Pochettino, Özil, Navas, Shaw + PL strikers

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Post by Lord Awesome Mon May 25, 2015 11:36 pm

I'm sure the bottom teams are better than the bottom sides of Spain regardless of how their top teams play. We could even see it in their second division.

Either way, truth is PL's struggling in Europe is due more to their managers being inadequate. Man U are barely recovering from Fergie's departure, Pellegrini's not for Man City, Liverpool was dragged by Suarez and atm have no answer to his replacement, Wenger is as predictable as Guardiola whenever he faces a solid defensive side, and Mou was ousted by Blanc. Whenever the mentioned clubs will get their stuff together and if there are no changes to PL spending power we'll probably see the PL clubs perform in CL and this myth that PL is mediocre will be forgotten.

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Post by The Franchise Mon May 25, 2015 11:41 pm

MR BOND wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
MR BOND wrote:
chad4401 wrote:all i want to say is that there is a lot of space and time on the ball in epl, i don't know why some fans feel the need to overrate every aspect of the prem, just to wank to the mediocrity
I don't know the stats for a fact. but id be interested to see how the bottom clubs did against the top clubs in England. then see how the bottom clubs did against the top clubs in Italy. spain and Germany.

I dont know about Germany and Italy, but im sure that the bottom clubs in England do better than the Spanish. But thats because the best English teams are so far behind Madrid, Barca and maybe even Atletico.

that's a fair point. but I also think that the bottom clubs in England through being hard working and playing in your face football helps them compeat also I think the fact that in England the away teams get better support helps them out a bit.  

Perhaps. I think the lower La Liga teams are generally one way or the other, with no middle ground. Either they give the big guys a hell of a fight or they completely fold and play like they are fully aware of their inferiority.

In any event I think that the big 2 in Spain would do the exact same thing in any league. Atletico are a little different, I dont think they would do so well in England because their entire game plan to me centers on being so different to what La Liga is used to. They are surely the most "English" team you will find not in England.
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Post by The Franchise Mon May 25, 2015 11:44 pm

Lord Awesome wrote:I'm sure the bottom teams are better than the bottom sides of Spain regardless of how their top teams play. We could even see it in their second division.

Either way, truth is PL's struggling in Europe is due more to their managers being inadequate. Man U are barely recovering from Fergie's departure, Pellegrini's not for Man City, Liverpool was dragged by Suarez and atm have no answer to his replacement, Wenger is as predictable as Guardiola whenever he faces a solid defensive side, and Mou was ousted by Blanc. Whenever the mentioned clubs will get their stuff together and if there are no changes to PL spending power we'll probably see the PL clubs perform in CL and this myth that PL is mediocre will be forgotten.


Nah, dont agree. The English teams lack quality.

The best players are cast offs from Madrid and Barcelona, guys no longer needed.

English teams had their period of doing well in the CL by being defensively sound and difficult to beat, now they trying to play football more and failing. There is no myth, the best PL teams arent on the level of the truly best in Europe.
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Post by Unique Mon May 25, 2015 11:44 pm

Valkyrja wrote:
Adit wrote:Madrid destroys teams irrespective of league..Look at our champions league campaign for last two seasons (until Modric got inured) we destroys teams in CL too,you would know that as we shared a common group.

Di Maria and Ozil also plays much better in Real because face it they have significantly much better players to play with. In Arsenal Giroud is making run while in Madrid one of the best ever strikers is making runs...of course Ozil will play infinitely better.


I think that Ozil lacks motivation because he didn't really want to leave Madrid.
ozil don't lack motivation imo. he lacks the will to fight. players like ozil and di maria would rarther you have the ball and see what you can do. then we have the ball and see what we can do. they have bags of talent. but they can be bullyed out of the game.
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Post by Lord Awesome Mon May 25, 2015 11:51 pm

And just my 2 cents on Di Maria but I think it's Van Gaal who is behind Di Maria's lack of performing. It's also due to lack of adaption on Di Maria's part but that'll come when comes. Ozil is just not much of runner but I think his lack of creativity comes from being silenced by Cazorla is the protagonist in creation overall. And Cazorla actually has Stamina so he's been a much better option for that that Ozil.
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Post by Unique Tue May 26, 2015 12:18 am

Lord Awesome wrote:And just my 2 cents on Di Maria but I think it's Van Gaal who is behind Di Maria's lack of performing. It's also due to lack of adaption on Di Maria's part but that'll come when comes. Ozil is just not much of runner but I think his lack of creativity comes from being silenced by Cazorla is the protagonist in creation overall. And Cazorla actually has Stamina so he's been a much better option for that that Ozil.
di maria seems like a player that if you put one on him in the first 5 mins. he don't fancy it after that.
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Post by rwo power Tue May 26, 2015 1:16 am

The Franchise wrote:I dont know about Germany and Italy, but im sure that the bottom clubs in England do better than the Spanish. But thats because the best English teams are so far behind Madrid, Barca and maybe even Atletico.
We have 1. Bayern, 2. Wolfsburg, 3. Gladbach, 16. HSV, 17. Freiburg and 18. Paderborn. These were the results for 2014/15:

Bayern 8:0 HSV / HSV 0:0 Bayern
Bayern 2:0 Freiburg / Freiburg 2:1 Bayern
Bayern 4:0 Paderborn / Paderborn 0:6 Bayern
Wolfsburg 2:0 HSV / HSV 0:2 Wolfsburg
Wolfsburg 3:0 Freiburg / Freiburg 1:2 Wolfsburg
Wolfsburg 1:1 Paderborn / Paderborn 1:3 Wolfsburg
Gladbach 1:0 HSV / HSV 1:1 Gladbach
Gladbach 1:0 Freiburg / Freiburg 0:0 Gladbach
Gladbach 2:0 Paderborn / Paderborn 1:2 Gladbach

(Paderborn were considered relegation material ever since their promotion as they simply don't have the money to properly mess with the other BL teams. The market value of their whole 28 player squad is 28.5 mio Euros altogether and they had a budget for the whole season 2014/15 of 15 mio Euros for wages and transfer fees put together.)
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Post by RealGunner Tue May 26, 2015 1:50 am

Ozil a flop.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/hah.gif

Art probably thinks Kevin Nolan had a better season than Ozil

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Post by Unique Tue May 26, 2015 1:59 am

RealGunner wrote:Ozil a flop.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/hah.gif

Art probably thinks Kevin Nolan had a better season than Ozil

I wouldent say ozil is a flop. but I think he finds the prem lge hard going.
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Post by Kick Tue May 26, 2015 2:51 am

RealGunner wrote:Ozil a flop.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/hah.gif

Art probably thinks Kevin Nolan had a better season than Ozil



Bro, Ozil had less goals and assists this season than Torres did last season with us.

#flop

Spoiler:
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Post by Art Morte Tue May 26, 2015 6:38 am

Well, I wanted to pick things you could have arguments both for and against :coffee:

For me, Pochettino hasn't shown to be any better than his predecessors. Kane 21 goals, Chadli 11 goals, Eriksen 10 goals, I feel all those individuals succeeded to perform very nearly to the top of their potential. I don't think they will have that many goals between them next season and Pochettino will have to find other solutions - but I don't think he can.

Özil plays well. But does he play as well as you'd expect? A £40m world-class signing in his prime. For me, he doesn't play as well as he should and therefore has flopped. His goals and assists stats are just one indicator of that.

Navas, well he's just not good enough, I think most seem to agree on that.

As for Shaw, Man United fans seem to insist he's been everything they expected him to be. No, I haven't seen ManU play as much as they have, but the few times I have seen Shaw playing this season, he's done nothing noteworthy. £30m is a little steep to pay for average, no-nonsense performances, I don't know.

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Post by Kick Tue May 26, 2015 6:41 am

Navas is a straight up scrub.
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Post by Art Morte Tue May 26, 2015 6:48 am

And RG, please, I've called Kevin Nolan a past-it scrub for a long time by now and the weakest link in West Ham's XI. Big Sam's worse decision at the club was to keep on starting him. Now, James Milner on the other hand...
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Post by free_cat Tue May 26, 2015 11:13 am

I'm not sure players have more time on the ball in the PL than in Spain.

I would say it depends on the team you are facing, if they are a relentless pressing team like Athletic Bilbao, Valencia, Atletico (when they press) or Rayo Vallecaon, you will get less time on the ball than in England. However, if you are facing Espanyol, Llevant or others, you will have more time on the ball.

On the other hand, IMO what you will definitely have in the PL is more SPACE. That's because teams in England tend to play less compact than teams in Spain. Spanish teams try to play very compact, wether they press or seet deeper, while in the PL IMO there's more space between the lines, and between the players, so players who thrive with space can do better.

That's my two cents, though it's hard to say it's the truth, because at the end of the day we would need someone to pick a sample of games from La Liga and PL and mesure the time a player gets on the ball before he is pressed in different areas of the pitch, and also the space between players of the same team while defending, and we would know the truth. If someone is doing a final thesis in a sports graduate, there's a nice topic for you.
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Post by CBarca Tue May 26, 2015 5:47 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:difference to AVB is, he didn't completely embarrass himself in big games though.. smashed Chelsea in a fantastic win and even won a derby against Arsenal iirc.

That alone is an upgrade on AVB. Let's not talk about Tim Sherwood lol.


I support Poch and he deserves a second season, and this is one of the things I've been happy to see this season from Spurs. However, it must be noted that all the big teams, for most of the year, were absolutely dire this year. I am still happy to see the showing on the big stage, but it's not at all very unexpected considering the big teams this season have been less than impressive.

There are certain things that need fixing-- a consistent lineup of Chadli-Eriksen-Lamela, pls. A more consistent pressing system, a team that can hold onto the ball better, especially in advanced areas. However this is why Poch needs a second season. He has worked on these things, but hasn't gotten there yet. Patience is needed.

Spurs NEED to get a good CM and likely a new left back and (depending on Walker) new right back as well. Tbh Spurs could probably use two new CM's, such is the lack of talent in the area.

Dembele-Mason for a team aspiring for top 4? Bentaleb-Dembele? It's not nearly good enough.

The team needs improvement. The better question is not whether Poch will get the sack, it's whether Tottenham will spend any money this off season.
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Post by The Franchise Wed May 27, 2015 12:25 am

If I could I would kudos Free_Cat's post, he said that very well and I agree. And I also agree about the thesis, wish I could do Uni all over again now im not a complete idiot and do something more interesting.

As for the topic of the OP. Is it just me who is uncomfortable declaring first year players flops? Cant guys get a couple seasons at least? I mean, not everyone needs it but is it really normal that a player comes and hits the ground running, especially in teams going through turmoil like many of the players named are?
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Post by Robespierre Wed May 27, 2015 11:00 am

Hapless_Hans wrote:difference to AVB is, he didn't completely embarrass himself in big games though.. smashed Chelsea in a fantastic win and even won a derby against Arsenal iirc.

That alone is an upgrade on AVB. Let's not talk about Tim Sherwood lol.


Chelsea match was relevant , yes.
but also AVB won against Arsenal tbh
Pochettino had to fight for CL place , but he wasn't even close to do it.
Even Liverpool didi it , then it collapsed in last 2 months.

The 5th place is deceptive because Spurs were for the whole league closest to 7th place than 4th . For this reason I say I didn't  notice an upgrade than AVB

Anyway in this EPL there were more the  flops than relevations or the relevant things ( anyway one was Kane ... not any one ) . It was even the EPL where  Di Maria and Falcao  flopped.
Too many players and team have disappointed and are been under performed , for this reason it was an ugly Premier League.
Manchester City ( I don't get the reason why Pellegrini should be confirmed tbh ) , United could do better also considering their transfermarkt wasn't effective , Liverpool same thing , Everton was crap   ,  Tottenham already said.
I think EPL can go back at old levels because tbh it will be difficult get wrong so much as this year. Laughing
It depends much on market and most teams were bad about it  .. I mean .. I remind Hull City was rated as one of most brillaint teams (top 3 etc considering also their appeal,budget ... They had  many praises ) to move on market this summer .. . and then they are relegated Laughing
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:17 am

Interesting thread to revisit. So what's Art's record?

Pochettino: Undefeated in the past 10 matches with a Spurs that is looking mentally strong for possibly the first time in history. This might change today, but so far Art's veredict is: WRONG

Ozil: Having his best season for Arsenal yet and some people consider him the MVP of the season so far. Veredict: WRONG

Navas: Still getting plenty of playing time but I think everyone agrees on this. Veredict: Correct

Shaw: Jury's still out on this one.

1/4
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Post by M99 Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:30 am

Until his injury the verdict on Shaw seemed to be wrong too. He was one of United's best players and was probably the best performing LB of the league.
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Post by AnJl Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:26 am

M99 wrote:Until his injury the verdict on Shaw seemed to be wrong too. He was one of United's best players and was probably the best performing LB of the league.


Nope, that goes to Monreal
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Post by B-Mac Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:57 pm

Jury is still out on Shaw only if you don't watch Shaw, he was beasting, and is the reason Memphis form went to shit the moment he was injured
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Post by Art Morte Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:22 pm

I'm not sure should I be happy or mad at Alfred for bumping this x)

Pochettino is showing the most promise yet, but we'll see which way their season goes. It's been OK so far, now he needs to push it over to the good side. But he has given himself and the team the best chance yet to do that, so fair play to him so far.

Özil. I still don't rate him as high as most seem to do, but he, too, is having his best London season yet, so fair play to him as well.

Navas is Navas.

Shaw, have to admit he looked good before his injury - but the jury's still out, imo.
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