a certain standard of individual quality will be needed to bridge these instances.
So far the individual quality he recruited was not enough.
Appreciate the analysis Hans, though I'm not sure I agree with all of it. You do, however, hit on a lot of good points.

1) Lucas - No qualms here. He’s given his all while here, but it’s time for him to move on. He can’t play in midfield anymore, and I personally can’t stand him as a CB. At the very least, he tends to concede a lot of free-kicks, especially in dangerous positions. I appreciate his personality in the dressing room, but I can’t justify the player wages simply for a team morale advisor. ’Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish…’

2) Sturridge is a tough situation. He is not wrong with his recent quotes about being the best striker at the club. Listen to Klopp’s quotes on his quality in training; the man clearly rates him, as well. However, our approach right now simply suits other players better. Firmino is simply perfect for the central role, especially with Phil and Mane on either side of him. Origi also has massive potential. Capable of playing central or wide, as a target-man or running in behind, his versatility and raw ability make him the future for us at CF (in my opinion).

So, where does this leave Sturridge? Well, I’d certainly like to keep him, as he has incredible ability. He’s simply too fragile to build a team around. however, you have to respect the player’s desire to play, as well. Therefore, if he wants to go, I would entertain offers for him… in the summer AND not to a top6 club in the PL. I’d be perfectly happy to send him to PSG, one of the Italian big-boys, or perhaps even somewhere in Spain. (For some reason, I have a hard time seeing him in Germany.)

3) I think you’re right here, but for the wrong reasons; if that makes sense?

Your assessment of our defense is spot-on. Lovren and Klavan are certainly not long-term solutions (and Klavan was never supposed to be). Milner is a fill-in until Moreno either sorts out his defensive game or we buy a replacement. We need at least another starting CB (either selling Lovren while he still has value, or relegate him to the bench/cups) and a starting LB. Matip is a good piece of our CB partnership, but I’m not convinced he should be the “leader”. Clyne is solid, but we may need an experienced RB for cover, depending on your assessment of TAA’s progress.

The midfield itself is clearly in transition. Henderson has played well for the most part this season, but I think this position could easily be upgraded upon in the summer. Bring in a Leandro Paredes, Johannes Geis, or the like in the summer, and we could see significant improvement. It’s possible this player could even be younger (Ruben Neves or Thiago Maia) with a view toward developing them behind Hendo and taking over from him within the next 18-24 months.

Emre’s development has seemingly stalled a bit this season, but I believe this is down to confusion of roles and other players simply outperforming him in their specific positions. Strangely enough, I think Emre may be the best CM at the club, but I’m not sure that he’s the best in any of our defined roles, at the moment. With that said, he’s still young and can develop into whatever Klopp wants him to be. He simply needs to settle on what that is…

Lallana has been rejuvenated in a slightly deeper role, this season. However, he’ll be 29 next year, and I have my doubts as to whether he’s really what we need for the long haul. I would expect Grujic/Can/Ejaria to be groomed to take his spot next to Wijnaldum. (On a related note, I believe Wijnaldum was bought to play this role, but was asked to drop deeper/more-conservative given Adam’s successful transition into the midfield role.)

4) Willpower & Team Spirit
I think you may be underrating Klopp’s effect here. I think I remember some stat that we have the most winners in the 90th and later since Klopp arrived…(source?) Even if not, there’s a renewed sense within the club that we’re never out of a match. I think that’s directly attributable to Klopp. That said, he does need more quality in the squad, but Klopp will always be predisposed to nurturing talent rather than buying ready made pieces. This simply takes time…

In summary, we do need some pieces, and I think we will see further changes in the squad this summer. We also need to remember that we’re really only in year-one of Klopp’s Liverpool project. He’s building something for the long-haul, unlike some other managers. Moreover, he will not throw his current players under the bus mid-season in order to promote his agenda. This is both a great aspect to have in a manager, but also incredibly frustrating for gauging the direction of transfer strategy. I supposed we just have to wait it out and enjoy the ride to a certain extent. Thumbs up
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Post by Red Alert Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:47 am

We're doing fine.

Our last month of form is worrisome but it's mainly due to depth.

We need to fix our defensive duo and our midfield is DEPRESSING as *bleep*.

Need to desperately get Matip fit and into the starting XI already and either make up with Sakho or sell him and *bleep* sign a quality CB. It's no surprise our defence goes to shit when Matip's not in there, the quality between he and Lovren Klavan is unreal. Lovren and Klavan should be back ups.

Anyway, our midfield.

Holy *bleep* our midfield.

Can Henderson and Wijnaldum.

rofl

I can't. It lacks literally everything. They don't offer much defensively, and they don't offer much offensively. It's no surprise we have 60%-70%+ possession a game, all they do is pass it sideways and backwards, sideways and backwards. It does my *bleep* head in. Grow a pair of balls and go forwarddddddddddd. The worst part is, not only are they useless IN possession, they're equally useless OFF THE BALL. They literally leave holes in the midfield so when we do get countered / one of their sideways passes goes astray, the opposition scores 9 times out of 10 because the 2 central defenders are isolated. And like I've already stated, our 2 central defenders aren't the best.

This midfield should be banned from playing football. I'd really like to see our win % with those 3 playing together.

The main reason we were solid at the start of the season was because we had Lallana in the midfield 3, and we had the luxury of having Coutinho in the final third which would carry the weight of creativity and we were able to score goals / kill off games.

It's the whole reason Firmino goes to shit when played on the wings, and why Sturridge has been so poor this season; there's literally no service at all with that midfield trio playing together.
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Post by Curtinho Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:06 pm

Henderson-Wijnaldum are fine in midfield, are you even watching the games? They do plenty defensively, and the whole 'backwards/sideways' thing has already been disproven multiple times. Henderson passes forward more and creates more chances than any other top DM in the league. Can is the real problem. I have no idea why he keeps playing when he's displayed time and time again that all he does is slow the team down, make poor decisions/loses the ball consistently and occasionally has a nice run/header. He is not good enough for this team and you see a massive difference in the fluidity of the team when the midfield consists of Hendo/Gini/Lallana.

Realistically speaking Firmino needs to play in the middle and our midfield needs to be addressed. Another defender would also be nice because Matip/Lovren is about all the depth we have right now though Gomez has shown a lot of promise and will only get better.

I don't mind keeping Lucas. He's good in a lot of ways and is fine for the cup games. Though I probably wouldn't deploy him as a CB.

But yeah, things that we need to address are the midfield, CB depth and having another pacey, direct option in the final 3rd to deputize or push Mané for a spot. Getting another creative midfielder that can work into Lallana's spot would be nice (wouldn't mind testing Ejaria out there more). Finally a starting quality CB that can push Matip and Lovren to start or be just under them would be ideal as well.

Still, I think the most glaring issue is that when we move Lallana up from the midfield and Can replaces him everything seems to go to shit. Not that it's just his fault because it's the way the three of them work together, but in general Can is just not good enough or suited for the way that we play, while Henderson and Wijnaldum both fit in very well when the balance is better. His speed of mind, technical ability and quickness are just not up to par.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:53 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:4. Give Lallana a couple of games rest


ffs

Lallana has been really, really poor in all of 2017. He had to play as soon as he wasn't injured anymore, he never gets a rest and he looks completely jaded.
Bad decisions, technical errors.

Speaking of technical errors.

@curtinho I know you love Henderson, and he's a fine player, but I watched him closely now and I can finally, ultimately conclude that no, he is not good enough for a club of Liverpool's ambitions.
He has personality, tactically strong, but just technically too poor. Sometimes he takes seconds to control simple balls, and his short passes or not well enough weighted or placed often times. Not good enough.

Did I say not good enough for your ambitions. Well let's put that differently. If you have ambitions to be a European top club, CL participant, maybe even compete for the league, you need to upgrade on Henderson (not to mention Can, Klavan, Lovren, Milner of course).

If you're fine with were you are, Henderson is a fantastic captain.
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Post by Nishankly Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:02 pm

Henderson, Can and Wijnaldum basically do the same thing.

Can and Wijnaldum taking no risks, Henderson not being good enough to take those risks alone.

He plays a midfield 3 of players who play for a pass percentage and 7/10 compared to Coutinho and Firmino who look forward every moment.

We need a DM, Move Henderson forward where he can get back to his original form and give us 10 goals 10 assists in a season.
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Post by McAgger Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:24 pm

We need a CF. Firmino cannot score when it matters. Sturridge is shit. Sell him.

We need to give Arsenal 40m+Sturridge. Give Sanchez 300k or whatever the *bleep* he wants. Make it happen, he wants to leave.

We need a CB
We need to get Van Dijk 100%. Doesn't matter how. Just get him. It would be travesty if we don't get this guy.

We need a DM
We need to go to Dortmund and bend them over for Weigl. Klopp needs to get us someone from Dortmund. And Weigl is the guy. I'm sick of playing nice. Get it done.

We need CM x2
Dahoud must be finalized first thing. We need him as a Lallana back up and rotation guy. And then get us someone that can make an impact now in the Can/Wijnaldum position. 9gollan would be nice.

We need a winger
Without Mane we are shit. We need a back up for him and someone to fight for the position with him. I would tear your arm off for Salah. Mahrez is available also. Huge quality is available here. I don't care how. Get it done.

These are the things we need to do.

I'm sick of this. The whole season just went up in flames We lost both the league and the cup in 4 days because we refused to *bleep* take care of these problems. It's not like we didn't know about these. This shit has been staring us in the face for years. Klopp knew it in the summer. Okay we had a great first half of the season. We knew we would lose players in this period. Now that's gone to shit because we refused to strengthen.

Coutinho - Sanchez - Mane
Lallana - 9gollan
Weigl
Milner - VVD - Matip - Clyne

Firmino, Salah/Mahrez, Dahoud, Wijnaldum, Origi, Hendo, and Lovren as the main depth.
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Post by Firenze Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:49 am

should target Alaba for 'depth' while you're at it

am I doing it right?

Be realistic ffs
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Post by Nishankly Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:56 am

loool
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:12 pm

@Firenze wrote:should target Alaba for 'depth' while you're at it

am I doing it right?

Be realistic ffs


This lol.

Makes no sense whatsoever to talk about Weigl, not much more sense to talk about Alexis.
You will not get them period.

On a serious note.

Why don't you try to get Jesé from PSG, even if just on a loan?
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Post by Curtinho Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:14 pm

Weigl has been shit and isn't close to Henderson.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:17 pm

As for the midfield, updating is not that easy.. how is Strootman doing? He could be one of the rare players who are both obtainable and an upgrade, no?
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Post by rincon Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:55 pm

Strootman has been doing great, but I very much doubt that he will leave Roma this summer, unless the offer is so high that they push him out. After sticking with him for so long while injured, he looks at home and says that he wants to pay the club back. I really don't think he would force his way out now.

Paredes and Nainggolan would be closer to an exit. Nainggolan would most likely go elsewhere to win trophies, don't see him trading Roma for Liverpool. Paredes on the hand would be a great pick up. He looks very talented and is already really good. Him I could see making a move to Liverpool and it would be an upgrade.
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Post by Curtinho Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:00 pm

Would love to get Strootman but I feel like that's a pipe dream. Paredes is another guy that would be really nice to get.

The thing with Henderson is that he's playing injured again, and hasn't been the same since his injury. Last season he had a very long stretch of below par play while he was playing injured as well. When he's fully fit he's a fantastic player but I'm starting to worry that this isn't something that will end up going away and we won't be able to fully count on him if that's the case.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:40 pm

@donttreadonred wrote:
Appreciate the analysis Hans, though I'm not sure I agree with all of it.

More like 'rant', lol. And here I go again.

@donttreadonred wrote:
Milner is a fill-in until Moreno either sorts out his defensive game or we buy a replacement.


Moreno will never sort anything out. His defensive game is a joke, and his offensive game frankly doesn't offer much than an engine. His setpiece deliveries are laughable, and it's depressing seeing him as the main guy to take them in a game like today.

Overall, he's simply a terrible player, in relation to the expectations of an European top club.
Buy a clear upgrade, and make Milner who has been decent in the role, the backup.
Get rid of Moreno who's just a waste of space really.
I'm sorry but there's no other way to put it.

He has had chances to show himself galore. Against weak opponents. He managed to not only not provide anything, but even get outclassed against Plymouth and Wolver *bleep* Hampton.

Uarrgh.
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Post by McAgger Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:08 pm

Coutinho - Sanchez - Mane
Lallana - 9gollan
Weigl
Milner - VVD - Matip - Clyne


Make it happen. We are not winning shit without those 4 quality additions. Doesn't have to be specifically those players. Would take Paredes if can't get Weigl. Would take Strootman/Kessie/Naby Keita if 9ggolan can't happen.

VVD must happen though.

Sanchez is the only impossible signing there. Hard to see anyone else that would fit as perfectly as him under Klopp.
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Post by iftikhar Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:44 am

Don't call me James wrote:
Coutinho - Sanchez - Mane
Lallana - 9gollan
Weigl
Milner - VVD - Matip - Clyne

Make it happen. We are not winning shit without those 4 quality additions. Doesn't have to be specifically those players. Would take Paredes if can't get Weigl. Would take Strootman/Kessie/Naby Keita if 9ggolan can't happen.

VVD must happen though.

Sanchez is the only impossible signing there. Hard to see anyone else that would fit as perfectly as him under Klopp.
Haven't I seen this before??? hmm
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:02 am

Don't call me James wrote:
Coutinho - Sanchez - Mane
Lallana - 9gollan
Weigl
Milner - VVD - Matip - Clyne


Make it happen. We are not winning shit without those 4 quality additions. Doesn't have to be specifically those players. Would take Paredes if can't get Weigl. Would take Strootman/Kessie/Naby Keita if 9ggolan can't happen.

VVD must happen though.

Sanchez is the only impossible signing there. Hard to see anyone else that would fit as perfectly as him under Klopp.


I can't understand why you can not be serious about this for once. Is this not serious to you? Am I more serious about Liverpool, than you, the supposed supporter?
Or are you a still a trolling Real fan at heart?

OF COURSE you can't get Weigl. And Sanchez turned you down already.
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Post by Curtinho Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:31 am

It doesn't matter who we have until Klopp learns to take a better approach or change how he gameplans against teams that play extremely defensively and look to hit us on the counter.

I'm sorry, but you can't blame the players constantly when we're dominating against the better teams in the league that are willing to open up and play football with us. Are you saying that this team, which beats or outplays teams with rosters like Chelsea, City, Tottenham, United and Arsenal, doesn't have good enough players to beat teams like Burnley, Swansea and co.?

We're looking at the wrong thing right now. This is not a player issue.
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Post by Sri Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:19 am

James, man, I love you and all, but quit this Sanchez nonsense.

Apart from the fact that he turned down Liverpool because he preferred living in London, do you really think Arsenal will sell him to Liverpool after how your board handled Suarez? If anything, we bought Sanchez to fill the role that Wenga wanted Suarez to have.

And what's this about him wanting out? Both him and Özil are in negotiations for new contracts and have stated explicitly many times that they would like to stay. All that crap you read about Chinese clubs being interested in Sanchez or making offers is just the song and dance between the negotiating teams.

For your own safety mate, ground your expectations.

Sri
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Things Liverpool need to do Empty Re: Things Liverpool need to do

Post by Sri Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:20 am

@Curtinho wrote:
We're looking at the wrong thing right now. This is not a player issue.


Well it is not *only* a player issue. However, you guys still need depth, can't deny that.

Sri
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