Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

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Post by Nishankly Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:37 am

@Art Morte wrote:
@Nishankly wrote:
@Art Morte wrote:


Multicultural and multiracial societies in Europe and NA are failing and I see nothing in the horizon that would reverse the trend, in fact it's been getting steadily worse. My previous comment was an obviously sarcastic remark on yet another terrorist attack, but this one is my serious belief.



It's failing at the lowest level where poverty is mixed with cultural clashes for helpless people who do not change based on fixed beliefs and lack of support. And at the lowest level societies fail regardless of immigration or not.

The story is extremely different starting with the lower middle and upper financial classes who have integrated, it works out amazingly and is beautiful to witness and experience it on a daily basis. I doubt you'll ever get to see that anyways with your location and information gathering based on news to label all societies while sitting within a homogenous one.


I believe humans have an intrinsic need to be among people they recognise as their own. That is what helped primitive tribes to survive tens of thousands of years ago and that is why nations have been born and molded later on. In peaceful and prosperous times you can do more mixing of tribes without trouble, but there's a limit. And we've broken that limit.


I am extremely sorry you have been brought up in that environment. Especially the fact you choose to bifurcate humans.
I am as human as you Art as are innocent billions but you like to stop at hundreds, your intrinsic need to relate to a white person doesn't make us less human. If you don't realize this in 2020 and use caveman arguments to justify yourself and divide people who bleed the same blood, I don't know what to say.

It's religion nothing else. We need to eradicate this virus. US is winning urban cities with 10-15% immgrants while people from irrelevant EU countries crib about how billions can't integrate.

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Post by Art Morte Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:08 am

I don't divide people into groups of who are better than others. I don't believe that if you took 10 million white Europeans and put them in Kenya that it would be a success just like I don't believe if you took 10 million Japanese and put them in Brazil it would be a success. I'm not against people from different cultures and races, I'm against freely mixing them too much in one society, because it doesn't seem to work as well as it should.

Muslim terrorism is just the most ghastly manifestation of these multicultural struggles; I don't think multicultural and multiracial societies are successes even if there isn't killing. Integration just doesn't seem to happen.
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Post by VivaStPauli Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:29 am

Wat

Ok several things:
1) Modern nation states basically exist purely to facilitate taxation, there's volumes of history books on that
2) Your ethnic argument is dumb, Germany for example is a federation of vastly different former nations, you just think we're homogenous because we're all white, but Saxons living together with Francs, Swabians, Hessians and Bavarians is culturally just as ridiculous as Kenyans living together with Italians, even the shared language only came with time.
3) Muslim terrorists aren't the result of multiculturalism, they're people trying to enforce their monoculture upon multiculturalism, and I get your train of thought of "no muslims in the west = no muslim terrorism in the west", but the west wouldn't be The West anymore if it didn't let in people of different creeds and religions, so what are you protecting at that point? If you kick out all muslims we're just a Christian Caliphate, so why bother?
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Post by Arquitecto Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:09 am

I surmise Art like me, values the existence of culture, what he grew up around him and what makes Northern Europe for what it is.

One grows up around his culture, his or her people, his or her race; they naturally will be more comfortable within and most will be against changing the status quo.

Multiculturalism Arty, is indeed the death of that culture as the lands become homogenised and globalism my old friend is inevitable.

Multiculturalism is indeed over rated by many but its benefits I have come to learn do outweigh the perspective you pose. New York City is a grand example of such and now the most important city in the world, subjectively speaking.

Because you are looking within a finite spectrum of things but historically speaking you must analyse the pattern of multiculturalism.


I would speak for you and say there should be a limit to how many are allowed in and out of control and some scoping of the demographics but it simply is the world we live in now and the only choice is adaption.

Speaking as a person who had more inert views on things a decade ago, from women to culture to rights to ideals, the more one travels and the more one Does, is the more he is open to miscegenation and cultivation of different people.


I mostly agree with the ethos of what you say and you should not be chastised for that but looking into the technicalities its an introspective thought that sadly wont carry on to the real world.

What you can do and I am sure you are is that said adaptation and enjoy what you love of your land while it lasts. For it is a beautiful distinction that Im without a doubt.


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Post by Casciavit Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:09 pm

I just know Art is one of those Finns who sneer at the Somalis at Itäkeskus mall. A more well-spoken Unique on this subject matter I'll give him that. You ain't fooling no one.
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Post by Art Morte Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:24 pm

I'm not trying to fool anyone, I simply don't believe in multiculturalism. There are too many examples from all over the world how it hasn't come good. Merkel said already 10 years ago that multiculturalism in Germany has failed and I haven't learnt anything about the situation improving:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11559451

I'm willing to read about successful large-scale integration stories about multiculturalism if you have them going around.
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Post by Casciavit Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:41 pm

Do you not consider Canada a successful multicultural society?
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Post by Warrior Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:44 pm

They turn what you say in ridiculous, they refuse to see the problems. In their minds it's either black or white, certainly it cannot be shades of grey.

Multiculturalism dilutes the society that receives. But it increases its versatility.

My mind is more on your side, but that's in theory, without context. The reality is i have many immigrant friends, co-workers, all these people are fine, they just want to live peacefully. So my heart accepts multiculturalism because only a small % of immigration is creating trouble and trying to impose their willl, the rest (like 9 out of 10) have good intentions.

Ultimately it's culture that will become more global thing, less specificities, just a huge melting pot, it's already started i think.
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Post by Warrior Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:52 pm

French canadians and natives are being despised for centuries, but don't you dare ask questions about immigration. The canadian hypocrisy.

But yes it's probably the best example of multiculturalism, living here is fine, since we succeed to give a sense of belonging for newcomers. I think it's the key

Sadly i don't think it's the same in Europe, there's violent clashes almost every week, crazy to deny it
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Post by Warrior Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:19 pm

Sorry i intervened

Just wanted to add a perspective on this subject, since everybody highlights Art comes from homogenic Finland to discard what he says.

Ultimately we are all the same humans individually and the ethnicity and culture of others should not matter, it does not for me personally. But this good philosophy does NOT transpose in society, instead it creates problems and clashes... while everyday life does not change that much unless you are deep into politics Laughing Very touchy subject since there are proofs for both sides (beneficial or detrimental)
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Post by Arquitecto Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:32 pm

I personally find it pathetic when anyone resorts to the predictable Ad-hominem used against Art as a whole nor does it need to be addressed.


But like an idealogy of Libertarismism or Alt-Right it may sound right to one on paper but never does it or will it translate into modern society unlike you're a small country in a specific geopolitical state and population. It just does not thus it isn't listened to unless one makes holistic movements to make it happen.


I too get his state of mind but suggest find better examples to back up his debate, as well.
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Post by Nishankly Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:09 pm

Art takes a Pan EU approach while Unique takes a UK approach with examples whenever asked. If Art wants to draw the line around the Europe, then yes I question the roots and why is his line so expansive covering different cultures, languages and traditions rather than sticking to Finland, you can call it pathetic.
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Post by Art Morte Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:25 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:
But like an idealogy of Libertarismism or Alt-Right it may sound right to one on paper but never does it or will it translate into modern society unlike (do you mean "unless"?) you're a small country in a specific geopolitical state and population. It just does not thus it isn't listened to unless one makes holistic movements to make it happen.


I too get his state of mind but suggest find better examples to back up his debate, as well.

Sweden is the closest example to Finland. I think everyone accepts they're one of the "nicest", most tolerating and most equal countries in the world. The most dominating multicultural news about Sweden are from places like Malmö and Göteborg, where minorities that haven't integrated are running organised criminal gangs. A month or two ago there was a piece of news that the police learnt about a gang-imposed curfew in one part of town when they realised there were hardly any people out in the streets in the evening. An anonymous witness told the press that the gang members had started to spread the word that anyone who was out after 6pm would face severe violence and that they all had guns and they pretty much run the place. Sometimes the news from this multicultural idyllic of Sweden make international news, too, like this mass burning of cars:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45181321

If I have this kind of example right in our Nordic neighbour, what about it should make me go "Oh, I wish we could get some of that. It really is boringly peaceful over here."?

@Nishankly wrote:Art takes a Pan EU approach while Unique takes a UK approach with examples whenever asked. If Art wants to draw the line around the Europe, then yes I question the roots and why is his line so expansive covering different cultures, languages and traditions rather than sticking to Finland, you can call it pathetic.

I don't think you're even trying to understand what I'm saying. I'm against multiculturalism globally. Not just in Europe, everywhere. Once you try to mix people from too different backgrounds together, it just doesn't work on large scale.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:42 pm

@Art Morte wrote:I'm not trying to fool anyone, I simply don't believe in multiculturalism.


I don't understand a sentence like that. Multiculturalism is not a religion, or a faith. It's a fact of society, and it's a prerequisite for a modern society to acknowledge that fact.

I'm sure in Finland alone, without any immigration from further away, you'd have Russian population, you have, whatever your typical Fins are, bears? Skandinavians?, you have your native Laplanders, or Sami?

So you'd have a multicultural society there already.

In Germany for example, one main problem is quite simply that the center-right spectrum of post-war West German society refused to acknowledge the immigrants from Turkey or Italy, who were needed and asked to come to help with the famous economical 'miracle', as part of the society, they considered them "Gastarbeiter", literally "guest workers", even after they'd been living and living in Germany among Germans for years and decades.

And while these "guest workers" were striving to assimilate hard, but were rejected as permanently alien to German society, now you have the phenomenon that the children and grandchildren of those immigrants, Germans with a "migration background" as they're called, reject the notion of being German and strive to distance themselves.

And now people are claiming "multculturalism" is failing when they went for decades pretending as if their immigrant neighbours didn't exist and didn't deserve attention or recognition, or political rights for that matter. They didn't pay attention to the immigrant part of society, except for directing resentment towards it, and neither did they pay attention to any actual problem-solving that a diverse society would need, as they basically just wanted them to go away at some point, and be invisible and quiet while cleaning the buildings and working the factories and fields until they do.

Multiculturalism is a fact of modern society, whether its problems or advantages prevail IMO has a lot to do with acknowledging, welcoming, cultivating but also managing this fact.

And so this talking point of "multiculturalism is failing" is, for me, a quintessential bad faith argument, as it's often coming from people who themselves contribute to what's failing about their society's multiculturality and work against it functioning.
It's like if I don't buy warm clothes for my family and then claim that "living in winter is failing"
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Post by Art Morte Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:23 pm

So, what's the solution to it? It's all right telling an individual to treat everyone absolutely the same, but when on masses level it's not working, what's the solution? Because it certainly isn't working out. At what point does it become an unrealistic expectation that on a whole population level things are going to change for the better? What's the endgame? How many more decades we have to wait for multiculturalism to start working?
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:38 pm

@Art Morte wrote:So, what's the solution to it? It's all right telling an individual to treat everyone absolutely the same, but when on masses level it's not working, what's the solution? Because it certainly isn't working out. At what point does it become an unrealistic expectation that on a whole population level things are going to change for the better? What's the endgame? How many more decades we have to wait for multiculturalism to start working?


But why do you think it's not working out?

Because there are gangs in Malmö? Or because Germany has to find shelter for a few ten thousand Syrians? Or because there's a terror attack every 15, or 5, or 2 months?

And then these above problems have vastly different contexts and causes, too, much more than to attribute them to a single factor that you seem to regard as the "mixing of cultures".

I don't know what experiences you have made, where you have lived, what you have witnessed, so I really don't mean to presume, nor do I want to pretend that there are no problems attached to migration.

But why is it not working? I'ts working fine. Show me a monocultural society where life is better.
North Korea?
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Post by Art Morte Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:06 pm

Well, I don't think it's working out. If you think it is, fine.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:26 pm

That's maybe a bit simplistic, I wouldn't say everything is just working out fine.

But I'm not sure what exactly we are talking about. I'll read the whole thread and then maybe have a bit more grounded opinion.
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Post by Arquitecto Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:43 am

@Nishankly wrote:Art takes a Pan EU approach while Unique takes a UK approach with examples whenever asked. If Art wants to draw the line around the Europe, then yes I question the roots and why is his line so expansive covering different cultures, languages and traditions rather than sticking to Finland, you can call it pathetic.



Pathetic was not directed to you Nish or anyone in particular for that matter and Art's debate isn't based on Europe but globally per say. Ive no further thoughts on that particularly.
@Art

Indeed a city like Mälmo for sure is by far the worst example in Northern Europe but you must understand the country themselves also have done a poor job of assimilating them and a lot of such come from lower class backgrounds that also reflect their traits and frustrations in the differences in how they are treated.

There is zero excuse for their degeneracy but such fiends will also be highlighted more compared to the other immigrants.

Genuine question for you beyond all this; What are your current apprehensions and fear for your land in the coming inevitable globalism? This is in the light assumption you may have one but what do you propose should occur within Western to Northern Europe in terms of control or balance in Multi culturalism? What is your ultimate desire of what is to occur?
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Post by Nishankly Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:22 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:
@Nishankly wrote:Art takes a Pan EU approach while Unique takes a UK approach with examples whenever asked. If Art wants to draw the line around the Europe, then yes I question the roots and why is his line so expansive covering different cultures, languages and traditions rather than sticking to Finland, you can call it pathetic.



Pathetic was not directed to you Nish or anyone in particular for that matter and Art's debate isn't based on Europe but globally per say. Ive no further thoughts on that particularly.
@Art

Indeed a city like Mälmo for sure is by far the worst example in Northern Europe but you must understand the country themselves also have done a poor job of assimilating them and a lot of such come from lower class backgrounds that also reflect their traits and frustrations in the differences in how they are treated.

There is zero excuse for their degeneracy but such fiends will also be highlighted more compared to the other immigrants.

Genuine question for you beyond all this; What are your current apprehensions and fear for your land in the coming inevitable globalism? This is in the light assumption you may have one but what do you propose should occur within Western to Northern Europe in terms of control or balance in Multi culturalism? What is your ultimate desire of what is to occur?


Can't give a shit about Western and Northern Europe. The world is getting hotter, and we'll all move to north as fellow Humans. Deal with it.
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Post by Arquitecto Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:34 pm

Tsk Nish most of it was directed at Art nor are any opinions posted in my post you replied to beyond my commentary of the degeneracy of the highlighted.
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Post by Nishankly Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:41 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:Tsk Nish most of it was directed at Art nor are any opinions posted in my post you replied to beyond my commentary of the degeneracy of the highlighted.


I am sure Arq and I apologize for it, that I have lost sense of what is satire and serious as the post have progressed. But its true, Europe, Russia and NA will need to consider the fact when we move upwards when the heat gets too hot to suffer. The current 200 km EU country "culture and yo we gotta save them" will be irrelevant then.
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:24 am

No worries amigo glad you understand.

What you present is quite impractical if I think of it from a surface point of view but clearly a necessity and one that must be done sooner than later. Having closely spoken to photographer James Balog once who documents the decline of glaciers it is obvious what is occurring in such regions including the north.


Im more interested in what you see happening for original homeland in South Asia as what will occur specifically in that region, and what do you suggest as a solution for there?
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Post by Babun Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:23 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:No worries amigo glad you understand.

What you present is quite impractical if I think of it from a surface point of view but clearly a necessity and one that must be done sooner than later. Having closely spoken to photographer James Balog once who documents the decline of glaciers it is obvious what is occurring in such regions including the north.


Im more interested in what you see happening for original homeland in South Asia as what will occur specifically in that region, and what do you suggest as a solution for there?

Change of the timing, the amount of rainfall and its distribution are enough to cause famine for millions of people. What the deniers don't understand is the weather doesn't have to warm up all around the globe, the turbulences caused by the excess of energy (yes, there're more than warmth energy and almost all of them derive from the sunlight one way or another) can create havoc, famine, ice ages etc. all at the same time.
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Post by Art Morte Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:33 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:
Genuine question for you beyond all this; What are your current apprehensions and fear for your land in the coming inevitable globalism? This is in the light assumption you may have one but what do you propose should occur within Western to Northern Europe in terms of control or balance in Multi culturalism? What is your ultimate desire of what is to occur?


I'm relaxed about Finland's situation when it comes to multiculturalism; I don't think it's going to get bad in my life time (and I don't live in Helsinki). I'm not against multiculturalism because I fear for Finland; I'm against it because of so many examples of badly failed multiculturalism globally.

Ultimately I think immigration should be based on a points system that's based on cultural & social anthropology; Universities around the world studying the cultural and social differences of nations and ethnic groups. Ideally a United Nations funded and observed continuous study that's purely scientific, i.e. independent from political and other influences. Up to each country, then, to use these anthropological results to decide what kind of immigration policy they want to implement.

Obviously this won't happen, because anything that goes against the rose-tinted thinking of our times that all groups of people should be able to co-exist with each other without problems is declared racist on the spot. So, this "eyes wide shut" pretending that multicultural and multiracial societies will come good and truly successfully integrate any time now goes on.
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Post by Arquitecto Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:09 pm

@Babun wrote:
@Arquitecto wrote:No worries amigo glad you understand.

What you present is quite impractical if I think of it from a surface point of view but clearly a necessity and one that must be done sooner than later. Having closely spoken to photographer James Balog once who documents the decline of glaciers it is obvious what is occurring in such regions including the north.


Im more interested in what you see happening for original homeland in South Asia as what will occur specifically in that region, and what do you suggest as a solution for there?

Change of the timing, the amount of rainfall and its distribution are enough to cause famine for millions of people. What the deniers don't understand is the weather doesn't have to warm up all around the globe, the turbulences caused by the excess of energy (yes, there're more than warmth energy and almost all of them derive from the sunlight one way or another) can create havoc, famine, ice ages etc. all at the same time.



Being a former denier earlier in the last decade what you say really is the clinching point in what deniers need to understand, regardless of their point on things like Solar radiation and what not. Agreed.
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