Discussing Ultras, Hooligans, and the Evils of Football.

Roma Ultras sunk to a new low.

By brandishing a banner deriding the mother of a dead Napoli fan, they moved their attack to something beyond the football field. Eventually, their own president was disgusted by such actions. Being American, he was not familiar with such aspects in sporting culture.

Beyond Roma's case, Ultras have tremendous power in Italy, and in some other countries (mainly Slavic and Balkan countries). In an ideal sense, a football club belongs to its fans, but these Ultras wants that ownership to be true.

In the past, English Hooligans held similar sway over English football clubs, and we rarely see that today. In Italy, unlike in England, Stadiums aren't safe havens for families to go to, and battles between the fans are rare but too frequent events.

Does the extra color Ultras generate to the game merit the baggage that comes with it?

Does the extra color Ultras generate to the game merit the baggage that comes with it?

Definitely not.

I once saw a documentary on English Hooliganism, there's even a movie. And IN A WAY it's cool to see that the thing we love has a sort of history that involves bad times as well, much like some empires or countries of the world's history. In a way it brings a more rounded and relatable sense of idea to the sport, basically saying that it is very similar to life. And it also shows the sport has overcome some major troubles, adding some extra points.

But that's from the point of view of looking at the history. Looking at it from an in the moment pov there is nothing favourable about such acts. Strecthing to people losing their lives which is the worst possible thing.

Lord Spencer wrote:Does the extra color Ultras generate to the game merit the baggage that comes with it?

No. Never in a trillion, zillion years.

Does the extra color Ultras generate to the game merit the baggage that comes with it?

Simple answer: no.

I'll stop short at saying that all ultras should be eradicated from the game, but there's a fine line between being a fan and showing stout support for a club and being completely fanatical and tribal. In most cases, the latter reflects poorly on the clubs.

Fan safety should be priority for all clubs, and if there are fans or groups of fans compromising that safety, then they need to be removed. Roma should be able welcome Feyenoord fans without having an area near the stadium destroyed; Arsenal should be able to have Galatasaray fans in the stadium without flares being thrown onto the pitch; fans should be able to travel to Rome or Naples without getting stabbed.

Beat me to it, Spence.

Was going to say that James Pallotta's response and his courage to stand up to the ultras on this is exactly what I expect of him. Our ultras have been an absolute disgrace and Uncle Jimmy was right to not appeal that curva ban.

As it's now turned out, Ciro Esposito's mother has been doing the polar opposite to profiting off of her son's death, donating all proceeds of her book towards awareness and charity for single mothers and their families. That shows how ignorant these ultras are. Pallotta has come out fully supporting this and has invested $1 million of his own money into Roma Cares, our own charity foundation.

Furthermore, the ultras abuse of our players was even more disgraceful. There's a reason why it took us nearly 4 months to record a win at home. The Curva Sud can be incredibly intimidating if you're a Roma player and your side is out of form.

these morons should be banned from entering stadiums, simple as that .

Football would be nothing without Ultras, it's better if they cause some trouble here and there than just sitting their asses whole game in a library-like atmosphere.
Even my local ultras group from 3rd league makes a better atmosphere than majority of English PL clubs.
PS. Yes, I'm from Balkan (Serbia) and ultras/hooligans have big influence here but that's the way I like it and it should stay that way.

football would still be football without these morons , just look at the two best leagues in the world ( EPL and liga ) .

most people just care about football and not flares and silly chants .

In Germany, the president of Hannover 96 got into such a clash with the ultra groups that these decided in a huff to cease supporting the main team and now they instead support the U23 team. This lead to a more or less graveyard mood during Hannover's home matches and so far there is no end in sight.

H96 Ultras at a U23 match:

Spoiler:

Here's a report in German at Sport1: "Hannover 96 - Without ultras, things don't work out anymore. No support, no points."
http://www.t-online.de/sport/fussball/bundesliga/id_72924408/hannover-96-ohne-ultras-laeuft-s-nicht-rund-weder-stimmung-noch-punkte.html

Ultras: sing they will always stand with the players regardless of the result, insult players right after they lose, get someone killed in the stands for having a different sporting preference, are a front for money laundering and drugs trafficking, boycott the clubs they supposedly love for taking actions against them.

They need to be banned. Fan identification, high quality cameras in crowds to identify work going doers, jail time for threats, throwing stuff at players and racially abusing players, refs and fans.

In Argentina we no longer have away fans because they are so bad.

they also ruin the live experience for others .

i suspect the reason stadiums are always half empty in serie A is because these idiots make the environment not very family friendly like it's the case in england and spain .

While SGs do bring good atmosphere to games, I really hate the culture. It's like the drama of a college fraternity mixed with a bad episode of glee. There's so many rules and idiocy that come with them. The American ultras and other MLS team supports groups have brought a lot of garbage into American sports that were completely non-existent in American sports before hand. The trend was you just show up, cheer on your team, go home. But supporters groups bring all these stupid rules of where to sit, expect you to contribute or learn their songs or w/e. It's ridiculous. And like frats, you just get a lot of idiocy and bogus causes and philosophies spewing out of them. Thankfully for the most part politics haven't really gotten involved yet.. But I'm afraid of when they do, as I can not think of a more ridiculous concept than politics being injected into football

VendettaRed07 wrote:While SGs do bring good atmosphere to games, I really hate the culture. It's like the drama of a college fraternity mixed with a bad episode of glee. There's so many rules and idiocy that come with them. The American ultras and other MLS team supports groups have brought a lot of garbage into American sports that were completely non-existent in American sports before hand. The trend was you just show up, cheer on your team, go home. But supporters groups bring all these stupid rules of where to sit, expect you to contribute or learn their songs or w/e. It's ridiculous. And like frats, you just get a lot of idiocy and bogus causes and philosophies spewing out of them. Thankfully for the most part politics haven't really gotten involved yet.. But I'm afraid of when they do, as I can not think of a more ridiculous concept than politics being injected into football

Politics were in fact part of football Ultras before, with the Roma and Lazio groups showing two poles of Italian politics in the past.

It is much more quite now, but Lazio are called Nazio for a reason.

I read some commonplace tbh

Firstly I think this "demonization" towards ultras ( as if all ultras are criminals, as if " just in Italy " there are bad  ultras ..) has been harmful towards Italian football because FIGC and federal bodies have managed very badly the situation.
Trying to copy an English model not applicable to Italian context.
In last 10 years we have seen thousand decrees of renstriction against the fans ( and Not , the football is not the theater. A football match without heath fans is not same thing ) who have resolved nothing, they have simply turned away fans from stadium , because it is became so boring to buy a ticket, because you must do even the useless " tessera del tifoso " who exists just in Italy, because you must pray to take a drum at stadium ... you can do nothing now , you can't even going to watch your team away becuse it is often proibithed to go for away game of your team.

So as to reduce the risks of violence the FIGC has proibithed to fans away games . It can happen I haven't the right to watch my team at stadium away even if I am not previous offender.

Well, it is as closing the banks so as to avoid the risk  of robberies. I don't think it is a good solution anyway.

Say me another coutnry where it happens . We Italian fans are already enough persecuted

because yes .... Italian ultras... Italy...

"  and battles between the fans are rare but too frequent events. " --- maybe in 80s years.
TBH this is a commonplace.
In Italy battles between the fans at stadiums are rare events, if they happen these happens away stadium, never in...
And do you think in England aren't there hooligans to fight in subways ? It happens STILL, but it happens away stadium and so these battles aren't cataloged as inherent to football.

Same in Italy. For example that Napoli-Fiorentina happens in Rome, but not  at stadium.

The situation in Italy is not different than other countries.
I think other countries are even worse because there is less rigidity.

Atlertico - Deportivo suggest me Spain isn't so different, although I tihnk Spanish federation won't generalize as FIGC and so it won't decide to punish all the Spanish fans . Good for them.

So I don't rrealize why Farfan sees some difference. Spanish ultras even accused because of racism..

And why does anyone never talk about Germany ?

When a German club relegates in second division , their ultras cause the World War.

Hertha Berlino ultras , Koln ultras etc caused pandemonium when  their team relegated.

Basically their ultras are very active, also because they haven't the Italian repression , German ultras wrote banner " Speziale libero " (translated Free Speziale. Speziale is the Italian ultras who killed a policemen 8 years ago . A banner 10 times worse than this , but noone says it )

I don't remind similar devastation in Italy when an Italian club is relegated in these years.

So, is there an Italian problem why Roma ultras wrote a banner enough disgusting r?

I need to say, that I am discussing all Ultras, but I am focusing on Italian Ultras because that is what I know most off.

In Switzerland, the FC Zürich ultras currently wage war against the club as the bosses dared to depose Nr.1 goalie David Da Costa who is said to be a (former?) member of one of the most fanatical ultra groups there:

http://www.20min.ch/sport/dossier/superleague/story/13764491

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/zuerich/story/Kampf-um-Da-Costa-zwischen-Fans-und-Verein-22028653

I agree with most of the sentiment here. But I will say my experience has shown that not every group of ultra's are a negative. That surely isnt a surpirse and my evidence is purely from my one time point of view but none the less, probably worth sharing.

I sat in the same seating section as the Porto ultra's. Got cheap tickets from a friend and we went, sat there and had a fantastic time.

Awful position to watch the game because of the constantly standing up, huge flag waving and general controlled carnage but it was a great time and there was almost no trouble.

There was I guess to be the leader of the group, who had a megaphone and orchestrated the chants. At some point someone threw a flare on the pitch and this leader went ballistic at the section within the ultra section which the flare came from and nobody threw anything again.

The point of this small story obviously is not to say that this proves  anything about ultras in general. Only that I wouldnt agree with the premise of "all ultras should be banned, everywhere and forever".

Frankly I am nostalgic of the old Italian curvas, with heat, , cheer, banners. Now the repression actuated in last 10 years  depased everything . the current German curvas look like the old Italian curvas,  and well , it is no coincidence that their stadiums are the most boisterous than all  and we all pay tribute to the German stadiums when we Italians allowed to debase ours ... lol
never been afraid to go to at stadium tbh,  I think the risk is limited to some matches , it is not a general problem , and I don't go at Roma for derby , for Roma-Napoli (though anyway ..., RIP Esposito okay  ... but tbf he wasn't going to the grocery store when he was killed.... If you go at Roma simply with the idea to watch the match , I don't think you risk the life.) or Catania-Palermo. I've watched Inter everywhere, it was as a picnic  .. for this reason the violence is basically overrated as concept .

The top of violence at stadiums was reached in 70's ,  in 70's Italy  was in a sort of undeclared civil war with young ppl of opposing political factions to fight  each other daily at squares  and so  there was a climate of generalized violence to rebound on stadiums .  
This AS Roma site testifies some things happen in 70s

Spoiler:

at that time there was not even the " daspo" , so you couldn't even risk to be banned .
Now it has simply a    great media impact  because you can know everthing happening in just a minute , but I don't get some ultras degeneration.

I don't  have personally a position so radical because I recognize positive things to ultras movement so as I 've idea there are idiots.  
In my life for everything I dont' like to  make a bundle of grass , and I can't accept the fact a State is unable to punish the guilties and so it damages the community... probably a solution might be to stretch the ban to banned ultras, but I don't get why all the ultras should pay for a minority.
Surely there is the example of England ( changed completely in 20 years)  to tempt towards  a zero tolerance
 , but not all  the models are applicable in other realities because we are different tbf( hooligans is also a bit different than being ultras but this is another story) we are different cultures  and the Latin will be never as the English , and it should be accepted. We 've tried to copy superficially an English model and when you try to copy something that doesn't belong you you get awful hybrid.
And personally when I hear the the shallow sentence " we must take Margaret Tatcher as example "  the shiver run  down my spine ......

Atmosphere adds a lot to the game. In Britain there isn't many kicking about but the ones that do exist aren't remotely violent. We have the biggest and best ultra group in Britain and then it's probably Crystal Palace. I really don't think football would be the same without the atmosphere generated by some of these groups. So many stadiums in England are like libraries.

Lord Spencer wrote:Does the extra color Ultras generate to the game merit the baggage that comes with it?

Absolutely not.

The only thing Ultra's have done is give a bad name for Football fans in general. Showing support to a club is all well and good but showing any sort of hostility or negativity to a another group or a person is mere provocation. They almost make me ashamed to be a Football fan. I mean, it's nice to see those creative pro club banners and such but I guess not everything can be all nice & fair all of the time. The sad part is that it's unavoidable and this sort of thing is not going to be eradicated entirely. Best thing Football can do is limit it.

Exactly after this thread, Cagliari ultras broke into the Cagliari training retreat, threatening and even attacking players and staff.

and Varese-Avellino (Serie B ) will be postoponed because their  devastated the stadium ( banners and graffiti protesting against Varese, while benches were demolished, areas of the pitch dug up and even sections of the goalposts sawed in half.)

I still believe we must  not   make a bundle of grass , but some ultras  engage really to change this idea

The Franchise wrote:I agree with most of the sentiment here. But I will say my experience has shown that not every group of ultra's are a negative. That surely isnt a surpirse and my evidence is purely from my one time point of view but none the less, probably worth sharing.

I sat in the same seating section as the Porto ultra's. Got cheap tickets from a friend and we went, sat there and had a fantastic time.

Awful position to watch the game because of the constantly standing up, huge flag waving and general controlled carnage but it was a great time and there was almost no trouble.

There was I guess to be the leader of the group, who had a megaphone and orchestrated the chants. At some point someone threw a flare on the pitch and this leader went ballistic at the section within the ultra section which the flare came from and nobody threw anything again.

The point of this small story obviously is not to say that this proves  anything about ultras in general. Only that I wouldnt agree with the premise of "all ultras should be banned, everywhere and forever".

The problem is that in many countries the ultras are a front for something else. I have no idea how it is in Portugal, but in Argentina ultras are involved in drug trafficking, murders & shady acts for politicians. You can be a fan and do everything you described in that post, and that would be perfectly fine, but you become an ultra (in my opinion) when you start engaging in more than the football world or when you turn violent. I have no problem whatsoever with vocal normal fans.