Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting

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Post by Blue Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:33 am

Every individual should be judged based on his own actions, no group should bare responsibility of another’s individual.

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Post by Warrior Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:23 am

Arquitecto wrote:As much as Ive defended Muslims here but even the moderate ones are seriously prone to be irritating and to outstanding double standards.


They always expect to be treated like royalty in non-Muslim  countries, push for their sharia law and obsolete facets of some of their culture and fail to acknowledge that minorities in their countries are treated like fucking shit. Jews, Christians and Hindus you name it.


Not generalising but Muslim oppression as it they call it, has begun to be more that Muslims do not to dominate a country. If they don't, then oppressed.

Someone please inform me to what they are protesting of within London, thanks.



Yes it annoys me as well, as an entity the muslim diaspora is hard to deal with for the countries that receive. But curiosity leads me to try finding the explanations. Mainly curiosity because to me they are the troubles of our times, just like irish and italians had troubles integrating before. All i know is eventually it will modify my society, for better or for worse. I don't believe muslims will destroy us.

One of my good friend is algerian, came here in his early childhood. Was in the middle of a smoke session with him as i learned the Paris attacks (to be precise, those of 13 nov 2015, not the hundred others)

Anyway it lead to a somewhat philosophical discussion and i said whatever crap the herbs put in my mouth "we think immigrants don't give a shit about this country and you guys think we see you as lesser, in reality we are both wrong" we stopped and it blew our minds for a while

Well to this day i still believe in this sentence for ~90% of persons, the 10% remaining are lost cases. Simply because nothing proves me otherwise. If the discussion revolved around the actual state of the every day interactions, already social peace could be achieved. Sadly there is propaganda on both sides and if you repeat lies a thousand times, it does not make it true, but the brain becomes more aware.

This is my personal experience in my country, the separation is far less in every day life. But the opinions are exagerated, based on what happens elsewhere.

Then i realize most you guys are europeans and your reality is different. In France for example, the sentence i said actually applies. The separation is real over there and probably that's why they have daily beheadings. Their social debate must not only be more lucid, also there must be apologies on both sides for some past and present events, clearly the hardest part. Thankfully being canadian allows me neutrality, be it in my street i'd see beheadings and hear Allah Wakbar, it would require me a lot of mental strength not to have negative bias. Would still be worth trying, as hate and violence would poison me, and then Daech wins.


Blue wrote:Every individual should be judged based on his own actions, no group should bare responsibility of another’s individual.


Agreed with the first statement, disagreed with the second. Once the group as enough influence over an indivual it becomes liable. Here the group is not islam but its extreme derivate islamism.
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Post by Nishankly Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:24 am

Blue wrote:Every individual should be judged based on his own actions, no group should bare responsibility of another’s individual.


Right but where do you draw a line with every individual associating the final act to something similar? That is where is the problem comes back in and that is where religion unfortunately comes back.

and every time I have brought that up, every single post has avoided answering that question in this thread. We cannot separate religion from these mental midgets and that is exactly why the world has a problem with this specific religion right now.
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Post by Warrior Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:29 am

I want to scratch "also there must be apologies on both sides for some past and present events" from my previous post

Poor choice of words, what i meant is there must be extra effort to get over some past and present events. More empathy but no need for apologies.
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Post by sportsczy Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:32 am

Nishankly wrote:
Blue wrote:Every individual should be judged based on his own actions, no group should bare responsibility of another’s individual.


Right but where do you draw a line with every individual associating the final act to something similar? That is where is the problem comes back in and that is where religion unfortunately comes back.

and every time I have brought that up, every single post has avoided answering that question in this thread. We cannot separate religion from these mental midgets and that is exactly why the world has a problem with this specific religion right now.

Plenty of Christian extremism in the US...  many white supremacist doctrines allege that they are acting as true Christians.  Does that make Christianity as a whole guilty?  Should every Christian person be judged because of these lunatics?

Similarly, the Satmar Hasidic Jewish group is the culprit of not adhering to COVID rules all over the world.  The big flare-ups of the virus are often in these neighborhoods.  They say that God will decide if they are meant to live or die.  Do you project the views they express as those of the Jewish population at large?  Should all Jews be judged because of the acts of this group?

Your argument is extremely dangerous dude.

Extremism of any kind should be condemned. I don't care what religion or other reason is given.

The issue we have today is that more and more people are extreme. It's scary.
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Post by Nishankly Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:48 am

sportsczy wrote:
Nishankly wrote:
Blue wrote:Every individual should be judged based on his own actions, no group should bare responsibility of another’s individual.


Right but where do you draw a line with every individual associating the final act to something similar? That is where is the problem comes back in and that is where religion unfortunately comes back.

and every time I have brought that up, every single post has avoided answering that question in this thread. We cannot separate religion from these mental midgets and that is exactly why the world has a problem with this specific religion right now.

Plenty of Christian extremism in the US...  many white supremacist doctrines allege that they are acting as true Christians.  Does that make Christianity as a whole guilty?  Should every Christian person be judged because of these lunatics?

Similarly, the Satmar Hasidic Jewish group is the culprit of not adhering to COVID rules all over the world.  The big flare-ups of the virus are often in these neighborhoods.  They say that God will decide if they are meant to live or die.  Do you project the views they express as those of the Jewish population at large?  Should all Jews be judged because of the acts of this group?

Your argument is extremely dangerous dude.

Extremism of any kind should be condemned.  I don't care what religion or other reason is given.

The issue we have today is that more and more people are extreme.  It's scary.  


There another one goes again, if you think my view defines an entire religion please. I have had put about 7-8 posts distinguishing the radicals from the actual, I am now getting tired of defending myself with specific posts that people choose to reply too.

At least make an effort reading what people have posted in the group, let alone ignoring my posts which literally aren't even a day old.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:08 am

Nishankly wrote:
Blue wrote:Every individual should be judged based on his own actions, no group should bare responsibility of another’s individual.


Right but where do you draw a line with every individual associating the final act to something similar? That is where is the problem comes back in and that is where religion unfortunately comes back.

and every time I have brought that up, every single post has avoided answering that question in this thread. We cannot separate religion from these mental midgets and that is exactly why the world has a problem with this specific religion right now.

First of all, I didn't ignore your post. Earlier when I first logged in, I was about to reply to all the posters because many have raised many important questions, but I was frankly annoyed by a hateful, ignorant and lying poster who poisoned the thread with his toxic crap and blamed all the world's problems on Tunisia. I mean sure, it's in Tunisia that Covid-19 started. It's our government that hid it from the world and contributed to its spread, claiming over 1 million lives in the process and still counting. It's Tunisia that keeps people in concentration camps. It's Tunisia that is known for forced labor, human rights violations and human trafficking, not to mention a pollution hub.

I mean the nerve he has! And I'm sorry but just like Unique, this guy has said enough already to be permabanned, and yet even though mods have given him chance after chance to grow the fuck up and starts behaving like a human being, he keeps on coming back every single time with more insults. And I'm sorry but I'm not having it, he needs to shut the fuck up.
.
I'm sorry Nish, I'll get back to your posts later.
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Post by sportsczy Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:34 am

I didn't read your posts DoC. My apologies.

Honestly, I don't know what the solution to extremism is. It's becoming more and more the norm rather than the exception. The world is going mad imo.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:50 am

sportsczy wrote:I didn't read your posts DoC.  My apologies.

Honestly, I don't know what the solution to extremism is.  It's becoming more and more the norm rather than the exception.  The world is going mad imo.

No, sports, on the contrary, you've been one of the best posters here. My last comment wasn't aimed at you Smile
Nishankly wrote:No problem, I am here to learn. I have lived with Islam for 26 years and I fucking love their end and how they associate religion to morals and my issue which has developed over the ages is how specifically Islam wants "its rights" in a way they make the news every time. Will be great how someone justifies that.

Okay, could you please expand on the part in bold? I'd like to make sure I know exactly what you mean before answering.

And if this is not the part you wanted me to reply to earlier, it would be very kind of you if you could mention it here and I'll be happy to respond.
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Post by Nishankly Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:05 am

Deleted as I didn't ask the question properly. Still the rest of  the limited questions I raised, I will love an honest reply from someone who has or has grown in an Islamic heavy background,

As someone who was born in a multi religious state, plus parents being in the army, I was never associated to a religion, I grew up knowing how to pray in a temple, mosque, gurdwara and church (sadly we do only 4, considering what we have as a country). I have no problem with people following religion, I just want to understand why someone from Afghanistan, Chad, Senegal, Malaysia, Turkey or Syria will do the same thing and associate Islam to it.
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Post by Warrior Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:12 am

Some pragmatic solutions to extremism are remove religion from public life (except wearing turbans, hijab who cares), ban weapon possession, give longer prison terms at first offense. But it all depends on politics so you can already scratch that off.

So it seems the best we can hope for is that everybody makes an extra effort for world peace. Might as well bet on Crotone winning the league lol. Politicians don't seem to bother the same as normal citizens, they waste a lot of time.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:19 am

Nishankly wrote:Deleted as I didn't ask the question properly. Still the rest of  the limited questions I raised, I will love an honest reply from someone who has or has grown in an Islamic heavy background,

As someone who was born in a multi religious state, plus parents being in the army, I was never associated to a religion, I grew up knowing how to pray in a temple, mosque, gurdwara and church (sadly we do only 4, considering what we have as a country). I have no problem with people following religion, I just want to understand why someone from Afghanistan, Chad, Senegal, Malaysia, Turkey or Syria will do the same thing and associate Islam to it.

If I have understood you correctly, what you're asking is, why can't people just be religious without putting a stamp on it?

If this is what you're asking (and please correct if I'm wrong), then the answer is easy. Your parents, the environment you grew up in and even your country play a part in shaping up your religious views. Since we're talking specifically about Islam here. The striking majority of Muslims around the world are Sunnis, then comes the Shias who are not as many as the Sunnis but still a big number, and then comes what we call the Wahabists .

Sunnis and Shias are for the most part moderate (there are always some exceptions of course), but most of them are cool. Wahabism on the other hand insists on a literal interpretation of the Koran and have very radical views. So radical that they consider the other two (Sunnis and Shias) to be infidels and must be killed just like the rest. So Al-Qaida, ISIS and pretty much all the terrorist organizations you know of are Wahabi Jihadi.

Since the prophet's death, there have been many sects within Islam, all of them are misleading. All of them but one. Here's what he said:

My Ummah [Muslims] will divide into 73 sects, all of them in the hellfire except one.

This is what I mean by "not everybody with a beard shouting Allahou Akbar is necessarily a Muslim or fighting for Islam".
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Post by Myesyats Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:33 am

Blue wrote:Every individual should be judged based on his own actions, no group should bare responsibility of another’s individual.

Surely, but if there are large-scale protests over several countries one could assume that it is the will of a big part of the population.

Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting - Page 24 123378619_942568396269607_8229155655838131797_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=2&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=_SQvX3kNpvQAX-Vkhib&_nc_ht=scontent.fpoz2-1


Beheading senior citizens is freedom of expression to these people?
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Post by FennecFox7 Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:07 am

I’m gonna repeat what sports and I said.. these tensions have been around for hundreds of years.

Do not believe the media. It’s not about Islam. It’s about gang violence and losers in the banuielle (French ghetto). It’s about Algerians/Moroccans/Tunisians living in the equivalent of a glorified section 8 housing with unchecked loser mentality and systemically being oppressed

You want real racism in your face? Try being NA and living in France.

The media doesn’t want to talk about it because it’s a whole can of worms that exposes the extreme rights grip on French society.


That being said, I am tired of the retaliations and the violence. It’s not right and it makes me sad to see this. Education is the solution. I came to America as my parents did and we all have successful lives. I’m an RN working as a phlebotomist in my last years of school, my mom is an RN, my dad is a software engineer, we are normal people who want to be successful and we are not defending these horrific acts.
I don’t know one poor person of Algerian descent in America. None. Zero.

France is a beautiful country with a rich culture. I wish the hate would stop so we could all live good lives.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:48 pm

Myesyats wrote:
Blue wrote:Every individual should be judged based on his own actions, no group should bare responsibility of another’s individual.

Surely, but if there are large-scale protests over several countries one could assume that it is the will of a big part of the population.

Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting - Page 24 123378619_942568396269607_8229155655838131797_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=2&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=_SQvX3kNpvQAX-Vkhib&_nc_ht=scontent.fpoz2-1


Beheading senior citizens is freedom of expression to these people?

First of all, we need to make a clear differentiation between the people you're referring to. Basically we have three categories of Muslims here:

1. Moderate: those who don't really care about the cartoons and understand that other people don't have (nor should they) adhere to what they themselves see as sacred. They practice their faith privately and respect the constitution and secularness of other countries.

2. Those who don't agree with the cartoons, get very upset by it, but don't and never would resort to violence and the killing of innocents over it.

3. Those who get very upset by it and resort to violence to hit back.

Now, it's clear to me and anybody with half a brain that most Muslims fall in the first and second category. There have been thousands of conservative Muslims in countries around the world that have held protests to vent their angrer over the caricatures and Macron's speech, and yet only three or 4 (who aren't even Muslims by the way) decided to act on it through violence.

Now, we can all agree that even one victim, just ONE, is already one-too-many, but the point I'm trying to put forth is that it's not Islam that is responsible here since clearly the striking majority are peaceful. It's the actions of a fucking, evil psychopath led and financed by terrorist cells implanted all over the world whose sole purpose is make the entire world hate Islam and Muslims.

Just ask yourself one question: who's the biggest loser in the eyes of the world every time a heinous crime is done in the name of Islam? It's the Muslims themselves who will have the face the consequences, hatred and further stigmatization.

This is why, Muslims, more than anybody else, wants this to fucking end. They want these fucking thugs to stop killing in the name of our religion and dragging its name through the mud. I have had it up to here with this. There's nothing more frustrating and unfair than being a stand-up citizen all your life only to see later that you're being blamed for something you didn't commit nor support.
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Post by Myesyats Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:59 pm

I don't remember which thread was it but we already discussed this. Surveys show the notion that "violence is often justified against those who disrespect the religion" is very popular in many majority muslim countries.

These are not just a few individuals in between, it's a large scale issue. Of course individuals carry out the actual acts of violence but the feelings are shared by many so this is an ideological problem that needs to be sorted out within these countries. If they come to France and create secluded neighborhoods of their own, it's already too late.
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Post by Pedram Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:21 pm

https://www.dw.com/en/lyon-shooting-orthodox-priest-seriously-wounded/a-55459953
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Post by sportsczy Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:56 pm

Myesyats wrote:I don't remember which thread was it but we already discussed this. Surveys show the notion that "violence is often justified against those who disrespect the religion"  is very popular in many majority muslim countries.

These are not just a few individuals in between, it's a large scale issue. Of course individuals carry out the actual acts of violence but the feelings are shared by many so this is an ideological problem that needs to be sorted out within these countries. If they come to France and create secluded neighborhoods of their own, it's already too late.

They didn't create secluded neighborhoods of their own.  They were/are put there.  It's similar to "the projects" in the US.  There was no effort made to integrate these people... they're forgotten once processed.  No opportunities.  No jobs.

Of course, it's a hotbed for criminality and gang violence.  People are forced to band together in order to survive.  You're stereotyped and shunned by mainstream society in France... what are your options?

A deep resentment existed as a result of the colonial history of France.  That resentment turned to hatred given how they're treated...  resentment and hatred = perfect opportunity for fundamentalists to recruit thugs.  

Even in this awful environment, the great majority of the people in these neighborhoods want nothing to do with the fundamentalists.  HOWEVER, they aren't going to lift a single finger to stop it or help the French authorities.  That's on France.  The country never made these people feel like a French citizen. They feel no loyalty or responsibility towards the country.

Don't blame the victims. Blame the system. You can't expect people that you oppressed to help you.
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Post by Adit Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:04 am

He clearly said countries ,that include muslim majority countries who are ruled in islamic way.

Most of the muslim majority countries themselves support death penalty for apostates and blasphemy. That has nothing to do with colonialism but just plain hate originating from scripture .

Just because you no longer take the gods word as true doesn't mean that there are many who consider it as divine words.

The crickets when discussing about the death penalty for blasphemy as the elephant in the room is disgusting and you will only realize this when it happens in your country and neighborhood.
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Post by The Demon of Carthage Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:42 am

Here we go again with people speaking on my behalf. I would really love to meet those people who conduct those surveys.

When I hear people claim that most Muslim majority countries support the death penalty for apostasy and blasphemy, I don't remember anybody coming up to me and asking me about it. Where did they go and who the fuck did they interview? Because I'm pretty sure I could create a similar survey about any topic and give you exactly the answer you want to hear by leaving only the answers that best suit your preconceived views.

If we killed people for leaving Islam or blasphemy, the streets of Tunisia would be empty. And I'm pretty sure there are many other Muslim majority countries that don't apply those laws.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:02 am

Blue wrote:Every individual should be judged based on his own actions, no group should bare responsibility of another’s individual.


People are not only individuals

Just a general point

but I think @futbol said it best, people who seriously expect, or REQUIRE, anyone to apologize or comment on something someone else does just because they share something that's shared among billions of people is completely out of their minds
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Post by Nishankly Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:49 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
Blue wrote:Every individual should be judged based on his own actions, no group should bare responsibility of another’s individual.


People are not only individuals

Just a general point

but I think @futbol said it best, people who seriously expect, or REQUIRE, anyone to apologize or comment on something someone else does just because they share something that's shared among billions of people is completely out of their minds


Very true, I am probably part of this from my posts so I make it clear, my questions have been directed towards everyone and not just specific people.
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Post by Blue Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:31 pm

Myesyats wrote:I don't remember which thread was it but we already discussed this. Surveys show the notion that "violence is often justified against those who disrespect the religion" is very popular in many majority muslim countries.

These are not just a few individuals in between, it's a large scale issue. Of course individuals carry out the actual acts of violence but the feelings are shared by many so this is an ideological problem that needs to be sorted out within these countries. If they come to France and create secluded neighborhoods of their own, it's already too late.


Many people believe violence in the name of country, also believe collateral damage is acceptable.

In the US data collected on violence and homicides, it is unfounded that they are violent group in fact data suggest very much the opposite.

Regardless of the data, I don’t think it is helpful to make judgement on people. I reject grouping and best judge individuals on their own merit.

Kaz justifies his racism because he believes data backs his belief about people.

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Post by Blue Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:15 am

Hapless_Hans wrote:
Blue wrote:Every individual should be judged based on his own actions, no group should bare responsibility of another’s individual.


People are not only individuals

Just a general point

but I think @futbol said it best, people who seriously expect, or REQUIRE, anyone to apologize or comment on something someone else does just because they share something that's shared among billions of people is completely out of their minds


That plays a role the division, no other block of people are asked the same question and scrutiny. You are basically equating them with outsiders by wanting them to chose between them or us, religion or country. It escalates tension and division unnecessary.

I think people forget the world before 9-11, I know it is the case in America and I am sure it is similar in other western countries. Before 9-11 being Muslim was never this identity that is today, before you were looked by your nationality or country. If you were Iraqis, Iranian, Egyptian, etc that is the identity they had of you. After 9-11 if you were Muslim that didn’t matter the country or origin of yours. You were Muslim and you had to prove your loyalty and prove that you were not one of those violent one.

It is absolutely amazing the irrationality that follows, how some people actions could be casted on over billions of people. How some violence we cast and ask the question if these people are inherently or ideologically violent.

This is why I always say in the war against terrorism, they won because of how irrationally we reacted. We divided our Muslim residents and started 2 wars with countries that had nothing to do with it.
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Post by Nishankly Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:10 pm

Kabul now, storming a university and a bazaar. Do we still associate them every week to mad men?
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Post by Nishankly Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:37 pm

As I typed that post, now Vienna. I cannot disembed this from a religion or its grassroot teachings to these "mad men" who will kill innocents kids in a school in Pakistan or behead a priest in France for the same belief. I hope you guys can explain why I should remove this from religion and this isn't about defending the values of the religion, the world wants solutions to this problem, not explanations.
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