Transfer Rumours V6

That is just one simple static picture with no reflection on the complicated decisions they would have to make.

Even in that picture there I can see a potential issue and I have no idea how that play turns out in reality. If the ball is played inside to Modric, Iniesta has to decide to pressure him or stay with Cristiano. If he stays, Modric has time on the ball to choose a pass, our defence line has to go back or a ball over the top to Bale is a real possibility. If the defence line fails its a 1 v 1, if it suceeds than it means more time without the ball.
If Iniesta is late to come out then Modric can play directly to Cristiano between the lines, the place you least want the ball other than your net. If Iniesta stays where he is (probably the best choice) untill Mascherano shuffles back across then Neymar has to make a decision, to block the angle of the pass to Bale. Can he do that? Does he understand how to position himself defensively to stop that? If he does, then the ball goes out to the right back, Neymar closes him down and our midfield have to shuffle across all over again. This is if we defend well mind you. And all this defending has to be done over and over again, one bad decision of when to move to or from a position and its a potential goal.

And this if with the assumption they are already in the correct position. Rakitic in attack rarely gets ahead of the ball, he can get back into position easily and do the defensive process. What about Reus? Reus will get ahead of the ball, Reus will dribble into the box, he will try and make a difference...which means he often wont be in this position before the ball is transitioned. And Rakitic is a defensively astute player, he understands how to position himself and makes good defensive choices, what about Reus? Reus may try hard, but trying hard will never make up for a bad decision. I see this all the time when Suarez is defending the right flank, he tries hard but he doesnt always understand how to position himself to stop the passes the opponants wants to make...forwards very rarely do.

Hmm. 4-2-3-1 is a bread and butter formation. Is it far fetched to say 9 out of 10 teams defend with 2 lines of 4 with 2 midfielders in the middle and 2 wide players protecting the flanks? Neymar and Reus defending their respective flanks and tracking fullbacks isn't unfamiliar defensive movement for them that requires any sort of complicated decision making. Obviously you can't assume Reus would be in the box when the ball is turned over and too far away from the opposite leftback. The attacking dynamics would change in such a formation compared to the current Barca. Reus would play more as a winger / wide midfielder compared to Messi's "RW" role right now who has total freedom to come inside and get into the box all the time. I'm really surprised you see an issue in this. If at all the current Barca is more problematic with Messi's free role where Rakitic has to keep an eye on the right flank at all times. Bayern won the treble with the suggested formation. Ribery and Robben on the wings, Schweinsteiger and Martinez in the middle, Müller and Mandzukic/Gomez upfront. As I already said, the problem for me would be Busquets' and Verratti's (who was suggested) individual defensive qualities, not the formation.

Fußball wrote:Hmm. 4-2-3-1 is a bread and butter formation. Is it far fetched to say 9 out of 10 teams defend with 2 lines of 4 with 2 midfielders in the middle and 2 wide players protecting the flanks? Neymar and Reus defending their respective flanks and tracking fullbacks isn't unfamiliar defensive movement for them that requires any sort of complicated decision making. Obviously you can't assume Reus would be in the box when the ball is turned over and too far away from the opposite leftback. The attacking dynamics would change in such a formation compared to the current Barca. Reus would play more as a winger / wide midfielder compared to Messi's "RW" role right now who has total freedom to come inside and get into the box all the time. I'm really surprised you see an issue in this. If at all the current Barca is more problematic with Messi's free role where Rakitic has to keep an eye on the right flank at all times. Bayern won the treble with the suggested formation. Ribery and Robben on the wings, Schweinsteiger and Martinez in the middle, Müller and Mandzukic/Gomez upfront. As I already said, the problem for me would be Busquets' and Verratti's (who was suggested) individual defensive qualities, not the formation.

Thank you, sir. I'd decided to give up football after reading the post above yours. I mean why complicate it so much. If I may add, there are more merits with moving messi behind the striker as it allows him an optimum field of view, thus easier to release runners in to space (he has no peer in that dept). It actually worked wonders under Sabella, until the 2 manning the defense failed to supply Messi as often, or in good positions due to their own technical deficiency (lack of ball retention under pressure, poor distribution, control). A midfield 2 of Busi-Verratti offers greater retention, circulation and quicker transitional play), meaning Messi should see more of the ball. I would say they are not any more unphysical and lightweight than Modric/Kroos tandem, and I rate the former duo higher.
I mean going by some of the opinions about Reus, I wonder if they've really followed the player. His work rate, pressing is top class, his spatial awareness, finishing, and play on the run is better than Neymar's. He's also a creative source for his team, and can play in more than one position. He'd be an asset to any team whatever the name..
And that ladies and gents, would be my closing comments on this discussion.

Yeah, really complicated

Its basic football and tactics, EVERY team does.

You think just because you tell the guys "boys, we are playing 4231 remember that yeah? Its not 424" that they will magically defend?

Im sorry to sound so arrogant but im telling you something because I know it, coaches care about these things.


Its not just about tracking fullbacks. Again I have to sound arrogant, but thats amateur thinking. Maybe in a 433 you can tell wingers to track fullbacks and get away with it, but in a 442/4411/4231 (all the same shit) the wingers have a very different role.

There is only two in the center the wingers have to support them permanently, regardless of what the fullbacks do. I wont post videos you wont even watch, but im telling you basic things here. Just look at every team that play with a 44-something, the midfield 4 stay together on a string like they are a defensive line and act with the same responsibility. Its only the teams who have 3 (or 5 in reality) where the wingers are more free of defensive responsibility and even then, some coaches wont give it.

Comparing it to Bayern and Argentina like you two have only further prove my point to be honest. Compare their wide players defensive abilities to that of Neymar or Reus and you see a big difference.

Robben and Ribery ran more in their life than they ever did before to make that system work. They both defended better than either of Neymar of Reus ever dreamed of. And should I mention they had Muller playing the 10? You think Messi would work even half as hard as him? Where is he in your picture up there? Nowhere to be seen.

Argentina midfield couldnt be further away from what your suggesting if you tried. They played Enzo Perez and Lavezzi (Di Maria at other times) as their wingers...the main thing both are known for are hard work and defending. Lavezzi plays the same role for PSG and Enzo used to be a centermid who replaced Ramires for Benfica. And you think Neymar and Reus will work like they do?

Still sounds like you are overthinking it. First of all in 90 % of the games Barca plays during the course of the season, basically every game bar the La Liga top 5 and CL knockout rounds, the wingers wouldn't have to defend for their lives like prime Pedro. The opposition will be pinned back into their own half and try to boot the ball upfield, normal pressing will do the job based on talent level alone. And the moment Barca plays the top dogs it shouldn't be an impossible task to up the workrate to the necessary levels. Why exactly couldn't Reus do what Robben does? The former grew up running his ass off under Favre and Klopp, the latter was a primadonna up until Heynckes made him run. I mean Real Madrid basically plays this system with Ronaldo and Bale on the flanks and to top it all off without a designated defensive midfielder. Now don't tell me it's James who holds it all together.

This wouldn't work:


But this does?


I still don't understand your heavy protest against the suggestion unless what you're telling is that Reus and Neymar are super lazy gits and that's why it could never work. Please make this clear to me. You're against the formation or you think Neymar and Reus aren't suited to it?

You'll never get anyone as disciplined as Schweignsteiger and Martinez to go alongside Busquets.

Not sure why you want to break something which clearly isn't broken to begin with, you need to overhaul the midfield and replace Alves. That's about it nobody has superstars forwards coming off the bench.

Fußball wrote:Still sounds like you are overthinking it. First of all in 90 % of the games Barca plays during the course of the season, basically every game bar the La Liga top 5 and CL knockout rounds, the wingers wouldn't have to defend for their lives like prime Pedro. The opposition will be pinned back into their own half and try to boot the ball upfield, normal pressing will do the job based on talent level alone. And the moment Barca plays the top dogs it shouldn't be an impossible task to up the workrate to the necessary levels. Why exactly couldn't Reus do what Robben does? The former grew up running his ass off under Favre and Klopp, the latter was a primadonna up until Heynckes made him run. I mean Real Madrid basically plays this system with Ronaldo and Bale on the flanks and to top it all off without a designated defensive midfielder. Now don't tell me it's James who holds it all together.

This wouldn't work:

Suarez
Neymar Messi Reus
appropriate_CDM appropriate_CDM
-defense-
GK

But this does?

Mandzukic
Ribery Müller Robben
Schweinsteiger Martinez
-defense-
GK

I still don't understand your heavy protest against the suggestion unless what you're telling is that Reus and Neymar are super lazy gits and that's why it could never work. Please make this clear to me. You're against the formation or you think Neymar and Reus aren't suited to it?

I don't remember 2012-13 Robben very well, maybe because he didn't play that much, but Ribery really acted like a second LB that season. I remember a match in CL in which he recovered around 5-6 balls in Bayern's box. But, I think that might work. Reus and Suarez have very high work-rate, and Neymar is also decent. The problem is Messi, which will never be the workhorse that Muller is. But that Schweini-Javi pivot should also be taken into consideration. They were tireless that season.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:You'll never get anyone as disciplined as Schweignsteiger and Martinez to go alongside Busquets.

Not sure why you want to break something which clearly isn't broken to begin with, you need to overhaul the midfield and replace Alves. That's about it nobody has superstars forwards coming off the bench.

I don't. It was just an idea by À bout de souffle to get Reus. To which Franchise responded if Reus was going to be on the bench and she replied that they could play all together (Messi+Suarez+Neymar+Reus). Since then we're discussing if a 4-2-3-1 formation can work or not.

Guys.

Reus could've left for cheap after this season, without BVB having a say and him having the pick of all clubs.
He instead extended. Ever thought that maybe he likes it at Dortmund?

I personally don't think it can due to the personnel it's not just about the midfield or front 4 either. Would you really trust Alba and Alves in a 4231?

I'm with Mole, I don't really get why people talk about superstar forwards any more, when the middfield/defense is a much clearer issue.

For forwards I'd say we're all set with MSN, Pedro and calling back the loanees. If we get a good offer for Pedro I'd be fine replacing him with a rotation player, which Reus is not.

What we need to focus on is CM and RB. Not that we can sign anyone, anyway

Who to sign for the RB position though?

That's gonna be the tricky part.

Vicious Culé wrote:Who to sign for the RB position though?

That's gonna be the tricky part.

Do what you always do in the dark times..... raid Arsenal

Bellerin

Alves lifetime contract. VAGI

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

Vicious Culé wrote:Who to sign for the RB position though?

That's gonna be the tricky part.

Do what you always do in the dark times..... raid Arsenal

Arsenal signings rarely turn out well for us lmao. And I don't really want us to pay for their 4th place finish as usual.

Although Bellerin seem to be a good prospect. Not sure whether he'll be good enough to start in a year's time though.

And the way he left the club left a bad taste in my mouth. Not a bad decision in hindsight though, considering the mess the academy is right now.

Fußball wrote:Still sounds like you are overthinking it. First of all in 90 % of the games Barca plays during the course of the season, basically every game bar the La Liga top 5 and CL knockout rounds, the wingers wouldn't have to defend for their lives like prime Pedro. The opposition will be pinned back into their own half and try to boot the ball upfield, normal pressing will do the job based on talent level alone. And the moment Barca plays the top dogs it shouldn't be an impossible task to up the workrate to the necessary levels. Why exactly couldn't Reus do what Robben does? The former grew up running his ass off under Favre and Klopp, the latter was a primadonna up until Heynckes made him run. I mean Real Madrid basically plays this system with Ronaldo and Bale on the flanks and to top it all off without a designated defensive midfielder. Now don't tell me it's James who holds it all together.

This wouldn't work:

Suarez
Neymar Messi Reus
appropriate_CDM appropriate_CDM
-defense-
GK

But this does?

Mandzukic
Ribery Müller Robben
Schweinsteiger Martinez
-defense-
GK

I still don't understand your heavy protest against the suggestion unless what you're telling is that Reus and Neymar are super lazy gits and that's why it could never work. Please make this clear to me. You're against the formation or you think Neymar and Reus aren't suited to it?

You said I was over thinking it too with this Neymar, Suarez and Messi trident and we see in every Madrid game what happens, Marcelo having game after game looking like some hybrid of Roberto Carlos and Pele.

I said nothing about the fodder La liga games, I specifically was talking about the big games against the toughest opponents. That's why I said I doubt Reus would be happy with 20 minute cameo's.

Robben and Reus? But what about Neymar and Ribery? Martinez and Bastian vs Busquets and god knows who. That Bayern midfield 4 plus Muller is far better in the defensive phase than whatever 5 players you name for Barca. Mascherano and Busquets is the only comparable midfield to that Bayern midfield and god help us trying to play football with just those two in their...Messi will be back inside his own half trying to get the ball.

Madrid? Of course James isnt holding it together. But when they have Isco/James-Modric-Kroos-Bale, its those 4 who act as a line, so lets leave Cristiano out of it.

Isco and James dont get ahead of the ball, they come towards the ball..they are truly midfielders and its not surprise to me that Madrid look better in both defence and attack when they play and not Bale. In any case, I dont see Madrid midfield working well defensively, they do a decent job but its hanging on by a thread, constantly on the verge of it being unworkable in my opinion. And again, think about the movements of Neymar and Reus vs Isco and James.

How was my claim that MSN will work proven wrong though? Not only is the team only 7 games away from a treble while Suarez has proven to be the difference maker lots of times in important games like Alexis never could but Barca has broken its clean sheet record and has conceded the fewest goals in Europe as it stands (obviously it can still all go to shit but so far so good, fair to say it's closer to working than not working). Single instances like Marcelo having the game of his life is just a microcosm of it, in the broader picture I'd have MSN as it is right now rather than Alexis on the wing and Messi as false 9 just because Alexis would put in more of a defensive shift on the wing against Marcelo. Marcelo is the best offensive wingback in the world right now while Alves has declined a great deal, that side will always suffer against Madrid when they overload it with pacey players like Ronaldo, Marcelo (+ last season Di Maria, that was a horrorshow in that 4-3 Clasico).

I already said Busquets wouldn't be suited for that kind of formation if Reus were to come and the tactics were to be shifted to 4-2-3-1. That's why I wrote "appropriate CDM" and not Busquets in my formation.

Let's let Cristiano out of it, okay (but you included Messi in Barca's case). So Madrid's line is:

James-Kroos-Modric-Bale.

Isco AND James only happens when there are injuries.

So the wide positions are defended by Bale and James. Well, guess what, Reus defends better than James and Neymar defends better than Bale, regardless of James coming towards the ball as a midfielder (in Barca's case Messi would do that to add superiority, albeit from the middle and not from wide, but the tactical nuances and proper positioning of the players aren't exactly unexecutable).

Fair enough if you think Madrid are on the verge of it not working. I think the same. But for different reasons, not the formation itself. Kroos and Modric are still no defensive midfielders and Bale is truly a lazy player, more than any Barca player. Ronaldo is the same. 2 lazy players and 2 central midfielders who aren't defensive specialists will get exposed at some point. Probably one of the few teams these days where playing Messi in the middle and not on the wing would actually expose them. If Kroos and Modric are tasked to mark Messi while Suarez is occupying the centerbacks I don't see who will transition their play. IMO you saw it in the 2nd half of the last Clasico once Messi played more through the middle or when Neymar had some great dribbles through the middle like knife through butter.

Dear Admin,

Your argument seem to rest on the premise that the trio of Neymar-Reus-Messi don't 've the work rate required for a 4231. But all three are very much capable of upping the ante on the defensive side of things. Infact, messi is very underrated for his defensive awareness. He's demonstrated that with the NT/Barca. He doesn't show as much with his club because his role doesn't always demands it and the fact that he plays almost every min. of the season, the need to conserve energy is paramount. But in a demanding situation, he's more than capable. The team should make the most out of its best player, and IMO Messi is better in the heart of the action than he's in a hybrid role. Messi behind #9 had his best ever period for the NT.

You can disagree ofc, but Reus/or someone similar and a tenacious CDM can actually make Barca even more formidable. And I wouldn't necessarily call Reus a superstar, not in the Neymessi level stardom. He's an individualist as much as he's a teamplayer.

Hapless_Hans wrote:Guys.

Reus could've left for cheap after this season, without BVB having a say and him having the pick of all clubs.
He instead extended. Ever thought that maybe he likes it at Dortmund?

He's born-bred Dortmund boy, ofc he's going to like it there. what a silly ques to ask.
And given his club's troubles, I think it was honorable of him to renew his contract when most of their other star players have been looking for an easy way out. It was good gesture from the player but also a statement from the club by retaining their most valued asset. That said, a footballer of his quality is not without ambition, and it will be hard to break Bayern's monopoly in the upcoming seasons. I don't think he'd be adverse to shifting shores in a season or two if he and his club received an amicable offer and they have marked out a good enough replacement.

Now given his Blaugrana inclination, I feel our transfer ban also made the decision easier for him. If Barca pursued him in the near future I'm confident he'd pick us over others despite our current status-quo. But that effort needs to be made.

1. If you remember I never said it cant work and I never said your wrong to say it can work. I simply said that it will give us defensive problems and if you cant see it has I dunno what to say.

2. Its not single instances is it? Marcelo did it twice and it wasnt just his own great quality. In various other games we have seen us concede goals and chances from the same unbalanced dynamic. Just because we won those game doesnt erase my memory of what happened.

3. I included Messi in comparision to Muller, not to Cristiano. Muller worked his tail off to help the midfield 4...Messi doesnt and Cristiano doesnt. All I said was Muller helped Bayern's system alot, not that it was dependant on him doing it.

4. You missed the boat on James. Him coming towards the ball means he doesnt run beyond it, so when he doesnt run beyond it he is closer to an ideal defensive position if the ball is lost.

5. Last point to you futbol. Look up on youtube any Isco vs Barca or Marcelo vs Barca in the more recent game and watch the complitations of all their touches and look where Rakitic is in all those clips. You think Reus will be or even want to be in those positions? Positionally Rakitic did decent but his actual defending was barely average, you can see this for himself how easily he was dribbled and how few good defensive plays he had...you think Reus would do better?


@À bout de souffle

1. Nope, my premise is not just on the work rate. Its also about defensive skill and what kind of players they are.

As I said, they move different in attack and when you lose the ball, they are in different positions and therefore not in the position to defend as a 4 man midfield. Also, they are forwards..no matter how hard they try, they dont have defensive awareness and skill. Neymar to me is a great player, I admire his ability..but even now he is a little lost defensively. Its not a lack of effort, he simply doesnt read situations like a midfielder..because he isnt one.

2. You speak of Messi...well the Messi is see is very inconsistent defensively. Even during a single game. Against Madrid he spent many moments wandering aimlessly not taking part defensively.

I would like to ask you to go look at a situation in the recent Madrid game where Rakitic was dribbled by Marcelo, who went on to dribble Mascherano and then had his right foot shot blocked by Mathieu..look at Messi during that moment and tell me his defensive work was impressive. If you cant find it, I can find it for you easy enough.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I'm with Mole, I don't really get why people talk about superstar forwards any more, when the middfield/defense is a much clearer issue.

For forwards I'd say we're all set with MSN, Pedro and calling back the loanees. If we get a good offer for Pedro I'd be fine replacing him with a rotation player, which Reus is not.

What we need to focus on is CM and RB. Not that we can sign anyone, anyway

Because Pedro is nowhere near good enough if Suarez or Neymar gets injured two months ago and are out for the season, or god forbid Messi. What do we do then? Or two of those players? Alex is right, we've been lucky.

I can agree that we definitely need an overhaul in midfield, and defense as well (as far as Alves goes for sure) perhaps in a priority above getting a good forward that can do a job in the late season for us in case of injury (and allow us to rotate more than we do), however it's still a worthwhile discussion. I still think it's something we're going to need pretty soon.

I don't think we need a Reus level player though. We need someone good, but not necessarily Reus level. Why would he play on the bench for us anyway? He won't.

Also laughed at Veratti-Busquets in a midfield two. No.

I approve of Veratti but it would be in a midfield three and I feel unfortunately that it would require either a Barca team that is better at keeping possession under pressure (or alternatively can press like prime Barca) than this one or a midfield player next to Veratti that is better defensively than Iniesta. Otherwise it's probably too exposed. I can't say it's particularly more exposed than Iniesta-Busquets-Xavi, but like I said, that was prime Barca with possession and pressing. The good thing about Veratti is that he could contribute greatly to helping Barca keep better possession under pressure, I've been very impressed with his ability in this regard, ten times the player Rakitic will be in that ability.

Still don't understand the idea of a 4-2-3-1 for us personally.

The Franchise wrote:
@À bout de souffle

1. Nope, my premise is not just on the work rate. Its also about defensive skill and what kind of players they are.

As I said, they move different in attack and when you lose the ball, they are in different positions and therefore not in the position to defend as a 4 man midfield. Also, they are forwards..no matter how hard they try, they dont have defensive awareness and skill. Neymar to me is a great player, I admire his ability..but even now he is a little lost defensively. Its not a lack of effort, he simply doesnt read situations like a midfielder..because he isnt one.

2. You speak of Messi...well the Messi is see is very inconsistent defensively. Even during a single game. Against Madrid he spent many moments wandering aimlessly not taking part defensively.

I would like to ask you to go look at a situation in the recent Madrid game where Rakitic was dribbled by Marcelo, who went on to dribble Mascherano and then had his right foot shot blocked by Mathieu..look at Messi during that moment and tell me his defensive work was impressive. If you cant find it, I can find it for you easy enough.

I wanted to reply to you last night but it was late on my side, but I seem to notice you'd difficulty addressing me by my username. For purposes of convenience, you can call me Barcagirl or culer (and that applies to others having the same issue)

The sticking point seems to be that you don't think either Reus/Neymar 've the necessary tools (workarte, discipline and defensive nous) to function in a 4 man midfield, owing to the fact that they are forwards. I'll 've to disagree there because Reus' a very capable winger. Neymar, I'd agree can improve his game reading and some other facets of his game, but that will come with time considering his age.
Ideally, I'd prefer one having the better form between Neymar/Reus starting the big affair, but I acknowledge the ensuing player discontent in such a scenario. Whilst the flouted idea of 4231 are not without problems, but if it can be realised in majority of the games it could be transitioned to  the big stage with more caution and cohesive execution.

I proposed the idea of Reus, because he'd be an immediate impact player, and will not represent a drop in quality as a cover, whilst also worth having him incorporate in the current XI. With the shift from MF to an attack oriented play, having a top class fourth attacker would serve us well.
Madrid can summon Isco, Bayern do so with Götze/Müller. Barca have a regressed Pedro and a bunch of unproven academy players.

You'r right about Messi being inconsistent in his defensive play, but its more down to his nonchalance than his lack of defensive acumen. And yes, as trequartista/enganche he'll 've to display greater consistency, but its not something entirely out of his realm, if better player-game management is put in place.


Not sure whats so ludicrous about a Busi-Verratti tandem. Busi's game has never been about athleticism, but intelligent positioning, sure he's not very mobile but Verratti's engine, tenacity, aggression (if anyone has watched the player) makes up for it. Did Busi not combine with one of Alonso/JM in a 4231 for Spain, or am I imagining things?

Do any of you guys still rate Vidal as a good midfield?
i mean if pogba isn't possible or verrati surely he isn't a terrible option?

You guys have to realize Messi is getting older, and as such will be running even less than he is now. As he approaches his 30s, I can't see him adjusting to a position such as a 10 in a 4-2-3-1. I mean, a fully fit and young Messi had a tendency to drift out of games to conserve energy. Do you really think a 30 year old one is going to put in 100% for 90 minutes?

Surely the #10 position requires less physical effort than playing on the wing and being up against fullbacks and wingers. Often players move from FB to CB (Abidal, Mathieu ...) or from the wing to midfield (Giggs) when they age and not the other way around. As a #10 Messi would be up against players like Alonso, Kroos, Matic etc. who don't have a big action radius and don't need to be tracked all over the pitch as much as wide players who keep bombing up and down the flanks.

But anyway, this leads to nothing. Some think it would work, some think it wouldn't and the reasons were elaborated in detail. Let's move on.