English FA planning tougher home-grown rules

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Post by Art Morte Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:30 am

I thought this could do with a thread of its own, easier to follow developments in the future.

BBC wrote:The FA has revealed plans to toughen the rules on home-grown talent in the latest proposals from its commission, which was set up in 2013 to improve the England team.

The commission has also proposed changes to work permit rules having highlighted flaws in the system.

The stricter work-permit rules, approved by the Home Office on Friday, will come into force from 1 May.

Under the proposals outlined by the FA on Monday:


  • A player will have to have been registered with his club from the age of 15 - down from 18 - to qualify as 'home-grown'.

    The minimum number of home-grown players in a club's first-team squad of 25 will increase from eight to 12, phased over four years from 2016.

    Only the best non-EU foreign players will be granted permission to play in England.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/32024808

Sounds to me quite the more stricter rules. Especially that age thing. As far as I know, English clubs don't sign many 15-year-olds but already at 18 you sign a lot more players that age. And can they even sign under-18-year-olds from outside their area? Isn't it that FIFA rule that has landed Barcelona in trouble about signing too young players? Has the FA thought this through? If someone has precise information on FIFA rules about signing 15-year-olds, do share.

Anyway, that coupled with the minimum number of home-growns going from eight to 12 sure sounds tough to me.

And what about those "only the best" non-EU players? Probably a host of current non-EU players wouldn't qualify, even though they have rather important or crucial roles for their clubs: Bolasie, Enner Valencia, Speroni, Elmohamady, Fernando, Ramires, Di Maria, Ki, Coutinho, Lamela...


Is the FA going too far in their efforts to improve English players?
Are they going to damage the Premier League?
Are these sort of changes even going to help the English national team?
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Post by farfan Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:46 am

how about revamping the youth system first ? not allowing better foreign players to come isn't going to improve the quality of local players .
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Post by Glory Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:34 am

Art Morte wrote:I thought this could do with a thread of its own, easier to follow developments in the future.

BBC wrote:The FA has revealed plans to toughen the rules on home-grown talent in the latest proposals from its commission, which was set up in 2013 to improve the England team.

The commission has also proposed changes to work permit rules having highlighted flaws in the system.

The stricter work-permit rules, approved by the Home Office on Friday, will come into force from 1 May.

Under the proposals outlined by the FA on Monday:


  • A player will have to have been registered with his club from the age of 15 - down from 18 - to qualify as 'home-grown'.

    The minimum number of home-grown players in a club's first-team squad of 25 will increase from eight to 12, phased over four years from 2016.

    Only the best non-EU foreign players will be granted permission to play in England.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/32024808

Sounds to me quite the more stricter rules. Especially that age thing. As far as I know, English clubs don't sign many 15-year-olds but already at 18 you sign a lot more players that age. And can they even sign under-18-year-olds from outside their area? Isn't it that FIFA rule that has landed Barcelona in trouble about signing too young players? Has the FA thought this through? If someone has precise information on FIFA rules about signing 15-year-olds, do share.

Anyway, that coupled with the minimum number of home-growns going from eight to 12 sure sounds tough to me.

And what about those "only the best" non-EU players? Probably a host of current non-EU players wouldn't qualify, even though they have rather important or crucial roles for their clubs: Bolasie, Enner Valencia, Speroni, Elmohamady, Fernando, Ramires, Di Maria, Ki, Coutinho, Lamela...


Is the FA going too far in their efforts to improve English players?
Are they going to damage the Premier League?
Are these sort of changes even going to help the English national team?


yea they cannot. At least in FM its that way. So it must be like that in real world as well.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:42 am

I feel like they should look at the youth development network in Germany and the Netherlands and make a similar investment in grass roots football rather than make a top-level demand for more 'home grown' players. That being said, I think 18 year old to qualify as home grown was too high.

On the subject of "only the best will be granted work permits", how do they determine who is best? The EPL has recently become a much more popular destination for South American footballers, I feel like this will only reverse this trend and make the PL weaker.
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Post by Art Morte Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:04 am

^ It's in the article:

Players must play at least 30% of matches in the last two years if their country is in the top 10, 45% if ranked between 11th and 20th, 60% between 21st and 30th and 75% if between 31st and 50th.

All players are currently measured over the last two years. The new regulations will allow leeway for players aged 21 or under to only fulfil the criteria for the previous 12 months.

The FA estimates that 33% of the players who gained entry under the old system would not have been granted a work visa under the new rules. That means that over the last five years there would have been 42 fewer non-European players playing in the Premier and Football Leagues.


I really don't think the FA has thought it through with that 15-year-old thing. FIFA rules state that you cannot sign players from abroad who are under 18. Thus far FIFA has turned a blind eye to it, but the transfer ban on Barcelona signals they are going to put a stop to this now. So, if you must have been at the club since you were 15 to qualify as home-grown, all those 12 (half of your 25-man squad) players would have to be English. Meaning that all the Prem clubs who can just afford it, will buy, say, a hundred 15-yo English players in trying to ensure they will have adequate-quality 12 home-grown players in the future.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:14 am

So "best" player means plays the most minutes? Laughing Real Madrid are signing an Argentine GK that has never even played in first division Laughing I think this would be a strategic disadvantage to the EPL.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:23 am

So did Art have a dig at Di Maria and Coutinho, am not sure hmm Laughing
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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:25 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:So "best" player means plays the most minutes? Laughing Real Madrid are signing an Argentine GK that has never even played in first division Laughing I think this would be a strategic disadvantage to the EPL.


most minutes in the national neam lol. What abolute nonsense.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:29 am

That must mean that MATS is a scrub but Romero is a GOAT hmm
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Post by rwo power Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:57 am

Art Morte wrote:I really don't think the FA has thought it through with that 15-year-old thing. FIFA rules state that you cannot sign players from abroad who are under 18. Thus far FIFA has turned a blind eye to it, but the transfer ban on Barcelona signals they are going to put a stop to this now. So, if you must have been at the club since you were 15 to qualify as home-grown, all those 12 (half of your 25-man squad) players would have to be English.
I guess exactly that is what they want - more English players, and that's the way to ensure this without having to fear getting into trouble with discrimination stuff.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:50 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:So "best" player means plays the most minutes? Laughing Real Madrid are signing an Argentine GK that has never even played in first division Laughing I think this would be a strategic disadvantage to the EPL.


It's moronic as it takes in consideration FIFA rankings rofl

What if you are a great player from a crap country(footballing wise)? Everything about this is so stupid but everything that comes out of Dyke's mouth is.
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Post by Cruijf Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:53 pm

So no non EU players will be allowed to be signed if they don't meet the minutes quota?

If so they're gonna murder the Premier League lol.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:04 pm

What Dyke can't get through his thick skull is that the coaching at youth players is horrendous so players are not being developed at the rate they do in other countries.

Has f*ck all to do with Johnny Foreigner taking our good English lads job opportunities, they just ain't good enough atm it's that *bleep* simple.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:23 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:What Dyke can't get through his thick skull is that the coaching at youth players is horrendous so players are not being developed at the rate they do in other countries.

Has f*ck all to do with Johnny Foreigner taking our good English lads job opportunities, they just ain't good enough atm it's that *bleep* simple.

Dat passion Laughing
Such anger Laughing
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Post by Art Morte Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:03 pm

El Gunner wrote:So did Art have a dig at Di Maria and Coutinho, am not sure hmm Laughing

It was a dig at Di Maria, but Coutinho actually would not meet the proposed criteria, because he hasn't played enough for Brazil.

rwo power wrote:
Art Morte wrote:I really don't think the FA has thought it through with that 15-year-old thing. FIFA rules state that you cannot sign players from abroad who are under 18. Thus far FIFA has turned a blind eye to it, but the transfer ban on Barcelona signals they are going to put a stop to this now. So, if you must have been at the club since you were 15 to qualify as home-grown, all those 12 (half of your 25-man squad) players would have to be English.

I guess exactly that is what they want - more English players, and that's the way to ensure this without having to fear getting into trouble with discrimination stuff.

That will lead to what's said here:

Cruijf wrote:So no non EU players will be allowed to be signed if they don't meet the minutes quota?

If so they're gonna murder the Premier League lol.

The quality of the Prem will be destroyed. Imagine how stupid that would be, the richest league in the world deliberately hindering itself & paying 100k per week to Aaron Lennons and Jason Puncheons because they're the better players you are allowed to have.
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Post by RedOranje Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:30 pm

Surely this is the epitome of cutting off the nose to spite the face.


It's hard for me to comment too much on English youth as I live an ocean away, but the problem seems in many ways similar to that in the US: a lack of technical focus and modern practices in youth development in favor of traditional tactics and physicality. Rather than gutting the Premier League (which is already struggling to keep up with the major continental sides in some ways) and risking an eventual significant drop in amount of money (reduced CL presence, reduced quality and thus reduced interest and lower television and marketing revenue) which would have the knock-on effect of lowering funds available to the clubs' youth academies, surely the FA could finally make some significant progress on the "Grass-roots" side of football that keeps getting mentioned but never actually addressed.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:31 pm

Why go through the hard process of analysing and correcting your own faults when you can just blame it on 'too many foreigners' though?
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Post by RedOranje Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:41 pm

Because its the right thing to do?

And because history has demonstrated repeatedly that the "blame foreigners/others" option only causes more issues on top of the (ignored) current ones?
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:43 pm

El Gunner wrote:
Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:What Dyke can't get through his thick skull is that the coaching at youth players is horrendous so players are not being developed at the rate they do in other countries.

Has f*ck all to do with Johnny Foreigner taking our good English lads job opportunities, they just ain't good enough atm it's that *bleep* simple.

Dat passion Laughing
Such anger Laughing


Passion? yes, Anger? No.
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Post by Arquitecto Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:48 pm

People always tend to mistake Mole's passion for anger. It's the Valencian side in him.

As for on topic, its already been said here, the problem lay with the fundamental development itself rather than allocation of English players.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:53 pm

RedOranje wrote:Because its the right thing to do?

And because history has demonstrated repeatedly that the "blame foreigners/others" option only causes more issues on top of the (ignored) current ones?


Why do the right thing when it's easier to do the wrong thing though?

And why care about problems that might occur at a later date when you can just paint over the current ones?
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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:57 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:What Dyke can't get through his thick skull is that the coaching at youth players is horrendous so players are not being developed at the rate they do in other countries.

Has f*ck all to do with Johnny Foreigner taking our good English lads job opportunities, they just ain't good enough atm it's that *bleep* simple.


The absurd thing is of course that it will favour big clubs who can afford the 'best' non-EU players AND who can afford a sizable legal department lol.

But to be fair, the FA proposal does include the coaching and grass roots part of the equation too..

The England Commission identified four key areas which were contributing to a shortage of top quality English players breaking through to the top tier of club football. These were:

   A lack of quality coaching.
   An absence of quality facilities at grassroots level.
   A lack of opportunities for home grown players to play competitive first team football between the ages of 18 and 21.
   The regulation of the English players market’s effectiveness in preserving the desired balance of British, EU and non-EU players.

To start addressing these problems, in October 2014, The FA announced a major investment in coaching including a new head of coaching education at St. George’s Park, 35 full-time FA coach educators and a plan to drastically raise the number of Advanced Youth and Pro Licence coaching qualification holders.

The FA also announced a plan to create football hubs in 30 English cities by 2020, with a 130% increase in artificial grass pitches in urban areas and a 50% rise in publicly accessible full-size pitches.

But Dyke believes the final part of the pipeline for young home grown talent is still broken. Today’s proposed rule changes are designed to fix this long running problem.

http://www.thefa.com/news/thefa/2015/mar/greg-dyke-england-commission-homegrown-players-work-permits-march-2015
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Post by Rebaño Sagrado Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:59 pm

RedOranje wrote:Because its the right thing to do?

And because history has demonstrated repeatedly that the "blame foreigners/others" option only causes more issues on top of the (ignored) current ones?

Before you bite again, he's joking brah.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:28 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:What Dyke can't get through his thick skull is that the coaching at youth players is horrendous so players are not being developed at the rate they do in other countries.

Has f*ck all to do with Johnny Foreigner taking our good English lads job opportunities, they just ain't good enough atm it's that *bleep* simple.


The absurd thing is of course that it will favour big clubs who can afford the 'best' non-EU players AND who can afford a sizable legal department lol.

But to be fair, the FA proposal does include the coaching and grass roots part of the equation too..

The England Commission identified four key areas which were contributing to a shortage of top quality English players breaking through to the top tier of club football. These were:

   A lack of quality coaching.
   An absence of quality facilities at grassroots level.
   A lack of opportunities for home grown players to play competitive first team football between the ages of 18 and 21.
   The regulation of the English players market’s effectiveness in preserving the desired balance of British, EU and non-EU players.

To start addressing these problems, in October 2014, The FA announced a major investment in coaching including a new head of coaching education at St. George’s Park, 35 full-time FA coach educators and a plan to drastically raise the number of Advanced Youth and Pro Licence coaching qualification holders.

The FA also announced a plan to create football hubs in 30 English cities by 2020, with a 130% increase in artificial grass pitches in urban areas and a 50% rise in publicly accessible full-size pitches.

But Dyke believes the final part of the pipeline for young home grown talent is still broken. Today’s proposed rule changes are designed to fix this long running problem.

http://www.thefa.com/news/thefa/2015/mar/greg-dyke-england-commission-homegrown-players-work-permits-march-2015


That's fair enough but the ideas regarding foreigners are absolutely ridiculous and it will hurt more than help.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:39 pm

I agree.

As I said in the PL thread, the fact that ONLY the PL already has these work permit restrictions designed to keep foreign players out yet they are the ONLY league who's countries NT is underperforming should tell us enough about the usefulness of it.
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