jibers wrote:

Robespierre wrote:tbh   the CL  won with Porto and Inter  ( last years was 45 years ago ) weren't   an ordinary thing. at all.

Porto was still the best in Portugal, Inter had a monopoly on Serie A.

Yes, I talked about CL , not leagues

On the other hand the matter about Guardiola here was born about he must win the CL to leave something of special in Bayern.
Do you think Mourinho would have been hyped at that time because he 'd won just 2 leagues ? Even I remind he wasn't better than Mancini
in that case even the Guardiola non-fans would have not much to say about him , because CL is always special.

Robespierre wrote:

jibers wrote:

Robespierre wrote:tbh   the CL  won with Porto and Inter  ( last years was 45 years ago ) weren't   an ordinary thing. at all.

Porto was still the best in Portugal, Inter had a monopoly on Serie A.

Yes, I talked about CL , not leagues

On the other hand the matter about Guardiola here was born about he must win the CL to leave something of special in Bayern.
Do you think Mourinho would have been hyped at that time because he 'd won just 2 leagues ? Even I remind he wasn't better than Mancini
in that case even the Guardiola non-fans would have  not much to say about him , because CL is always special.

Commendable no doubt, but they were not scrub teams. I've always said Mourinho was a fantasista manager.

futbol wrote:I don't see many differences. The tactical scheme is identical. He has different players so they individually do different things when they have the ball. When you have Ribery and Robben or Costa and Coman you don't combine your way through the center with short triangle passes in a telephone booth like with Messi (false 9), Xavi and Iniesta. You utilize the wings more. That's logical. But that's also irrelevant because 80 % of Pep's coaching is without the ball. The core of Pep's tactics is how to position his players to regain the ball as quickly as possible. PPP: Positioning, Pressing, Patience (in the buildup). Everything else is tactical nuances like making more use of long balls against Dortmund etc. and hardly worth mentioning in the grand scheme of things.

My comparison is not unfair. Maybe Bayern vs. Ingolstadt reads to you like United vs. Watford. And that's fair enough. There are also scrubs in EPL. But who are the German equivalents of Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, City, Tottenham, Southampton that he would be competing with? With a United squad no less that isn't head and shoulders above those teams but more or less at the same level. Pep's philosophy is not made for lesser teams. I want to see how he tries to play a high pressing game with this United squad in the Premier League.

I don't see why Guardiola should be criticized for any of that , for what he does with Bayern . Everything you mention , that's pretty much essential , why would he neglect all that , just to prove a point? Are other coaches expected to suddenly change their core views coming to a new team , no , they are expected to show what they are known for , but Guardiola should be different? To say what exactly , hey i can do it differently ? Or with a handicap.. I don't get it.

Guardiola is a coach who's famous for certain things , of course the core will be the same , that's why they brought him there. To reenact and create a Bayern in his own view. And he didn't copy paste Barca in Bayern , he could have stayed with that but he didn't . Sharing the same tactical core doesn't make Guardiola same ol same ol .
You can't copy paste in football , not with the same success at least. He more than adapted to Bayern and i've yet to be convinved of otherwise. If you can sufficiently explain your point on this i have no issue accepting it , but so far all i read about this was how Pep didn't suddenly turn into Benitez(example of different ideas). And? Does he have to , to prove what and to whom ?

And Bayern's positional play and how the players set themselves around the ball is different to Barcelona , not the same structure or movements. In the end , we can discuss all day about differences and similarities and we'll both be more or less right about our side of things .. the thing is , i said the core of his ideas is the same , and why should he be criticized for that as far as it is successful ?

As for the Bundesliga teams and the EPL teams you mention , ok , i am not willing to take this to league vs league , never did and won't start now for Bayern or Pep lol . I said my bit , now who's stronger , that changes constantly , both in comparison and in analogy. All i am going to say is , even if i take a step back and concede , your entire point is blunt ; that won't be showing "balls" by Pep .

SO , if he signs for let's say City , wouldn't it be the same thing , going by what you say? Wouldn't he face the same teams anyway ? What's so different with United , why would it show balls with United only? And even then , i find it strange you claim such a thing would be something Guardiola would be showing 'balls' by taking on . Others did it and others do it , it won't be any more of a challenge to Guardiola that it is for every other top coach. In the end , i do agree EPL has some serious competition , safe to say more competitive than Bundesliga , however to think that would mean Pep showed some balls by taking on with United.. i just don't share the same exact view ; it won't be more of a challenge than it is for all other top coaches .

I think it takes huge balls just to take jobs at Barcelona , Bayern and United , but not because of the competition , because of the pressure , expectations , sustaining and handling success. And Pep has proved he does have a pair really.

Why do you make it so complicated when it's so easy? Taking over United would show balls because he'd take over a team that isn't great by any stretch of imagination nor favourites to win anything and certainly not suited to pull off the type of football that he utilized so far in his coaching career with Barca and Bayern. Getting them to play great football and winning stuff would prove that he doesn't just win with stacked teams. Winning Bundesliga with Bayern proves nothing. 0. Jordi Roura can make them champions in Bundesliga and failing in the Champions League has no consequences because: "Hey, can't prepare to win the CL." Which isn't even wrong but basically he can't fail. So he needs to show balls and take over United. But I'm also fine with City. No Premier League team is truly stacked so I'm fine whichever EPL team he takes over. Although United would be a harder challenge than City obviously.

futbol wrote: The best in England but certainly not by a country mile like his weekly challenges with Bayern against the mighty Hannover and Co. So he'll actually have to show some real coaching skills.

Seriously now, what's this embarrassing bullshit.

Hannover are on the first relegation spot.

Let's play that game again

"not like the weekly challenges against the mighty Rayo "
"not like the weekly challenges against the mighty Norwich "

You're trying to tell me those teams would be tougher competition for a Pep team?

"Require coaching skills"? As in, Pep has no 'coaching skills'?

So that's your stance now? 'Pep Guardiola has no coaching skills'?

Apart from the fact this is obviously one of the stupidest things one could possibly write, why would a Barca fan talk like that about a club legend like Pep

Talking about balls. I still hold it against him that he chickened out the very moment Mourinho managed to turn Madrid into winners in 11/12 with that 100 point season and victory at Camp Nou. Just when things got interesting and Madrid looked their strongest in ages he chickened out and went to hiding in Bundesfodder. He needed to stay 1 more season to reclaim the throne. Then he could have gone. Unfortunately he showed lack of balls.

jibers wrote:

Rijkaard did well no doubt but once he lost Henk Ten Cate it went down hill because he was too passive, the man was like Ancelotti with no balls lol. The level Pep took Barcelona to is much higher than the level Rijkaard took the team to.

I do agree that some of the stuff Pep did with Barcelona has been falsely attributed to a 'Barcelona' playing style and some Barcelona fans no doubt have some sort of Pep hangover, but you cannot underestimate how he took Barcelona from 3rd to winning a treble and most of all, solving Messis injury crisis.

Shame not many here recognize the importance of Henk Ten Cate in Rijkaard's Barcelona .. when he left , to coach on his own because that's how much his work was accounted for , it wasn't the same for Rijkaard and Barcelona.

Hats off for knowing that Jibers. Though, not many see that today because Ten Cate was a scrub more or less as a head coach

In any case , the pair at Barcelona was doing some serious work at keeping the team competitive , Rijkaard clearly wasn't doing the same job when Ten Cate left .

I pretty much agree with what you said about Pep here and there in this thread , so i am not going to repeat any . Just point out that hindsight , about what Pep did , makes things easy for people. I remember when Pep was ostracizing Ronaldinho and Deco out the door , buying Pique a kid with what 1-2 appearances at United at the time ?! , signing Alves for right back , and other things no point repeating here .. yeah i don't remember any straightforward solutions everyone saw and just happened that Pep did it , or hype because of all that , but sure let's act the essence of what Pep did was some obvious important fixes here and there , because hindsight . His changes were met with mixed feelings , some with enthusiasm some with criticism , but nothing was obvious or whatever , or as simple as it's being made here.

Any other coach and Deco and Ronaldinho would probably still be there just by coach assurances next season and Alves would be playing bench right wing to Messi or something and that's assuming he had signed anyway , Pique who knows if he would even sign or stay on the bench becoming another Bartra e.t.c , but hindsight ftw , Pep found a ready team

Hapless_Hans wrote:

futbol wrote: The best in England but certainly not by a country mile like his weekly challenges with Bayern against the mighty Hannover and Co. So he'll actually have to show some real coaching skills.

Seriously now, what's this embarrassing bullshit.

Hannover are on the first relegation spot.

Let's play that game again

"not like the weekly challenges against the mighty Rayo "
"not like the weekly challenges against the mighty Norwich "

You're trying to tell me those teams would be tougher competition for a Pep team?

"Require coaching skills"? As in, Pep has no 'coaching skills'?

So that's your stance now? 'Pep Guardiola has no coaching skills'?

Apart from the fact this is obviously one of the stupidest things one could possibly write, why would a Barca fan talk like that about a club legend like Pep

Even mighty ManCity and Arsenal looked like schoolboys against Peps Bayern.

futbol wrote:Why do you make it so complicated when it's so easy? Taking over United would show balls because he'd take over a team that isn't great by any stretch of imagination nor favourites to win anything and certainly not suited to pull off the type of football that he utilized so far in his coaching career with Barca and Bayern. Getting them to play great football and winning stuff would prove that he doesn't just win with stacked teams. Winning Bundesliga with Bayern proves nothing. 0. Jordi Roura can make them champions in Bundesliga and failing in the Champions League has no consequences because: "Hey, can't prepare to win the CL." Which isn't even wrong but basically he can't fail. So he needs to show balls and take over United. But I'm also fine with City. No Premier League team is truly stacked so I'm fine whichever EPL team he takes over. Although United would be a harder challenge than City obviously.

i guess our views about Pep differ , hence why i don't think it's a challenge and you do. I have no doubt Pep will manage the same success with United as he did with Bayern , no matter how the team currently is.

Bayern wasn't fit for his football either , supposedly.. but that changed super fast . If Pep ever goes there , i personally do not expect anything less. Let alone reinforcements which surely would happen . And this goes for City too , so i am not making it complicated when i disagree with you , i just think Guardiola capable of making great teams , stacked or not.

Maybe i think a little too highly of him? Perhaps. But i am not making anything complicated by disagreeing . I think Pep would roflstomp with United in EPL , more or less. What this team is right now doesn't mean much , Bayern was the total opposite when he arrived(edit:i mean the way they played , didn't word it right) , didn't stop him.

Did they have more quality? No doubt. Will they have more quality as a team if Guardiola signs for them? Of course . I don't have doubts as to how successful he can be there , how United fairs right now doesn't mean much to me when we talk Pep taking over there. It didn't stop him with Barcelona in making them the best and didn't stop him with Bayern taking over from Heynckess and end of the season people talking about Pep's Bayern.

It's just how we rate Pep i guess , that's where i see less of a challenge and you see differently . It's ok .

Hapless_Hans wrote:

futbol wrote: The best in England but certainly not by a country mile like his weekly challenges with Bayern against the mighty Hannover and Co. So he'll actually have to show some real coaching skills.

Seriously now, what's this embarrassing bullshit.

Hannover are on the first relegation spot.

Let's play that game again

"not like the weekly challenges against the mighty Rayo "
"not like the weekly challenges against the mighty  Norwich "

You're trying to tell me those teams would be tougher competition for a Pep team?

"Require coaching skills"? As in, Pep has no 'coaching skills'?

So that's your stance now? 'Pep Guardiola has no coaching skills'?

Apart from the fact this is obviously one of the stupidest things one could possibly write, why would a Barca fan talk like that about a club legend like Pep

Is this a serious question? Of course playing against Norwich with Manchester United is a tougher challenge. The league itself is a tougher challenge. You don't win the EPL in October, unlike Bundesliga where bookies don't even take bets on Bayern.

Pep has coaching skills but no one knows how good they are. Because so far player quality can bail him out. Maybe he can play 2-1-3-2-1-1 with Bayern and it works against Bundesfodders due to sheer player quality. Maybe he'll try the same with Manchester United and he'll get rekt hard with a lesser team. Do we know that for sure that it won't happen? No. So he has to go and prove himself.

futbol wrote:
Is this a serious question? Of course playing against Norwich with Manchester United is a tougher challenge. The league itself is a tougher challenge.

Norwich are not a better team than Hannover.

So basically you're point is that Pep has it easy because the team HE IS COACHING is a far better team than one he is not coaching. Which somehow in your mind seems to be a minus point

He's got no balls because he's too good a coach to have to worry about losing to scrubs.
That's basically what your argument amounts to

Hapless_Hans wrote:

futbol wrote:
Is this a serious question? Of course playing against Norwich with Manchester United is a tougher challenge. The league itself is a tougher challenge.

Norwich are not a better team than Hannover.

So basically you're point is that Pep has it easy because the team HE IS COACHING is a far better team than one he is not coaching. Which somehow in your mind seems to be a minus point

He's got no balls because he's too good a coach to have to worry about losing to scrubs.
That's basically what your argument amounts to

Cuckbol strikes again.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

futbol wrote:
Is this a serious question? Of course playing against Norwich with Manchester United is a tougher challenge. The league itself is a tougher challenge.

Norwich are not a better team than Hannover.

So basically you're point is that Pep has it easy because the team HE IS COACHING is a far better team than one he is not coaching. Which somehow in your mind seems to be a minus point

Yes. Of course. Why was that so hard to understand?

It really is absolutely hilarious.

Basically what people are saying is "hmm I don't know we can't really rate Pep because his teams WIN EVERYTHING"

"It's hard to know the true quality of a coach WHEN HIS TEAM IS JUST TOO GOOD"

Hapless_Hans wrote:It really is absolutely hilarious.

Basically what people are saying is "hmm I don't know we can't really rate Pep because his teams WIN EVERYTHING"

"It's hard to know the true quality of a coach WHEN HIS TEAM IS JUST TOO GOOD"

Are you playing dumb now on purpose? The Bayern squad wins Bundesliga on quality alone even with Philipp Lahm assuming the playermanager role. That's the whole point. Not that Pep wins because he is so good which I'm supposedly criticising.

futbol wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:It really is absolutely hilarious.

Basically what people are saying is "hmm I don't know we can't really rate Pep because his teams WIN EVERYTHING"

"It's hard to know the true quality of a coach WHEN HIS TEAM IS JUST TOO GOOD"

Are you playing dumb now on purpose? The Bayern squad wins Bundesliga on quality alone even with Philipp Lahm assuming the playermanager role. That's the whole point, not that Pep wins because he is so good which I find critic-worthy.

It's you who is playing dumb, really.
Because you choose to ignore the importance of coaching and management against your better judgement, for some reason.

So tell me, what exactly is the difference between Man United and Bayern?
Is it money? Is it being able to walk the league at will?

Man United have the most expensive squad ever in PL history.
Depay was expensive as Costa. Schneiderlin wasn't much cheaper than Vidal. Not even going to mention Martial.
What I wonder is, is the difference why Utd buy Depay and Bayern Costa?
What do you think?

Man United won the league at will, more times than Bayern the Bundesliga, between the beginning of PL and 2013.
Since then it has changed.

You know what else has changed?
THEIR MANAGER QUIT.

Hapless_Hans wrote:So tell me, what exactly is the difference between Man United and Bayern?

Okay, so you're playing dumb. Gotcha.

Fuss masterfully trolling Hans .

farfan wrote:Fuss masterfully trolling Hans .

He's not trolling though...

I hope he is tbh

farfan wrote:Fuss masterfully trolling Hans .

Don't think he is trolling. Cant blame u though his reputation precedes him

What would I be trolling with? Winning Bundesliga with Bayern is now supposed to be a managerial achievement? When Pep announced he'd take a sabbatical after Barca I expected it to last 1 season, not 4. Can't wait til he's back in the management game next season in the EPL.

I think Chelsea getting a part time manager tells ud pep is off to London. shame really I used to like pep.

futbol wrote:What would I be trolling with? Winning Bundesliga with Bayern is now supposed to be a managerial achievement? When Pep announced he'd take a sabbatical after Barca I expected it to last 1 season, not 4. Can't wait til he's back in the management game next season in the EPL.

reported

According to ZDF, Pep Guardiola will leave Bayern next summer to manage Manchester City.

Yeah, and Ancelotti to Bayern, says ZDF.
Meh.