How highly do you rate Leonardo Bonucci?

Curious to know what the forum thinks of him after reading the Chiellini thread. Chiellini and Barzagli are much talked about here and in comparison you don't hear much about the third Italian Juve CB. How good do you think Bonucci is? Underrated? Overrated? A fraud? World class? One of the greatest ever (@elmystique)?

I rate him as a great defender and thinking about it, he would start in a lot of sides in the world.

Good.

But it is another player exploited by 3-5-2 system.
This system exploits him like Chiellini and it permits to hide his limits (man marking  again).
While Chiellini can exploit his physical,Bonucci is that sort of defender very good to play the ball who is an essential quality for this system.

Who reminds Bonucci when he played in 4-4-2 under Del Neri ?
He was really crap.
3-5-2 developed him.

In 3-5-2 you need :

- a sort of regista to begin the action otherwise it's difficult to develop something with this system , the team 'd be excessively mashed   : Leonardo Bonucci
Napoli under Mazzarri had Paolo Cannavaro for it.
P.Cannavaro , unlike his brother Fabio , is a mediocre defender but he has good foot.

- a sort of " hybrid " fullback-CB, good to use the physical .  : Giorgio Chiellini .
Inter had Juan Jesus for it.
Juan Jesus looked like  decent in a system 3 and awful in a defence 4 . Unfortunately he is also much worse than Chiellini.

- a great defender  : Andrea Barzagli .
The great defender is great when he can play with every sistem , because he simply is great to mark the opponent.

I initially had the same skepticism but thought he was extremely good in the 4 man backline last yr.Infact his best year at Juventus.

He's good. He's more or less Pique level IMO just not as offensive but a little more secure at the back. A bit slower too. Still really good though.

I dislike the "system player" argument. Xavi would have struggled in a counter attacking team but that doesn't make him bad, in fact he is probably the best Spanish player in history. Is it really relevant that a player fluorishes the most in a particular setting?

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I dislike the "system player" argument. Xavi would have struggled in a counter attacking team but that doesn't make him bad, in fact he is probably the best Spanish player in history. Is it really relevant that a player fluorishes the most in a particular setting?

You make a good case and i agree with what you said. Yet when we are talking defenders and CBs in particular , it's maybe a little more complicated . I think more than any other position on the field , since under the right circumstances , many average CBs can actually look better than they really are. It's not that Bonucci can only be good at that , it's more likely that this particular system and overall attitude it goes with does a lot of favors for CBs in particular.

For instance , i can add more to what Robes said . Zapata was legitimately doing very well in a 3-5-2 at Udinese. All that people saw was a young CB not doing that many mistakes , "tactically sound" and clearing/winning the ball often when forwards came in his area , within zonal marking . As a result , his man marking looked good often , when in reality the system allowed it looked good , by mostly preventing situations altogether where opponents would frequently expose him .

He didn't have to necessarily drive the ball forward , he would never find himself alone on the counter , he always had the simple pass close to him to avoid fatal mistakes , he wouldn't have to be anything better than what the system required from him. He looked very promising to many under the circumstances .

Yet outside of that particular system which generally agrees with defensive attitude and defenders in general , he was often a liability . Xavi , or other players plying their trade under sub optimal circumstances , won't necessarily be liabilities all the time . Many won't fulfill their best in games , they could still be decent after a while . And i seem to remember Xavi was doing just fine with the counter attacking during 08-09 , which is something people tend to forget already. Barcelona 08-09 was pretty lethal in counter attacks and i can't remember Xavi struggling for it when called upon to contribute . It just wasn't his best , or the best way to unleash his full potential , that's all. He was still a prime asset to his team and still the same player on the field.

Now , Bonucci isn't a liability of course , but if anything else , Robes does have a point in what he says . It's something of an issue today when as a CB your best , or your comfort zone , isn't a 4man back line . Won't say he's any worse for it , rather that system allows him to be even better.

Having that said , i think he has impoved significantly over the years , not sure if that's an issue with him anymore . I'd surely have Bonucci over Chiellini , 4 or 3 backline , i know that much .

I rate him quite highly as a defender. Much higher than pretenders like Ramos and David Luiz.

It's hard to rate Juventus players, similar to PSG. Legends aren't born in current Serie zZZzZZ, playing against Empoli, defending against Gervinho, 40 year old Totti, 50 year old Di Natale, 60 year old Klose etc. And outside of it they've only had 1 good season in Europe where they got past the CL quarters in the last 10 years. So it's hard to rate. All I can tell you is that Juve's defenders aren't total scrubs but I haven't seen enough of them against elite attackers to claim something like "best in the world" or "top 3/5".

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I dislike the "system player" argument. Xavi would have struggled in a counter attacking team but that doesn't make him bad, in fact he is probably the best Spanish player in history. Is it really relevant that a player fluorishes the most in a particular setting?

Makes no sense.

He was our best defender in Europe last season. Barzagli was a sub, Chiellini was slipping and making stupid fouls, giving the ball as a gift. Bonucci was great.

And last year it was 4 man backline.

Not a world class player but great defender very underrated people consider him average I find that really amusing.

One of the best playmakers in Europe

futbol wrote:It's hard to rate Juventus players, similar to PSG. Legends aren't born in current Serie zZZzZZ, playing against Empoli, defending against Gervinho, 40 year old Totti, 50 year old Di Natale, 60 year old Klose etc. And outside of it they've only had 1 good season in Europe where they got past the CL quarters in the last 10 years. So it's hard to rate. All I can tell you is that Juve's defenders aren't total scrubs but I haven't seen enough of them against elite attackers to claim something like "best in the world" or "top 3/5".

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I dislike the "system player" argument. Xavi would have struggled in a counter attacking team but that doesn't make him bad, in fact he is probably the best Spanish player in history. Is it really relevant that a player fluorishes the most in a particular setting?

Makes no sense.

Ok, we can't rate high teams in Serie A and Ligue 1 based on league result.
By that logic, we can rate high only players from Barca, Real, Atletico, Bayern, Leicester ?

Ion Creanga wrote:

futbol wrote:It's hard to rate Juventus players, similar to PSG. Legends aren't born in current Serie zZZzZZ, playing against Empoli, defending against Gervinho, 40 year old Totti, 50 year old Di Natale, 60 year old Klose etc. And outside of it they've only had 1 good season in Europe where they got past the CL quarters in the last 10 years. So it's hard to rate. All I can tell you is that Juve's defenders aren't total scrubs but I haven't seen enough of them against elite attackers to claim something like "best in the world" or "top 3/5".

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I dislike the "system player" argument. Xavi would have struggled in a counter attacking team but that doesn't make him bad, in fact he is probably the best Spanish player in history. Is it really relevant that a player fluorishes the most in a particular setting?

Makes no sense.

Ok, we can't rate high teams in Serie A and Ligue 1 based on league result.
By that logic, we can rate high only players from Barca, Real, Atletico, Bayern, Leicester ?

No we can only rate players from Barca and Real.

Bonucci is a very good central defender when compared to non-Italian central defenders. He is good with the ball, can pass and seems to have control over the defense in general. His problem is that he is not quite the defender that other Italians were. Vierchowod, Baresi, Burnich, Gentile, Maldini (when he moved to central defense), Nesta or even Cannavaro and Materazzi more recently. And then, it would take quite a bit for Bonucci to improve on my favorite, Gaetano Scirea.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I dislike the "system player" argument. Xavi would have struggled in a counter attacking team but that doesn't make him bad, in fact he is probably the best Spanish player in history. Is it really relevant that a player fluorishes the most in a particular setting?

Great post. Couldn't ageee more with you.

futbol wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I dislike the "system player" argument. Xavi would have struggled in a counter attacking team but that doesn't make him bad, in fact he is probably the best Spanish player in history. Is it really relevant that a player fluorishes the most in a particular setting?

Makes no sense.

ok

Ion Creanga wrote:

futbol wrote:It's hard to rate Juventus players, similar to PSG. Legends aren't born in current Serie zZZzZZ, playing against Empoli, defending against Gervinho, 40 year old Totti, 50 year old Di Natale, 60 year old Klose etc. And outside of it they've only had 1 good season in Europe where they got past the CL quarters in the last 10 years. So it's hard to rate. All I can tell you is that Juve's defenders aren't total scrubs but I haven't seen enough of them against elite attackers to claim something like "best in the world" or "top 3/5".

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I dislike the "system player" argument. Xavi would have struggled in a counter attacking team but that doesn't make him bad, in fact he is probably the best Spanish player in history. Is it really relevant that a player fluorishes the most in a particular setting?

Makes no sense.

Ok, we can't rate high teams in Serie A and Ligue 1 based on league result.
By that logic, we can rate high only players from Barca, Real, Atletico, Bayern, Leicester ?  

You can rate them as you please, everyone is free to have his own opinions. MY opinion is that I haven't seen enough of Chiellini or Bonucci against elite teams to rate them as the "best" or "top 3" or whatever. I can clearly see that they are good defenders but to be labeled truly elite you have to show it against the best on the biggest stages, not against Roma, Empoli, Sassuolo or current Milan. That's how it works.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

futbol wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I dislike the "system player" argument. Xavi would have struggled in a counter attacking team but that doesn't make him bad, in fact he is probably the best Spanish player in history. Is it really relevant that a player fluorishes the most in a particular setting?

Makes no sense.

ok

Your premise is wrong. Xavi struggling in a counterattacking system is an absurd thought process. We're talking about the most complete midfielder in modern football. He would've maybe struggled in a counterattacking system if he was teamed up with other physically weak players like he was at Barca. But that applies to every physically weak midfielder: Özil, Kroos, Fabregas, Pirlo etc. That's why they usually get paired with the appropriate supporting cast. Which has nothing to do with the style. Why the hell would Xavi struggle if he played for Heynckes' Bayern infront of Schweinsteiger and Javi Martinez like Kroos did who isn't even half the player that Xavi was?

To me he is the perfect defender athletically and physically. He is fast, strong, his passing is even good.... Now for his brain, he makes some absolutely stupid decisions at times- I don't mean fouls, but decision making, when to press, when to back off, when to try to block a shot and when to let it go. He has improved in this area greatly, but this is his main area of improvement.

Honestly, he can play comfortably in a 4 man or 3 man back line, but in the 3 man he shines a little brighter- he sees more of the ball and he likes that. He also can take some greater risks pressing because there are two more central defenders with him.

6 years ago bonucci at 22 was making ridiculous errors and almost always costed juve during his first season. Then with Conte he became a perfect fit for the 3-5-2 for the reasons others commented, but he grew not just for the 3 man defense, but as a defender in general.

Last season he was our best CB in a back 4, benching Barzagli and outperforming Chiellini. Bonucci became our most complete defender, more physical than Barzagli, smarter than Chiellini, better with the ball than both. Top player for sure. Now Barzagli is having a better season this year, but not because Bonucci slowed down, Barza is just having his best season so far as a Juve player.

Not even the best Inter reject