Jornada 33 : Barcelona v Valencia : Sunday April 17

Donuts wrote:yes yes lets just sell messi buy back pedro because he runs around everywhere and presses.
definite upgrade to messi

no he wants a player in messi level with pressing and running. still doesnt understand that a player in messi level will not press. As a second fiddle neymar presses but give him the throne he will stop running in a few months. every big player has been there and done it. maximum in 2 years all of them stopped running. messi is the one who lasted 8 years, thanks to his family guy attitude. He thinks Neymar and Suarez will press and run forever in next 5-6 years and selling messi is the solution. in reality its opposite as selling him will destroy the team

Doc wrote:1) Yeah, Messi has become a defensive liability. Whether it be by design or on his own accord, he rarely tracks back to at least give the defensive make up strength in numbers. The reasons has been beaten to death and vary depending on who you ask but that fact still remains.

2) No idea if I would agree or disagree because I simply don't know what is the measurement used for pressing. Even you would agree that running around chasing balls and shadows =/= pressing. And to blame 1 guy as to why you're not pressing properly is actually unfair.

3) Totally not a Madrid fan's place to answer.

Who talked about running around chasing shadows?
It was the same when he was false 9 and it is the same now.
When he was false 9, he didnt press even when the CB or GK was 5 yards from him. Xavi would run 20 yards to press.
Now he is RW, again no pressure on the player with the ball. He just stands there while it is up to Suarez,Rakitic and Alves to press. And yes, he is the reason we are not a good pressing team. Pressing from the front requires all the forwards. If one forward slacks, it just doesnt work. And we all know who the slacker is.
I am open to arguments. Can you enlighten me on why else we are such a poor pressing team. When the likes of Rayo, Atletico, Bilbao,Sevilla, random Spanish team , random English team can do it, why cant we?

The reason I brought up chasing shadows and players is that, usually, the distance covered tends to be used as a way of showing which team pressed the most. Going by what you usually discuss, I don't think that (alone) qualifies as pressing.

Anyway, I can't "enlighten" anyone as to why Barcelona don't press well enough anymore as you all have your own theories to go by. I do know pressing or the concept of pressing is something that is down to the manager instilling a certain work ethic and concept into his players. So my own theory is that if there is someone that should be addressing this lack of proper pressing, it is Lucho because, as you rightfully said, if others can do it, why not Barcelona.

Again, I am in agreements with you on Messi's being a defensive liability. I actually see, as in see in matches, what you are describing. I just don't think him slacking off is the sole reason because quite frankly, he was slacking off while you guys were unbeaten for, what, six months. It is when all 3 started to not help out is when things really started to have an adverse effect.

Have to say, Doc knows whats up.

Doc wrote:The reason I brought up chasing shadows and players is that, usually, the distance covered tends to be used as a way of showing which team pressed the most. Going by what you usually discuss, I don't think that (alone) qualifies as pressing.

Anyway, I can't "enlighten" anyone as to why Barcelona don't press well enough anymore as you all have your own theories to go by. I do know pressing or the concept of pressing is something that is down to the manager instilling a certain work ethic and concept into his players. So my own theory is that if there is someone that should be addressing this lack of proper pressing, it is Lucho because, as you rightfully said, if others can do it, why not Barcelona.

Again, I am in agreements with you on Messi's being a defensive liability. I actually see, as in see in matches, what you are describing. I just don't think him slacking off is the sole reason because quite frankly, he was slacking off while you guys were unbeaten for, what, six months. It is when all 3 started to not help out is when things really started to have an adverse effect.

How can Enrique implement a great press without the help of a forward. It is easy to say that the coach has to find a way but imo it just isnt possible. At best he can work around it, which is what he has done. We dont always press. Suarez tries alone to close down CB's and GK. In certain situations Rakitic and Alves press. Busquets goes in for the hard press when we lose the ball. But as you can see,it is not systematic and it is nowhere close to the likes of a Rayo, Bilbao, Atletico etc etc.
It makes for an interesting discussion. How do you think we can press effectively with a 4-3-3 when the RW doesnt press?

Pressing is not the problem. Barca last year rarely pressed and when they did it was by no means perfect. LE recognized the inability of the team to press cohesively and realized they'd be exposed if he tried.

When looking at Barca now you have to question what the difference is between this season and last season, and for me the biggest one is off the ball movement. It's simply not good enough from all of the front six, not just Messi. This is of course down to a decrease in intensity because of lack of motivation and fatigue due to lack of depth.

We're not seeing any big tactical changes from last season. Barca is doing the same thing as last year and the opposition teams are trying to counter in the same way. The only reason it's not working anymore is because of lack of off the ball movement.

Rarely pressed? I beg to differ. We are an elite pressing team when needed. Here's an example how Barca outpresses Bayern, with Messi participating:

http://streamable.com/m6d8

Obviously you can't make a team full of superstars play like this every single game or against La Liga minnows and sometimes fitness levels or complacency won't allow to do it. And yes, Messi is the biggest culprit whose motivation and fitness levels fluctuate the most since he's grown up and became a father. But we all know that and have to live with it, no one is going to sell Messi.

futbol wrote:Rarely pressed? I beg to differ. We are an elite pressing team when needed. Here's an example how Barca outpresses Bayern, with Messi participating:

http://streamable.com/m6d8

Obviously you can't make a team full of superstars play like this every single game or against La Liga minnows and sometimes fitness levels or complacency won't allow to do it. And yes, Messi is the biggest culprit whose motivation and fitness levels fluctuate the most since he's grown up and became a father. But we all know that and have to live with it, no one is going to sell Messi.

What do you expect that 30 second clip to prove? The first 15 mins of that Bayern game was insane, more due to Bayern marking man for man than anything else. After the game relaxed Barca didn't press nearly as aggressively.

Name one other big game where Barca pressed with their entire team to good effect. They didn't in the two clasicos, they didn't in the CL final, they didn't in any point last season other than 15 crazy minutes against Bayern.

Of course Barca pressed to some degree - all big teams have to nowadays. But this idea that Barca was an elite pressing team last season and aren't now because Messi isn't participating is complete nonsense.