Suarez vs R9

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Suarez or R9?

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Post by titosantill Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:47 pm

here i go

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Post by titosantill Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:47 pm

suarez is only better at heading the ball. better shot? better volley? those are very debatable. the style of play matters in that context, that you see ronaldo score an array of goals by dribbling the goalkeeper doesn't equate to him not being able to volley the ball or him not having a hard shot. his goal against numancia in 04/05 or 05/06 for example, when zidane mistimed his shot. and he scored some crazy volleys too, one i remember assisted by either becks or zidane...he could turn it on when he wanted. wasn't bad at free kicks too, took a bunch at inter. suarez is definitely more acrobatic, i'll give him that

tactical- another vague concept. so ronaldo couldn't free himself to find space off the ball? i remember this being one of his biggest criticisms when he was at madrid (besides weight), people said he wasn't dribbling entire teams anymore, and was slowly becoming a bit of a poacher.

the intangibles- there are players that make their teammates better, to say "rare rare players" like there are only two or three that have ever existed is funny. but i'll give you that, don't get me wrong ronaldo could carry a team, barcelona had good players, way better than suarez did with pool. but ronaldo was carrying that side. i like how people say "well ronaldo never won this or that and had a good team". if you watched la liga then, barca lost that title late, and they lost it when ronaldo left to go to brazil before the season ended to play in either the confederations cup or copa america. they had maybe 2 or 3 games to go, and they lost the game immediately after he left...can't remember against who as i was probably following the madrid game, and that's what saw them lose a league title that year...yes, football is better organized now, which helps the modern day player, an international tournament would never start whilst a season is still going on these days. players will get some good rest before it. him leaving to play with brazil 3 games to the end saw us (madrid) win that title...but the internet and wiki probably doesn't remember that


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Post by titosantill Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:48 pm

i will give you suarez being more competitive. the most inspired ronaldo ever was, was prior to the 02 world cup, when he did everything to get fit and probably trained the hardest. that doesn't mean he was a poorer footballer. there are a ton of strikers who worked harder than ronaldo, and were more competitive, doesn't make them better. and it only came to haunt ronaldo late in his career

Results- the biggest flop of the galactico policy is that it has allowed room for these kind of comparisons to be made. by 05/06 the side was in the toilet. and it wasn't ronaldo's fault, nor zidane, nor figo, nor becks, nor raul- even though he should have been on the bench. 02-03, 03-04 really should have been ronaldo's years. he flopped against monaco, but we had a comfortable la liga lead. what the internet or wiki won't say is that ronaldo got injured i think after the monaco series. he missed the last 5 or 6 games due to injury. we lost the last 5 or 6 league games to close that season, and also lost to villa's zaragoza in the copa final at home, without ronaldo (as an aside becks scored a good freekick in that loss)
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Post by titosantill Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:48 pm

injuries marred that boy throughout, he was also injured in 02-03 our first leg against juve that we won 2-1, but raul had appendicitis or something and missed that game, del bosque hadn't given morientes a good run of games to play him alone up front so we played a crocked ronaldo. and suarez competing against messi isn't the competition i'd look at. i'd look at the defenders he's going against. i know, you can only play who's in front of you, i get that. but level of difficulty matters, at least to a certain extent...i don't see anything big in going against kompany or ivan ramis week in week out.

btw, the barcelona feud aside, i like suarez. and this is not a "i'm only saying i like the player, so people won't say i'm being biased" comment; its been documented here, i wanted us to sign him from pool instead of bloody james. always felt suarez and di maria on the same team would be dangerous. i'd still take ronaldo even in 2004/05 over him. you can't compare suarez to once in a lifetime players like that. take into account that there are still people who are even debating suarez vs benzema or suarez vs lewandowski, and you think he's better than ronaldo?!? you might as well say he's the best cf we've seen in the last 30 or so years, which would be ridiculous......long ass post, lol i know
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Post by Kebab Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:51 pm

Here titosantil ejaculates again
will take me 30 minutes to read
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Post by Kebab Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:09 pm

Agreed as i usually do
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Post by alexjanosik Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:00 pm

titosantill wrote:suarez is only better at heading the ball. better shot? better volley? those are very debatable. the style of play matters in that context, that you see ronaldo score an array of goals by dribbling the goalkeeper doesn't equate to him not being able to volley the ball or him not having a hard shot. his goal against numancia in 04/05 or 05/06 for example, when zidane mistimed his shot. and he scored some crazy volleys too, one i remember assisted by either becks or zidane...he could turn it on when he wanted. wasn't bad at free kicks too, took a bunch at inter. suarez is definitely more acrobatic, i'll give him that

tactical- another vague concept. so ronaldo couldn't free himself to find space off the ball? i remember this being one of his biggest criticisms when he was at madrid (besides weight), people said he wasn't dribbling entire teams anymore, and was slowly becoming a bit of a poacher.

the intangibles- there are players that make their teammates better, to say "rare rare players" like there are only two or three that have ever existed is funny. but i'll give you that, don't get me wrong ronaldo could carry a team, barcelona had good players, way better than suarez did with pool. but ronaldo was carrying that side. i like how people say "well ronaldo never won this or that and had a good team". if you watched la liga then, barca lost that title late, and they lost it when ronaldo left to go to brazil before the season ended to play in either the confederations cup or copa america. they had maybe 2 or 3 games to go, and they lost the game immediately after he left...can't remember against who as i was probably following the madrid game, and that's what saw them lose a league title that year...yes, football is better organized now, which helps the modern day player, an international tournament would never start whilst a season is still going on these days. players will get some good rest before it. him leaving to play with brazil 3 games to the end saw us (madrid) win that title...but the internet and wiki probably doesn't remember that


Volleys goes to Suarez and it is not debatable. Shots maybe debatable but I think Suarez is better. Lets for the sake of discussion call it a tie.

Tactical is not even a debate. The fact you even debate this is wrong imo. I am not just talking about movement to free space for himself. That is what CR7 does. Very selfish movement that can even be detrimental to the team.
Suarez can move to free himself up better than R9 even could but more importantly he can move to free up space for the team. He has an outstanding appreciation of space and moving to create space for his teammates, particularly for Neymar, Messi and Iniesta. He does this by moving horizontally dragging the Cb's and FB's (wide or inward) or by moving vertically. There is a reason Messi and Neymar enjoy far more space nowadays. In short, Suarez is the best mover off the ball I have seen.

Even apart from movement, he is just better tactically. He is tactically very intelligent and just more often than not makes the right play. He knows when to combine, when to dribble, when to come short, when to go long.Just more tactically intelligent than R9.

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Post by alexjanosik Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:17 pm

titosantill wrote:injuries marred that boy throughout, he was also injured in 02-03 our first leg against juve that we won 2-1, but raul had appendicitis or something and missed that game, del bosque hadn't given morientes a good run of games to play him alone up front so we played a crocked ronaldo. and suarez competing against messi isn't the competition i'd look at. i'd look at the defenders he's going against. i know, you can only play who's in front of you, i get that. but level of difficulty matters, at least to a certain extent...i don't see anything big in going against kompany or ivan ramis week in week out.

btw, the barcelona feud aside, i like suarez. and this is not a "i'm only saying i like the player, so people won't say i'm being biased" comment; its been documented here, i wanted us to sign him from pool instead of bloody james. always felt suarez and di maria on the same team would be dangerous. i'd still take ronaldo even in 2004/05 over him. you can't compare suarez to once in a lifetime players like that. take into account that there are still people who are even debating suarez vs benzema or suarez vs lewandowski, and you think he's better than ronaldo?!? you might as well say he's the best cf we've seen in the last 30 or so years, which would be ridiculous......long ass post, lol i know


Your first post and this post to an extent talks about luck and injuries. A lot of would have, should have, could have. You really dont want to go down that road.
I can do it all day long with Suarez. What if Suarez had not missed the first few games in that amazing Liverpool season through suspension? What if Gerrard had not slipped? Liverpool would have undoubtedly won the league.
What if Suarez had not bitten Chiellini? Uruguay would have almost certainly gone deep with Suarez at WC 2014.
What if the FIFA ban wasnt so draconian and Suarez had been available for CA 2015? Uruguay would have been a serious contender for sure with Suarez.
What if Suarez had not unluckily gotten injured and missed the ongoing Copa? Uruguay would have been a contender and we could be watching Messi vs Suarez tomorrow.

More importantly, what if Suarez had gotten a big club move early in his career like R9? What if Barca had gone for Suarez instead of that scrub Ibra in 2009. We can play the what if scenario all day long. But fact is, for every unlucky circumstance you can bring up for R9, I can bring up 2 for Suarez.

I respect your opinion but I am flabbergasted how you can consider 2004/05 R9 better than Suarez. For me, it is a no contest. Suarez wipes the floor with that version of R9.
Peak R9 vs peak Suarez is close and I can understand if you think R9 is better.
But when you say 2004/05 R9 is better, I find it hard to take you seriously.

Regarding R9 facing better defensive teams, two words.
Atletico Madrid. Atletico Madrid are a far superior defensive unit than anything R9 faced in his career. As a team defense, they are as good as any team in history.
I am sure you recall that PTB teams were our Achilles heel. We struggled to create jack against them even with prime Messi and Xaviesta. We struggled massively against Simeone's Atletico and were winless in 6, barely registering any chances.
Suarez comes in and we suddenly become brilliant against PTB teams. We start smashing parked buses and win 6 straight against Atletico with Suarez being the MVP and the biggest reason for the change.
Hell, even in this years quarters, Suarez scored a brace to give us a win.

PTB teams are far more common these days and are just as difficult to break down(if not more ) than any individual defender back in the day. And yet Suarez is brilliant against them.
So your back in the day better defenses argument doesnt hold.

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Post by alexjanosik Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:26 pm

Now coming to CL. You can dress up the pig any way you want. Fact remains that R9 was a flop at CL level.
Suarez waited so long to have a legitimate shot at the CL and delivered first chance he got. One of the best knockout stage performances by a striker in the CL.
Scored twice away from home against PSG putting the tie to bed. Scored twice away from home against City putting the tie to bed. Brilliant against Bayern. We saw how important he is to our team after he got substituted in the second leg. Bayern gained the ascendancy.
MOM in the final against Juventus. Completely shut down Pirlo enabling us to dominate the game(part of the tactically being superior part I was talking about) while also being dangerous offensively.
This season, he again had a very good CL campaign. Scored a brilliant volley against Arsenal and was very good against Atletico too.
Much better impact than anything R9 ever did in the CL.

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Post by titosantill Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:54 pm

the talk of injuries isn't to say, ronaldo is great because he almost won this or that. its to debunk the idea that ronaldo's teams didn't win because he caused it by not playing well. when people go the "he only won one league" route, it implies he flopped. well, the guy was injured, barcelona didn't quaify for ucl when he was there, and he played a handful of ucl games at inter before getting injured. once again, not saying "he would have won this or that", but you can't say "he flopped" if he didn't even play

as far as suarez' ucl, i respect his impact, i still don't see how thiago silva , kompany, chiellini, bonucci et al would have posed any distinct problems for ronaldo. especially with messi and neymar by his side as well. once again, i respect the suarez impact for this time, but i'm looking at the degree of difficulty. anybody would have flopped at madrid being coached by luxembourgo, lopez caro, juan ramon et al. the game changes. but skill for skill ronaldo's my pick all day.

lol for what its worth, i'd take suarez over inzaghi, kluivert and vieri though. he's better than them
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Post by Rebaño Sagrado Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:31 pm

Struggling to understand how you can say Suarez has a better first touch than Ronaldo.
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Post by titosantill Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:45 pm

oh and i'm sorry, atletico, great defensive team. but here we go again with being enamored by the present. soon we'll have a "is atletico the best defensive team we have ever seen" thread. just cos they're one of the few who take defense seriously doesn't now mean we have never seen anything like them
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:27 pm

Alex, what may be perceived to you as 'arguments' are merely inconspicuous bias camouflaged and fueled by your own factually incorrect opinion.

The fact that you've asked me to provide arguments as to why I think R9 is stupendously superior to Suarez proves you either haven't seen the Brazilian in action, or you have and you simply refuse to acknowledge reality for whatever reason.

Personally, and as far as comparisons go, I only feel the need to provide arguments when the answer is not obvious and the two entities being compared to each other are close enough level-wise to create a conundrum.

You're comparing two players from different tiers. Let's leave it at that.
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Post by alexjanosik Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:57 pm

titosantill wrote:the talk of injuries isn't to say, ronaldo is great because he almost won this or that. its to debunk the idea that ronaldo's teams didn't win because he caused it by not playing well. when people go the "he only won one league" route, it implies he flopped. well, the guy was injured, barcelona didn't quaify for ucl when he was there, and he played a handful of ucl games at inter before getting injured. once again, not saying "he would have won this or that", but you can't say "he flopped" if he didn't even play

as far as suarez' ucl, i respect his impact, i still don't see how thiago silva , kompany, chiellini, bonucci et al would have posed any distinct problems for ronaldo. especially with messi and neymar by his side as well. once again, i respect the suarez impact for this time, but i'm looking at the degree of difficulty. anybody would have flopped at madrid being coached by luxembourgo, lopez caro, juan ramon et al. the game changes. but skill for skill ronaldo's my pick all day.

lol for what its worth, i'd take suarez over inzaghi, kluivert and vieri though. he's better than them


Especially with Messi and Neymar by his side.You are looking at the degree of difficulty.
Surely you realize that what Suarez is doing at Barcelona is extremely difficult. R9 would never in a million years succeed in this team and scheme and the trident would be disbanded after one unsuccessful season.
Would R9 be happy playing third fiddle to Messi and Neymar. Would R9 be able to make the horizontal and vertical runs making space for the likes of Messi, Neymar and Rakitic? Most definitely not.
Would R9 be able to play with his back to goal, acting as a pivot for Neymar and Messi and bring them into play? Absolutely not.
Would R9 be able to feed off scraps and still come up with the clutch plays time after time after time? Absolutely not.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. You see MSN succeeding and automatically assume any Tom, Dick and Harry can make it work. They cant. It is not easy playing with Messi and that is the case even for great forwards. Henry, Villa, Ibra all struggled playing with MEssi.
Suarez makes it work because he is that damn good. He makes MSN tick. You are trivializing things by talking about degree of difficulty. It is extremely difficult to do what Suarez is doing. R9 would never in a million years work in this setup. He just doesnt have the skillset and would flop.

Skill for skill, R9 isnt better. He was a better dribbler and had more pace and acceleration. Suarez has a better touch, a better passer, a better shot, a better header. We already discussed the technical skills.

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Post by alexjanosik Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:03 pm

titosantill wrote:oh and i'm sorry, atletico, great defensive team. but here we go again with being enamored by the present. soon we'll have a "is atletico the best defensive team we have ever seen" thread. just cos they're one of the few who take defense seriously doesn't now mean we have never seen anything like them


And you are glorifying the past. Suarez has faced just as many defensively great teams if not more than R9.
Simeone's Atletico is one of the all time great defensive teams. They may not have the glamor of some random Italian defender but as a unit they are one of the GOAT defensive teams. And Suarez has performed every single time against them. R9 never faced a better defensive unit.

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Post by alexjanosik Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:03 pm

The Demon of Carthage wrote:Alex, what may be perceived to you as 'arguments' are merely inconspicuous bias camouflaged and fueled by your own factually incorrect opinion.

The fact that you've asked me to provide arguments as to why I think R9 is stupendously superior to Suarez proves you either haven't seen the Brazilian in action, or you have and you simply refuse to acknowledge reality for whatever reason.

Personally, and as far as comparisons go, I only feel the need to provide arguments when the answer is not obvious and the two entities being compared to each other are close enough level-wise to create a conundrum.

You're comparing two players from different tiers. Let's leave it at that.


As expected. You dont have a clue.

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Post by Cruijf Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:04 pm

The Demon of Carthage wrote:Alex, what may be perceived to you as 'arguments' are merely inconspicuous bias camouflaged and fueled by your own factually incorrect opinion.

The fact that you've asked me to provide arguments as to why I think R9 is stupendously superior to Suarez proves you either haven't seen the Brazilian in action, or you have and you simply refuse to acknowledge reality for whatever reason.

Personally, and as far as comparisons go, I only feel the need to provide arguments when the answer is not obvious and the two entities being compared to each other are close enough level-wise to create a conundrum.

You're comparing two players from different tiers. Let's leave it at that.


I have my doubts you've even seen R9 play tbh

Either join the interesting discussion thats going on or take your fake and childish ignorance back to the Madrid section.
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Post by Adit Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:11 pm

Suarez is playing third fiddle because he is level below both Messi and Neymar. When Messi was out it was Neymar who was your best player.

Besides R9 can't play third fiddle to messi and Neymar isn't an argument about his quality at all. Top players especially ball dominant players won't thrive when they are touching the ball least on front three.

Let's talk about finishing. Suarez is not an elite finisher and only gets this number because of the enormous chances created for him. He misses lot of sitters and easy Chances. R9 absolutely destroys him in this aspect.

Dribbling. Case closed, with the ball only Messi can make a case for better dribbler than R9 at prime.

First touch. Suarez first touch isn't even that is a world class player.

R9 in tight space is much superior player and had an amazing ability to get out. While Suarez resorts to diving because he has no way to go.

It's no wonder limited players like Suarez dives at every opportunity while true greats like Cryjff,Ronaldo,Messi,Zidane,Ronaldinho barely dived, they don't have to. They have enough arsenal to make something happen in those situations.
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Post by alexjanosik Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:28 pm

Adit wrote:Suarez is playing third fiddle because he is level below both Messi and Neymar. When Messi was out it was Neymar who was your best player.

Besides R9 can't play third fiddle to messi and Neymar isn't an argument about his quality at all. Top players especially ball dominant players won't thrive when they are touching the ball least on front three.

Let's talk about finishing. Suarez is not an elite finisher and only gets this number because of the enormous chances created for him. He misses lot of sitters and easy Chances. R9 absolutely destroys him in this aspect.

Dribbling. Case closed, with the ball only Messi can make a case for better dribbler than R9 at prime.

First touch. Suarez first touch isn't even that is a world class player.

R9 in tight space is much superior player and had an amazing ability to get out. While Suarez resorts to diving because he has no way to go.

It's no wonder limited players like Suarez dives at every opportunity while true greats like Cryjff,Ronaldo,Messi,Zidane,Ronaldinho barely dived, they don't have to. They have enough arsenal to make something happen in those situations.


He is not a level below Messi and especially not Neymar. I believe Suarez is a Messi level player and he is a level above Neymar.
So you admit that R9 wouldnt work with Messi and Neymar and that R9 with Messi and Neymar would flop.
See thats the beauty and genius of Suarez. He is a ball dominant player himself. We all saw how great he was when he was the main man at Liverpool and the play went through him.
You make the cardinal mistake of discrediting Suarez for being a successful third wheel while claiming that R9 is better because he wouldnt be as successful as a third wheel. Doesnt sound logical to me.
If anything, the fact that Suarez can play at a legendary level as a third wheel while being the MVP of the team should enhance his reputation and not detract from it.
He was legendary as the main man and is legendary as the third wheel. The thing is even though he is the third wheel in terms of on the ball opportunities( and in terms of seeing the ball in actually favorable areas to do so called magical things), he is actually the MVP of the team.

Suarez's first touch is outstanding. Nobody can shift play with his first touch like he does. He is slow and has no acceleration. So he tries to shift the play with his first touch( an incredibly difficult thing to do). More often than not he succeeds. But when it does not, it wrongfully gives the impression that his touch is poor. His touch is elite even by our team's standards.

And by no means is he a limited player. He is a legend of the game.

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Post by Lucifer Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:42 pm

Suarez having bad first touch is a big myth to be honest. He very often tries to make space with his first to do his trademark turning of shoulders move which leads to loss in possession. I have only one complaintas a Barca fan of if him is that his antics and shit diving. I mean okay I know it's suppose to trick ref but he sometimes due to this diving affects the flow and rythm of entire team. It doesn't help when ur no. 9 spends more time on ground than he should.

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Post by Bankz Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:37 pm

Isn't this suppose to be a troll thread? How does one even argue this with a clear consience? Just close this thread already pls.
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Post by Luca Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:54 pm

I think it's closer than some will admit. Suarez's numbers for Barcelona particularly exceed Ronaldo's, of course he has the advantage of playing with the best Barcelona team ever, a team that creates a lot of chances and scores even more goals. Suarez in Liverpool was also magical and obviously his personnel was nowhere near what it is today.

But for me, Ronaldo is one of the most talented players ever. In his prime, I only rate Messi above him.

The other thing you have working against you for a poll such as this is there are a number of Barcelona haters and a number of Suarez haters, while Ronaldo was somewhat unanimously liked by all, the bias alone killed this poll before it began. The other thing that killed it was Ronaldo being a better player though.

Maybe Suarez versus Batistuta or Henry, or something along those lines would be a better discussion

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Suarez vs R9 - Page 2 Empty Re: Suarez vs R9

Post by Valkyrja Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:00 pm

Cruijf wrote:
The Demon of Carthage wrote:Alex, what may be perceived to you as 'arguments' are merely inconspicuous bias camouflaged and fueled by your own factually incorrect opinion.

The fact that you've asked me to provide arguments as to why I think R9 is stupendously superior to Suarez proves you either haven't seen the Brazilian in action, or you have and you simply refuse to acknowledge reality for whatever reason.

Personally, and as far as comparisons go, I only feel the need to provide arguments when the answer is not obvious and the two entities being compared to each other are close enough level-wise to create a conundrum.

You're comparing two players from different tiers. Let's leave it at that.


I have my doubts you've even seen R9 play tbh

Either join the interesting discussion thats going on or take your fake and childish ignorance back to the Madrid section.


This should not be discussed at all tbh
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Post by Godon Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:12 pm

Hi guys..
Where do we even start to argue this from? OK, let me just drop this here and go back to my basement. You are simply comparing 2 different level/tier players here and there really isn't much to add to it tbh.. and, close this thead while at it. Thank you.

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Suarez vs R9 - Page 2 Empty Re: Suarez vs R9

Post by Lucifer Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:25 pm

Hi Godon! Welcome mate. Hope to see more of you Thumbs up
Regarding the discussion, u see this forum was started by the Buddhist monk who is now right hand of left of dalai lama's assistant. Hence we believe in the Buddhist principle that everything is questionable and nothing is absolute and often participate in discussion which may seem undiscussable as a practice to sharpen our debating skills. So do not get surprised when u come across topics such as this. Thnx also welcome once more.

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Post by Robespierre Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:46 pm

Luca wrote:I think it's closer than some will admit. Suarez's numbers for Barcelona particularly exceed Ronaldo's, of course he has the advantage of playing with the best Barcelona team ever, a team that creates a lot of chances and scores even more goals. Suarez in Liverpool was also magical and obviously his personnel was nowhere near what it is today.

But for me, Ronaldo is one of the most talented players ever. In his prime, I only rate Messi above him.

The other thing you have working against you for a poll such as this is there are a number of Barcelona haters and a number of Suarez haters, while Ronaldo was somewhat unanimously liked by all, the bias alone killed this poll before it began. The other thing that killed it was Ronaldo being a better player though.


For me , not even Messi

Luca wrote:
Maybe Suarez versus Batistuta or Henry, or something along those lines would be a better discussion

Agreed
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