Guardiola has failed Bayern Munich

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed May 04, 2016 3:23 pm

The fact that Pep is considered a "failure" because he didn't win the CL is in itself a testament to how good he is

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Post by Hapless_Hans Wed May 04, 2016 3:26 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:The fact that Pep is considered a "failure" because he didn't win the CL is in itself a testament to how good he is


Exactly.
It was a pleasure having him. Still a double to play for.

Let's also take a moment to realize that Tuchel's BVB, as 2nd, is on course to collect more league points than Klopp in his best, record breaking league winning season.

But yeah, winning Bundesliga is of course just the minimum requirement Rolling Eyes
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Post by CM Pep Wed May 04, 2016 3:50 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:The fact that Pep is considered a "failure" because he didn't win the CL is in itself a testament to how good he is


I think his detractors are pointing out that if he was any good, he would have won it with this 'stacked' team. He is being considered a failure because, apparently, he had a stacked team and couldn't deliver.

Not that I agree (far from it), but just clarifying.
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Post by Helmer Wed May 04, 2016 3:56 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:The fact that Pep is considered a "failure" because he didn't win the CL is in itself a testament to how good the team and their whole staff in the background is

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed May 04, 2016 3:56 pm

How is his team stacked? He by no means has a better squad than any other top 5 team (with the exception of Atleti, but they make up for this in discipline).
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Post by CM Pep Wed May 04, 2016 4:00 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:How is his team stacked? He by no means has a better squad than any other top 5 team (with the exception of Atleti, but they make up for this in discipline).


True. Adding to that, stacked teams do not necessarily convert to silverware, especially in KO tournaments.

Also, he has always been in the CL SF, which in itself is remarkable (look at Barca even with MSN).
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Post by alexjanosik Wed May 04, 2016 5:31 pm

How is Simeone multi dimensional and Guardiola not?
Guardiola is the most multi dimensional coach in the world and nobody comes even close.
To those claiming otherwise, I would just like a couple of questions answered.

If he wanted to, can Pep play the way a Simeone or a Mourinho plays? He could do so in his sleep. Any idiot worth his salt can park the bus and counter, which is why you see even the likes of Allardyce, Pulis, random EPL scrub manager pull it off. It is not rocket science. Two banks of 4, one of the forwards covers the side the ball is on. The lone forward works the channel or waits for the long ball. You can have minor variations here and there but that is it. And you see it every weekend in a dozen games. Only difference is Simeone has much better players( also doped to the brim) to pull it off.
Nothing tactically revolutionary about it. And there is absolutely nothing multi dimensional about it. Thats a load of complete and utter nonsense. Please explain what is so multi dimensional about the way Simeone ways. There is zilch. It is the same every single game of every single season barring minor varioations

Can Simeone get his teams to play the way Guardiola gets his teams to play the game? Before the player argument begins, lets assume he has the personnel Guardiola has. Even now, Atletico have a lot of talented players who can certainly play the Guardiola way.
Not in a million years can Simeone get his teams to play the Pep way. No one can. It takes a special kind of genius to play the way Pep plays and that is why Pep is unique. Guardiola's philosophy is the living embodiment of Cruyff's philosophy. He plays the game the Cruyff way, the only way it should be played. Up in heaven, the Dutchman himself must be proud of his disciple.

I admire Simeone but he can never get his teams to play the Pep way while Pep can do the opposite. Parking the bus and countering doesnt make someone multidimensional. Over the course of the two legs Bayern were the better team. They completely outplayed Atletico yesterday and should have gone through. They didnt but that happens. Fair play to Atletico and Simeone for hanging in. But to go from that to calling Guardiola a failure is a stretch.

I dont think he has been a failure at Bayern. He has reached the semis thrice in a row. The CL is the toughest competition in the world. Come the knockouts, it depends on a lot of factors. Luck, injuries, form, referee decisions all play a role. End of the day, semis is all one can realistically expect even from a team like Bayern. He has achieved that. He will have won the league thrice in a row. Is also in the Cup final. I fail to understand how anyone can deem that a failure.
Above everything else, Pep has brought Bayern a lot of attention( and I suspect the Bayern brass had that in mind when they signed him). Bundesliga and even Bayern were not taken seriously even after the treble. Pep brought a lot of mainstream attention to Bayern. During his tenure, they have made significant progress towards being counted along with the big three of Barca, Real and Manu. Ofcourse it is not all Guardiola but it is undeniable that he has brought Bayern a lot of mainstream attention.
This aspect shouldnt be ignored when discussing Pep's tenure and I suspect it is one big reason the Bayern brass were so desperate to resign him.

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Post by urbaNRoots Wed May 04, 2016 5:47 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:The fact that Pep is considered a "failure" because he didn't win the CL is in itself a testament to how good he is

For three years straight. With a massive squad + many more signings at his disposal. Only two more teams in the world offer such accomodations for a manager. Winning Bundesliga with that squad is as much of an achievement as Celtic winning the Scottish league by being the richest club in the league by far.

Bayern didn't sign him to be dominant in the league, Bayern already were that before Pep. They signed him to make Bayern dominant in Europe, they gave him every accomodation and defended him at every turn. He failed them.

Now that Carlo gets the team I expect him to make Bayern great again.
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Post by Chumlum Wed May 04, 2016 6:07 pm

I don't share the impulse to rush to extremes in fan commentary & punditry. We can point out that he fell just short of the biggest goal, three seasons in a row (losing to some pretty stellar teams, mind you), and that's certainly a disappointment. But he also, overall, brought a lot of benefits in his time at Bayern and he's leaving behind a very promising squad, too ... plenty of good players left, with years ahead of them, and a lot of experience being coached by one of the game's top, universally respected coaches.

Honigstein has some decent balance in his remarks here: http://www.espnfc.us/club/bayern-munich/132/blog/post/2864695/bayern-will-benefit-from-guardiolas-triumphs-and-faillures-for-years-to-come

I'm not a Guardiola stan, and suspect a number of his innovations in tactics & personnel were a matter of gilding the lily, but I do have a lot of respect and admiration for his work.

At Man City, he'll once again have vast resources (as with Barca & Bayern), but he'll also be in a league where he has 3-5 title contenders at the outset of the season, versus just one or two in Spain/Germany. I'm interested to see how he does.
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Post by Ion Creanga Wed May 04, 2016 6:34 pm

Pep was average for Bayern standards as results.

They had 4 big games in Europe during Pep's years: Real, Barca, Juventus, Atletico. They got destroyed in 2 of them by Real and Barca, won a close game against Juve and lost a close game to Atletico. That's a pretty bad record imo, considering the years before Pep.

During Pep's years, 3 teams were better in Europe than Bayern:
-Atletico: 2 Finals (at least), 1 QF
-Real, 1 Cl won, 1 semi-final, and remains to be seen this year
-Barca 1 CL won, 2 QFs

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Post by Robespierre Wed May 04, 2016 7:30 pm

Many think he failed with Bayern , but not Bayern fans who are satisfied for his job and thank him for this. It should make us thinking hmm
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Post by Mr Nick09 Wed May 04, 2016 7:40 pm

how many bayern fans do we have on here? if you want to know what they really think, this is not the place. To each his own opinion
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Post by Valkyrja Wed May 04, 2016 7:44 pm

Robespierre wrote:Many think he failed with Bayern , but not Bayern fans who are satisfied for his job and thank him for this. It should make us thinking hmm


check bayernzone Laughing
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Post by Robespierre Wed May 04, 2016 7:58 pm

Mr Nick09 wrote:how many bayern fans do we have on here? if you want to know what they really think, this is not the place. To each his own opinion


Me , Tom , Hapless  , BAYERN_MUNICH and short circuit are already 5.
5 is enough to bring down any government hmm
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Post by VivaStPauli Wed May 04, 2016 8:31 pm

Ion Creanga wrote:Pep was average for Bayern standards as results.

They had 4 big games in Europe during Pep's years: Real, Barca, Juventus, Atletico. They got destroyed in 2 of them by Real and Barca, won a close game against Juve and lost a close game to Atletico. That's a pretty bad record imo, considering the years before Pep.

During Pep's years, 3 teams were better in Europe than Bayern:
-Atletico: 2 Finals (at least), 1 QF
-Real, 1 Cl won, 1 semi-final, and remains to be seen this year
-Barca 1 CL won, 2 QFs



This imho. Not the fact that he lost in the semis 3 times is bad, but how he did it is, and that he never eliminated a top team on the way there.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed May 04, 2016 8:34 pm

Juventus are not a top team? Laughing
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Post by Hapless_Hans Wed May 04, 2016 8:35 pm

Juve is a top team, and we eliminated them. They're better than City, Real, and Atletico in my humble opinion.
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Post by Cruijf Wed May 04, 2016 8:35 pm

Juve aren't a top team? (edit: BC and Hans beat me to it Laughing)

I agree with Ion's analysis tbh, but to call it a failure is too harsh. I'd say winning 3 league titles and reaching the CL semis every year is meeting expectations. More than that would've been a bonus. Average is a good word, not great but not a failure.

And calling him a fraud is just idiotic Laughing


Last edited by Cruijf on Wed May 04, 2016 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by zenmaster Wed May 04, 2016 8:36 pm

He did descent in Bayern. Reaching in last 4 in CL itself shows the consistence and confident they had in themselves.

Looking forward to see his fight in PL.
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Post by Cruijf Wed May 04, 2016 8:37 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:Juve is a top team, and we eliminated them. They're better than City, Real, and Atletico in my humble opinion.


Not Atletico IMO. They are the best team in the world along with Bayern and will comfortably win the CL. Juve are just behind though.
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Post by Lord Awesome Wed May 04, 2016 8:41 pm

Juve had a vital goal taken away.

Bayern were already playing for free.
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Post by VivaStPauli Wed May 04, 2016 10:00 pm

Juve were done in by the ref, and had half their squad injured. Agreed on the rating on prime Juve with a fit squad though.
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Post by CBarca Wed May 04, 2016 10:50 pm

Alex just killed this thread

Someone lock it pls

I've always wanted Alex to occasionally ghost into the general section and speak his mind Proud
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed May 04, 2016 11:24 pm

Alex I don't know if we can write off Simeone like that. He plays the way he plays because it's the most effective for the players he has. Could he try to play possession with his current squad? Perhaps, but why would he if this way works for him? That being said he seems like an extreme pragmatist and if given Barca's squad I very much doubt he would try to play 442 counter football.
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Post by farfan Thu May 05, 2016 12:03 am

CBarca wrote:Alex just killed this thread

Someone lock it pls

I've always wanted Alex to occasionally ghost into the general section and speak his mind Proud


" Barça philsophy is the best ! "
" Guardiola is a genius   ! "
" Any idiot can park the bus, takes no tactical nous  !"
...

Some groundbreaking stuff here, and clearly something we never saw in this section from Barça fans . hmm


Last edited by farfan on Thu May 05, 2016 12:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by farfan Thu May 05, 2016 12:06 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Alex I don't know if we can write off Simeone like that. He plays the way he plays because it's the most effective for the players he has. Could he try to play possession with his current squad? Perhaps, but why would he if this way works for him? That being said he seems like an extreme pragmatist and if given Barca's squad I very much doubt he would try to play 442 counter football.





Exactly .

And inversely , Does anyone actually believe that  Guardiola would do more  with that Atletico Squad ? Laughing
Simeone is literally getting the best possible results out of them  .
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