Ultimate Manager Death Match - Premier League 2016/17

completely forgot about this thread. so is my man klopp still king of the mini lge

huh, Man City have only played 2 big matches this season???

tbf every match is a big match in the English Premier League

Games played (games newly added in red)
Arsenal - Liverpool 3-4
Spurs - Liverpool 1-1
Man United - Man City 1-2
Chelsea - Liverpool 1-2
Arsenal - Chelsea 3-0
Spurs - City 2-0
Liverpool - Man United 0-0
Chelsea - Man United 4-0
Arsenal - Tottenham 1-1
Man United - Arsenal 1-1
Chelsea - Tottenham 2-1
Man City - Chelsea 1:3
Man United - Tottenham 1:0


Standings
Conte 9 points 5 games
Klopp 8 points 4 games
Wenger 5 points 4 games
Poch 5 points 5 games
Jose 5 points 5 games
Pep 3 points 3 games



Standings translated into a points per game table
1. Klopp   2 ppg
2. Conte  1.8 ppg
3. Wenger 1.25 ppg
4. José 1 ppg
  Pep   1 ppg
  Poch 1 ppg

what a thread

The most creative thread title goes to Hans

Screw that.

Klopp

Pep at the bottom of the list

Games played (games newly added in red)
Arsenal - Liverpool 3-4
Spurs - Liverpool 1-1
Man United - Man City 1-2
Chelsea - Liverpool 1-2
Arsenal - Chelsea 3-0
Spurs - City 2-0
Liverpool - Man United 0-0
Chelsea - Man United 4-0
Arsenal - Tottenham 1-1
Man United - Arsenal 1-1
Chelsea - Tottenham 2-1
Man City - Chelsea 1-3
Man United - Tottenham 1-0
Man City - Arsenal 2:1
Liverpool - Man City 1-0
Tottenham - Chelsea 2-0


Standings
Klopp 11 points 5 games
Conte 9 points 6 games
Poch 8 points 6 games
Pep 6 points 5 games
Jose 5 points 5 games
Wenger 5 points 5 games


Standings translated into a points per game table
1. Klopp   2.2 ppg
2. Conte  1.5 ppg
3. Poch 1.33 ppg
4. Pep   1.2  ppg
5. José 1 ppg
  Wenger 1 ppg

Klopp is schooling them

All of Klopp's games were away too

Lot of games left to play.

Poch got this

BarrileteCosmico wrote:All of Klopp's games were away too

Nope, we drew with MU at home

Klopp wow

Games played (games newly added in red)
Arsenal - Liverpool 3-4
Spurs - Liverpool 1-1
Man United - Man City 1-2
Chelsea - Liverpool 1-2
Arsenal - Chelsea 3-0
Spurs - City 2-0
Liverpool - Man United 0-0
Chelsea - Man United 4-0
Arsenal - Tottenham 1-1
Man United - Arsenal 1-1
Chelsea - Tottenham 2-1
Man City - Chelsea 1-3
Man United - Tottenham 1-0
Man City - Arsenal 2:1
Liverpool - Man City 1-0
Tottenham - Chelsea 2-0
Man United - Liverpool 1-1
Man City - Tottenham 2-2


Standings
Klopp 12 points 6 games
Conte 9 points 6 games
Poch 9 points 7 games
Pep 7 points 6 games
Jose 6 points 6 games
Wenger 5 points 5 games


Standings translated into a points per game table
1. Klopp   2 ppg
2. Conte  1.5 ppg
3. Poch 1.29 ppg
4. Pep   1.166 ppg
5. José 1 ppg
  Wenger 1 ppg

Can't wait for Conte to school Klopp and Wenger in the next week and claim his throne tbh.

Sri wrote:

While I catch you here, @Sri , let's take a moment to reflect on this thread at the half way mark:

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Sri wrote:Raineri deserves to be in the mix. Also Slaven Bilic tbf.

Sri wrote:And Koeman, then we will have a much more interesting and regular update here

No.
This is a match between hyped managers, not between all good managers.

Besides, Everton, probably West Ham, and surely Leicester, are not teams of the same caliber as the big six.
We need a table where the performance of the manager plays the most meaningful role, and the number of star players the least meaningful.

We have now, looking at the PL table, the formation of a clear top 6 of clubs, which is exactly congruent with the 6 managers chosen to fight it out in this death match.

5th place Man United is separated from Everton by 5 points, which represents the single biggest point gap in the whole table, after the gap between 1st and 2nd place.

So we now can clearly and definitively conclude that the decision to focus on Pep, José, Klopp, Wenger, Conte and Poch was the right approach without the shadow of a doubt.

You guys wanted me to include Koeman, Bilic, Allardyce, of course Ranieri, least not last Pardiola..
This would have softened the framework of this death match to the point of meaninglessness and toothlessness:
Because while we're at it, why not include Mazzari, Puel, and Stokecelona mastermind Hughes, Moysie, main man Tony Pulis, wonderkid Eddie Howe?
And then we really would have just basically been one Aitor Karanka and one Sean Dyche away from merely replicating the Premier League table as it is.

This made no sense, and I argued as much. I'm pretty sure now you can finally understand. As for Ranieri, I said:

Hapless_Hans wrote:I explained before why Ranieri isn't included. I can explain again. After that, I'll expect the incessant questioning and second guessing of my design to stop.

This is a match between the hyped big name managers of the Prem.
Ranieri is too much of a grand-dadly, honorable gentleman that I would want him involved in this circus.
Besides, his managerial achievement of last season is beyond competition and it wouldn't do justice to this achievement, and neither the man, to have him sit at the end of this table, as he surely would. Leicester won't win many games against top teams this season. It's not a fair contest.

All right?
Moving on then.

Do you see it now? Why would we pick Raneri as the coach of Leicester, a team far inferior to those of his would-be competitors in this death match, to have to undergo this?
It wouldn't be a reflection of his performance as manager, and it would make a stupid looking table, Ranieri at the bottom with 0.7 ppg.

So, @Sri.

a "ok I guess you were right" would be nice. I don't ask for more.

Looking at this it just makes you wish Klopp had a better plan for facing the mid and lower table teams that play overly defensively. I also don't want to hear about the quality of our players because if anything this table shows that there's plenty of quality available. After last season and this one I think what needs to happen is a change or some kind of improved plan against that sort of team.

Still, this is very impressive.

LMAO Hans.

Tbf I wouldn't mind seeing wonderkid Eddie Howe in it. He's the future manager of Arsenal anyway

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Sri wrote:

While I catch you here, @Sri , let's take a moment to reflect on this thread at the half way mark:

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Sri wrote:Raineri deserves to be in the mix. Also Slaven Bilic tbf.

Sri wrote:And Koeman, then we will have a much more interesting and regular update here

No.
This is a match between hyped managers, not between all good managers.

Besides, Everton, probably West Ham, and surely Leicester, are not teams of the same caliber as the big six.
We need a table where the performance of the manager plays the most meaningful role, and the number of star players the least meaningful.

We have now, looking at the PL table, the formation of a clear top 6 of clubs, which is exactly congruent with the 6 managers chosen to fight it out in this death match.

5th place Man United is separated from Everton by 5 points, which represents the single biggest point gap in the whole table, after the gap between 1st and 2nd place.

So we now can clearly and definitively conclude that the decision to focus on Pep, José, Klopp, Wenger, Conte and Poch was the right approach without the shadow of a doubt.

You guys wanted me to include Koeman, Bilic, Allardyce, of course Ranieri, least not last Pardiola..
This would have softened the framework of this death match to the point of meaninglessness and toothlessness:
Because while we're at it, why not include Mazzari, Puel, and Stokecelona mastermind Hughes, Moysie, main man Tony Pulis, wonderkid Eddie Howe?
And then we really would have just basically been one Aitor Karanka and one Sean Dyche away from merely replicating the Premier League table as it is.

This made no sense, and I argued as much. I'm pretty sure now you can finally understand. As for Ranieri, I said:

Hapless_Hans wrote:I explained before why Ranieri isn't included. I can explain again. After that, I'll expect the incessant questioning and second guessing of my design to stop.

This is a match between the hyped big name managers of the Prem.
Ranieri is too much of a grand-dadly, honorable gentleman that I would want him involved in this circus.
Besides, his managerial achievement of last season is beyond competition and it wouldn't do justice to this achievement, and neither the man, to have him sit at the end of this table, as he surely would. Leicester won't win many games against top teams this season. It's not a fair contest.

All right?
Moving on then.

Do you see it now? Why would we pick Raneri as the coach of Leicester, a team far inferior to those of his would-be competitors in this death match, to have to undergo this?
It wouldn't be a reflection of his performance as manager, and it would make a stupid looking table, Ranieri at the bottom with 0.7 ppg.

So, @Sri.

a "ok I guess you were right" would be nice. I don't ask for more.

Your post was already answered on Page 2:

Sri wrote:

Sri wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:I explained before why Ranieri isn't included. I can explain again. After that, I'll expect the incessant questioning and second guessing of my design to stop.

This is a match between the hyped big name managers of the Prem.
Ranieri is too much of a grand-dadly, honorable gentleman that I would want him involved in this circus.
Besides, his managerial achievement of last season is beyond competition and it wouldn't do justice to this achievement, and neither the man, to have him sit at the end of this table, as he surely would. Leicester won't win many games against top teams this season. It's not a fair contest.

All right?
Moving on then.

I find much fallacy and delusion in this post. So, as a forum of the posters, by the posters, and for the posters, I expect the incessant questioning and second guessing of your design to continue. This is no authoritarian regime.

Here are the Arsene-specific points, at the risk of nitpicking:

- Wenger is not 'hyped'. He's got 20 years at the top level. None of the others have matched that (yet). Mou and Klopp have already had their turns finishing mid-table. Pep is an exception(al manager). If 'hype' is your criteria, then Wenger shouldn't be on that list. Nobody is 'hyped' about Arsenal or Wenger. At best, realistically, we'll finish second or third.

- Wenger is also a grand-dadly and honorable gentleman. Heck, he's probably the only non-arrogant manager in that list. Klopp is also down to earth, but neither have ever publicly thrown their players under the bus - that is just one possbile measure of being gentlemanly. And in fact, Wenger is so much of a granddad that I find him to be a dinosaur, past his sell by date, and incapable of winning any major honors with his stubbornness and unwillingness to change.

Though I do not agree with your reasons, based on the first six game weeks, I can agree on the choice of the managers in the list. It would still be interesting to have the likes of Koeman and Rainieri in the pool, but I see the risk that it ends up becoming a case of statpadding.

I am still unconvinced by your (lack of) argument(s) on why away wins should not get more credit.

@Hans

I can confirm an update is scheduled for later tonight

Games played (games newly added in red)
Arsenal - Liverpool 3-4
Spurs - Liverpool 1-1
Man United - Man City 1-2
Chelsea - Liverpool 1-2
Arsenal - Chelsea 3-0
Spurs - City 2-0
Liverpool - Man United 0-0
Chelsea - Man United 4-0
Arsenal - Tottenham 1-1
Man United - Arsenal 1-1
Chelsea - Tottenham 2-1
Man City - Chelsea 1-3
Man United - Tottenham 1-0
Man City - Arsenal 2:1
Liverpool - Man City 1-0
Tottenham - Chelsea 2-0
Man United - Liverpool 1-1
Man City - Tottenham 2-2
Liverpool - Chelsea 1-1
Chelsea - Arsenal 3-1
Liverpool - Tottenham 2-0


Standings
Klopp 16 points 8 games
Conte 13 points 8 games
Poch 9 points 8 games
Pep 7 points 6 games
Jose 6 points 6 games
Wenger 5 points 6 games


Standings translated into a points per game table
1. Klopp   2 ppg
2. Conte  1.625 ppg
3. Pep 1.166 ppg
4. Poch 1.125 ppg
5. José 1 ppg
6. Wenger 0.833 ppg

A few observation at this point, almost 2 thirds through the season:

- Klopp the only manager still unbeaten in a top 6 matchup

- if we compare the ppg of this top 6 death match with the overall ppg of the teams which are:

Klopp 1.96 (overall) vs 2 (top 6 death match)
Conte 2.458 vs 1.625
Pep 2.04 vs 1.16
Poch 2 vs 1.125
Jose 1.92 vs 1
Wenger 2 vs 0.833

we can see that Klopp is the only manager where the top 6 ppg is HIGHER than the overall ppg lmao, which is really crazy.

With all other managers, the overall ppg average is by far higher than the record against the fellow top sides, usually by a ratio of about 2/1 (only Conte ca. 1.5/1), Wenger's even more than 2/1

- we can conclude that Klopp OVERPERFORMS against top sides while Wenger strongly UNDERPERFORMS against top sides, with the others being relatively normal flat-track bullies

- this surely accounts for a good part of the hype Klopp gets vs the hate Wenger gets, even though Wenger overall collected one more point than Klopp - Arsenal fans are continually frustrated in the banter war surrounding big games, while Liverpool fans can get deluded into thinking they're better than they actually are as the big game record is above average.
For anyone wondering why the respective fanbases, and their attitude towards their managers, are the way they are, here is the explanation in simple numbers.

That's part of the story, but not the entirety of it.

That said, kudos for backing it up with some stats. God knows we need more fact based statements these days.