Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
If you guys can't be bothered to read one page's worth of opinion, you probably shouldn't pretend to be discussing things.
VivaStPauli- Fan Favorite
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
S wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30812155
Interesting perspective from various media
Even countries like Russia and China that are not Muslim are speaking against Charlie Hebdo.
This thing is quickly turning into a west vs east clash.
Pedram- Fan Favorite
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
WILL “moderate Muslims” finally “speak up” against their militant coreligionists? People around the world have asked (but, as in the past, have not all seriously examined) this question since last week’s horrific attacks on the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo and on a kosher supermarket in Paris.
In fact, Muslim statesmen, clerics and intellectuals have added their voices to condemnations of terror by leaders around the world. But they must undertake another essential task: Address and reinterpret Islam’s traditional take on “blasphemy,” or insult to the sacred.
The Paris terrorists were apparently fueled by the zeal to punish blasphemy, and fervor for the same cause has bred militancy in the name of Islam in various other incidents, ranging from Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini’s fatwa against the writer Salman Rushdie in 1989 to the threats and protests against the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten for publishing cartoons lampooning the Prophet Muhammad in 2005.
Mockery of Muhammad, actual or perceived, has been at the heart of nearly all of these controversies over blasphemy.
This might seem unremarkable at first, but there is something curious about it, for the Prophet Muhammad is not the only sacred figure in Islam. The Quran praises other prophets — such as Abraham, Moses and Jesus — and even tells Muslims to “make no distinction” between these messengers of God. Yet for some reason, Islamist extremists seem to obsess only about the Prophet Muhammad.
Even more curiously, mockery of God — what one would expect to see as the most outrageous blasphemy — seems to have escaped their attention as well. Satirical magazines such as Charlie Hebdo have run cartoons ridiculing God (in the Jewish, Christian and Muslim contexts), but they were targeted with violence only when they ridiculed the Prophet Muhammad.
Of course, this is not to say extremists should threaten and harm cartoonists for more diverse theological reasons; obviously, they should not target them at all. But the exclusive focus on the Prophet Muhammad is worth pondering. One obvious explanation is that while God and the other prophets are also sacred for Judaism and Christianity, the Prophet Muhammad is sacred only for Muslims. In other words, the zeal comes not from merely respect for the sacred, but from militancy for what’s sacred to us — us being the community of Muslims. So the unique sensitivity around Muhammad seems to be a case of religious nationalism, with its focus on the earthly community — rather than of true faith, whose main focus should be the divine.
Still, this religious nationalism is guided by religious law — Shariah — that includes clauses about punishing blasphemy as a deadly sin. It is thus of vital importance that Muslim scholars courageously, even audaciously, address this issue today. They can begin by acknowledging that, while Shariah is rooted in the divine, the overwhelming majority of its injunctions are man-made, partly reflecting the values and needs of the seventh to 12th centuries — when no part of the world was liberal, and other religions, such as Christianity, also considered blasphemy a capital crime.
The only source in Islamic law that all Muslims accept indisputably is the Quran. And, conspicuously, the Quran decrees no earthly punishment for blasphemy — or for apostasy (abandonment or renunciation of the faith), a related concept. Nor, for that matter, does the Quran command stoning, female circumcision or a ban on fine arts. All these doctrinal innovations, as it were, were brought into the literature of Islam as medieval scholars interpreted it, according to the norms of their time and milieu.
Tellingly, severe punishments for blasphemy and apostasy appeared when increasingly despotic Muslim empires needed to find a religious justification to eliminate political opponents.
One of the earliest “blasphemers” in Islam was the pious scholar Ghaylan al-Dimashqi, who was executed in the 8th century by the Umayyad Empire. His main “heresy” was to insist that rulers did not have the right to regard their power as “a gift of God,” and that they had to be aware of their responsibility to the people.
Before all that politically motivated expansion and toughening of Shariah, though, the Quran told early Muslims, who routinely faced the mockery of their faith by pagans: “God has told you in the Book that when you hear God’s revelations disbelieved in and mocked at, do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them.”
Just “do not sit with them” — that is the response the Quran suggests for mockery. Not violence. Not even censorship.
Wise Muslim religious leaders from the entire world would do Islam a great favor if they preached and reiterated such a nonviolent and nonoppressive stance in the face of insults against Islam. That sort of instruction could also help their more intolerant coreligionists understand that rage is a sign of nothing but immaturity. The power of any faith comes not from its coercion of critics and dissenters. It comes from the moral integrity and the intellectual strength of its believers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/opinion/islams-problem-with-blasphemy.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region
In fact, Muslim statesmen, clerics and intellectuals have added their voices to condemnations of terror by leaders around the world. But they must undertake another essential task: Address and reinterpret Islam’s traditional take on “blasphemy,” or insult to the sacred.
The Paris terrorists were apparently fueled by the zeal to punish blasphemy, and fervor for the same cause has bred militancy in the name of Islam in various other incidents, ranging from Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini’s fatwa against the writer Salman Rushdie in 1989 to the threats and protests against the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten for publishing cartoons lampooning the Prophet Muhammad in 2005.
Mockery of Muhammad, actual or perceived, has been at the heart of nearly all of these controversies over blasphemy.
This might seem unremarkable at first, but there is something curious about it, for the Prophet Muhammad is not the only sacred figure in Islam. The Quran praises other prophets — such as Abraham, Moses and Jesus — and even tells Muslims to “make no distinction” between these messengers of God. Yet for some reason, Islamist extremists seem to obsess only about the Prophet Muhammad.
Even more curiously, mockery of God — what one would expect to see as the most outrageous blasphemy — seems to have escaped their attention as well. Satirical magazines such as Charlie Hebdo have run cartoons ridiculing God (in the Jewish, Christian and Muslim contexts), but they were targeted with violence only when they ridiculed the Prophet Muhammad.
Of course, this is not to say extremists should threaten and harm cartoonists for more diverse theological reasons; obviously, they should not target them at all. But the exclusive focus on the Prophet Muhammad is worth pondering. One obvious explanation is that while God and the other prophets are also sacred for Judaism and Christianity, the Prophet Muhammad is sacred only for Muslims. In other words, the zeal comes not from merely respect for the sacred, but from militancy for what’s sacred to us — us being the community of Muslims. So the unique sensitivity around Muhammad seems to be a case of religious nationalism, with its focus on the earthly community — rather than of true faith, whose main focus should be the divine.
Still, this religious nationalism is guided by religious law — Shariah — that includes clauses about punishing blasphemy as a deadly sin. It is thus of vital importance that Muslim scholars courageously, even audaciously, address this issue today. They can begin by acknowledging that, while Shariah is rooted in the divine, the overwhelming majority of its injunctions are man-made, partly reflecting the values and needs of the seventh to 12th centuries — when no part of the world was liberal, and other religions, such as Christianity, also considered blasphemy a capital crime.
The only source in Islamic law that all Muslims accept indisputably is the Quran. And, conspicuously, the Quran decrees no earthly punishment for blasphemy — or for apostasy (abandonment or renunciation of the faith), a related concept. Nor, for that matter, does the Quran command stoning, female circumcision or a ban on fine arts. All these doctrinal innovations, as it were, were brought into the literature of Islam as medieval scholars interpreted it, according to the norms of their time and milieu.
Tellingly, severe punishments for blasphemy and apostasy appeared when increasingly despotic Muslim empires needed to find a religious justification to eliminate political opponents.
One of the earliest “blasphemers” in Islam was the pious scholar Ghaylan al-Dimashqi, who was executed in the 8th century by the Umayyad Empire. His main “heresy” was to insist that rulers did not have the right to regard their power as “a gift of God,” and that they had to be aware of their responsibility to the people.
Before all that politically motivated expansion and toughening of Shariah, though, the Quran told early Muslims, who routinely faced the mockery of their faith by pagans: “God has told you in the Book that when you hear God’s revelations disbelieved in and mocked at, do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them.”
Just “do not sit with them” — that is the response the Quran suggests for mockery. Not violence. Not even censorship.
Wise Muslim religious leaders from the entire world would do Islam a great favor if they preached and reiterated such a nonviolent and nonoppressive stance in the face of insults against Islam. That sort of instruction could also help their more intolerant coreligionists understand that rage is a sign of nothing but immaturity. The power of any faith comes not from its coercion of critics and dissenters. It comes from the moral integrity and the intellectual strength of its believers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/14/opinion/islams-problem-with-blasphemy.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region
Last edited by sportsczy on Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
sportsczy- Ballon d'Or Contender
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
I thought that the condemnation of the terror attacks by the muslim community was pretty vocal, at least in Germany it hit the main stream media pretty hard, I don't think anyone here's under the assumption that the muslim mainstream did not condemn these attacks, and I assumed it was much the same in the rest of Europe.
Am I wrong?
Am I wrong?
VivaStPauli- Fan Favorite
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Russian and Chinese governments... the bastions of democracy and freedom of expression. Yes, that is tragic and surprisingPedram wrote:S wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30812155
Interesting perspective from various media
Even countries like Russia and China that are not Muslim are speaking against Charlie Hebdo.
This thing is quickly turning into a west vs east clash.
sportsczy- Ballon d'Or Contender
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
VivaStPauli wrote:I thought that the condemnation of the terror attacks by the muslim community was pretty vocal, at least in Germany it hit the main stream media pretty hard, I don't think anyone here's under the assumption that the muslim mainstream did not condemn these attacks, and I assumed it was much the same in the rest of Europe.
Am I wrong?
By en large they have said "we condemn both the attack and the illustrations, which we find to be insulting" and the media has focused mostly on this second part of the sentence.
But the media is also covering stories like this:
"80% of Muslims in French schoolchildren neighborhood refused to participate in 1 minute of silence"
"I'm not saying what the terrorists did was good, but they shouldn't have been doing it anyway"
"It was staged by the US, France and Israel to give Israel more power"
http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2015/01/14/377230249/some-french-muslims-see-conspiracies-in-paris-shootings
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
DuringTheWar wrote:rwo power wrote:Well, it was a serious point to be made against the demands of creationists to teach creationism at schools. And by the way, why is it ridiculous? Can you show convincing proof that your religion is more valid than a Pastafarian's religion?DuringTheWar wrote:The spaghetti monster thing is itself satire, right? To say that is as serious a religion as any other is beyond ridiculous.
What has Pastafarianism contributed culturally to rival the single biggest source of cultural inspiration in the western world?
What does pastafarianism offer spiritually? What philosophical questions does it attempt to deal with? What to put on your rigatoni?
Pastafarianism offers spiritually the same things as Christianity does , living righteously and without sin , just under a different light than Christianity. Attempts to deal with the same philosophical questions Christianity does , convincing us about the true god . Imo FSM is best true god .
What to put on my rigatoni is a matter of religion , you are mocking religious beliefs with what you said . Any true Pastafarian should be offended right now , you shouldn't be allowed to mock religion or its beliefs and practices . Please show respect for their religious beliefs and ways , that's a liturgy you are mocking. What they put in their oven is as serious to Pastafarians as is for Christians what kind of wine they need for their own liturgy , to hypotheticaly cannibalise on their Jewish zombie God's blood and flesh . You should respect that as you respect any other irrational practices religions hold sacred and holy , otherwise you're a hypocrite . You want respect for one religion , you will respect every religion , Pastafarianism included .
I put this part in spoiler because i think talking about what's the biggest source of cultural inspiration for the western world isn't exactly for this topic.
- Spoiler:
And please , give us a break. Christianity is the biggest source of cultural inspiration in the western world just because it parasited on so many cultures ?? So the hellenic and roman civilizations weren't the biggest source of cultural inspiration for the West? The heresy of Judaism that was brought to the west by goat fkers and illetarate peasants and expanded by the sword and oppresion physical and imaginary , is the western world's biggest source of cultural inspiration ??
So , democracy , arts , theatre , tragedy , architecture , literature , satire , philosophy , orgies and much , much more , all that are based on the biggest source of cultural inspiration for the western world that is Christianity ? Oh was that Christianity ?? Was that the culture which inspired the west to produce theatre and arts and philosophy ? That was them we followed and based the current western culture these days??
I've seen apologetics before , i don't want to call you revisionist because something tells me you know your history , but ffs , you are of one the best i've encountered. Bear in mind i do not whatsoever deprive or deny Christianity's fair share ; oh it contributed it's fair share on many fields , but biggest source of cultural inspiration for the western world it never was and never will be . Big source of cultural inspiration , yes . Under the light of history however , it gets crystal clear what the biggest source of cultural inspiration for the western world has been , let alone how Christianity came to be such a cultural inspiration.
Pastafarianism is best true religion , killed 0 people so far , caused 0 wars so far and has contributed something of immense value to the western world , in certain places young ones don't have to know about creationism , which goes against the scientific method and science in general . Just by that , it has done and will continue to do much more for the western world than Christianity ever did and without a nose getting broken. It's all a matter of perspective really . Some see them rollin and they hatin , only because they are noobs .
Dante- Fan Favorite
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
I am interested in reading few of Pastafarianism scriptures Dante. Can you provide any which "offers spiritually the same things as Christianity"? Also interested in what kind of Philosophical questions Pastafarianism raises which great Philosophers such as Locke influenced by religious beliefs couldn't?
Thanks
Thanks
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
RG pls . If you want to learn about Pastafarianism you can do so on your own , you don't need me about that.
In any case . If i must be really really serious , i won't seriously debate which religion influenced the western world more , or if their true message differs in essense , ok . But that's about it really , personally and before this goes totally out of topic , these two religions are equal to me . Anyone that finds that ridiculous or whatever i honestly don't have the slightest issue about it. I don't see one as more serious than the other , just because the older one influenced more people . Who's influenced and why isn't why i see them as equal either , or why i take them both as seriously as i do.
Pastafarianism is a parody of Christianity . But it's still religion and those who ask for / demand respect for their religion not to be satirized , have to respect Pastafarianism too . They are as much a religion as Christianity is.
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Dante wrote:DuringTheWar wrote:rwo power wrote:
Well, it was a serious point to be made against the demands of creationists to teach creationism at schools. And by the way, why is it ridiculous? Can you show convincing proof that your religion is more valid than a Pastafarian's religion?
What has Pastafarianism contributed culturally to rival the single biggest source of cultural inspiration in the western world?
What does pastafarianism offer spiritually? What philosophical questions does it attempt to deal with? What to put on your rigatoni?
Pastafarianism offers spiritually the same things as Christianity does , living righteously and without sin , just under a different light than Christianity. Attempts to deal with the same philosophical questions Christianity does , convincing us about the true god . Imo FSM is best true god .
What to put on my rigatoni is a matter of religion , you are mocking religious beliefs with what you said . Any true Pastafarian should be offended right now , you shouldn't be allowed to mock religion or its beliefs and practices . Please show respect for their religious beliefs and ways , that's a liturgy you are mocking. What they put in their oven is as serious to Pastafarians as is for Christians what kind of wine they need for their own liturgy , to hypotheticaly cannibalise on their Jewish zombie God's blood and flesh . You should respect that as you respect any other irrational practices religions hold sacred and holy , otherwise you're a hypocrite . You want respect for one religion , you will respect every religion , Pastafarianism included .I put this part in spoiler because i think talking about what's the biggest source of cultural inspiration for the western world isn't exactly for this topic.
- Spoiler:
And please , give us a break. Christianity is the biggest source of cultural inspiration in the western world just because it parasited on so many cultures ?? So the hellenic and roman civilizations weren't the biggest source of cultural inspiration for the West? The heresy of Judaism that was brought to the west by goat fkers and illetarate peasants and expanded by the sword and oppresion physical and imaginary , is the western world's biggest source of cultural inspiration ??
So , democracy , arts , theatre , tragedy , architecture , literature , satire , philosophy , orgies and much , much more , all that are based on the biggest source of cultural inspiration for the western world that is Christianity ? Oh was that Christianity ?? Was that the culture which inspired the west to produce theatre and arts and philosophy ? That was them we followed and based the current western culture these days??
I've seen apologetics before , i don't want to call you revisionist because something tells me you know your history , but ffs , you are of one the best i've encountered. Bear in mind i do not whatsoever deprive or deny Christianity's fair share ; oh it contributed it's fair share on many fields , but biggest source of cultural inspiration for the western world it never was and never will be . Big source of cultural inspiration , yes . Under the light of history however , it gets crystal clear what the biggest source of cultural inspiration for the western world has been , let alone how Christianity came to be such a cultural inspiration.
Pastafarianism is best true religion , killed 0 people so far , caused 0 wars so far and has contributed something of immense value to the western world , in certain places young ones don't have to know about creationism , which goes against the scientific method and science in general . Just by that , it has done and will continue to do much more for the western world than Christianity ever did and without a nose getting broken. It's all a matter of perspective really . Some see them rollin and they hatin , only because they are noobs .
Pastafarianism is satire, satire of religion, or creationism in particular, I don't know the specifics. If we are to treat the satire as a serious religion, that's very ironic, and I guess defeats the point of it existing in the first place. I bet the bloke who created that "religion" did not intend to brainwash people into actually believing in a flying monster made out of spaghetti.
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Awww come on, Mormonism and Scientology are just as much satire of religion and they don't openly get called that.
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Shed wrote:
Or, if we are going to start playing the 'let's ban anything that offends people' game, how about when the subjects of the particular piece of satire in question here stop subjugating women, prosecuting rape victims, hanging gays, executing apostates and murdering non-believers, the rest of people will consider curbing their criticism of the ideology in whose name and by whose injunction all of those atrocities are committed in the first place? Sound fair?
You're right, because of course it is me and the other 1.7 billion Muslims around the world that do all these terrible things on a regular basis. Now I understand why everyone should cynically attack my religion with the full support of the West.
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Yet while nobody moves half a finger to save the entire gender of "female" from quasi-slavery, it is apparently of paramount importance to stop a bunch of cartoonists from drawing images of an theoretical person that nobody would ever see, unless they made a particular effort.
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
And don't give me that "minority" shit, a minority can't keep an entire gender disenfranchised.
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Which is why the entire female gender is not disenfrsnchized from Muslim community...
And don't play the "you have better things to do" card. Why are you on an online message board when you could be curing cancer?
And don't play the "you have better things to do" card. Why are you on an online message board when you could be curing cancer?
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ffs i don't believe it's real or anything
just trying to make a point here . People take it seriously , in a sense that , if you allow XyZ religion said rights and benefits and i don't know what else irrationalities they are allowed , then you will allow FSM the same too. You demand respect for your religion? I demand respect for Pastafarianism. You want respect and freedom of speech and satire not to touch one religion , then you cannot touch any . It started with creationism yes , but it's not like you can't use it for other examples too. It's pretty besides the point what it's purpose is , it's officialy a religion somewhere in the world.
In any case , last post on FSM , it's getting ridiculous we took it that much out of topic. Atheists and agnostics having fun and taking their role as Pastafarians to the same levels other religious people do , is to make a point in a civilised manner against certain things about religion. It's satire , they are not there to really bring the system down , but to raise eyebrows and make people think. It just started with creationism but these people have more to say . They were also recognised in Poland recently
just trying to make a point here . People take it seriously , in a sense that , if you allow XyZ religion said rights and benefits and i don't know what else irrationalities they are allowed , then you will allow FSM the same too. You demand respect for your religion? I demand respect for Pastafarianism. You want respect and freedom of speech and satire not to touch one religion , then you cannot touch any . It started with creationism yes , but it's not like you can't use it for other examples too. It's pretty besides the point what it's purpose is , it's officialy a religion somewhere in the world.
In any case , last post on FSM , it's getting ridiculous we took it that much out of topic. Atheists and agnostics having fun and taking their role as Pastafarians to the same levels other religious people do , is to make a point in a civilised manner against certain things about religion. It's satire , they are not there to really bring the system down , but to raise eyebrows and make people think. It just started with creationism but these people have more to say . They were also recognised in Poland recently
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Basically one of the main targets of radical Islamic terrorism is to push the Western population to hate and rejecting every form of Islam, so as to radicaliz the conflict.
In this way, Muslims will feel theirself even more marginalized and the terrorists' ranks will increase. These are words said and repeated by former terrorist forces' trainers, by political analysts and by who has a pragmatic view about it .
tbh many behave exactly as the terrorists expect , playing into their hands.
In this way, Muslims will feel theirself even more marginalized and the terrorists' ranks will increase. These are words said and repeated by former terrorist forces' trainers, by political analysts and by who has a pragmatic view about it .
tbh many behave exactly as the terrorists expect , playing into their hands.
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Dante wrote:
RG pls . If you want to learn about Pastafarianism you can do so on your own , you don't need me about that.
In any case . If i must be really really serious , i won't seriously debate which religion influenced the western world more , or if their true message differs in essense , ok . But that's about it really , personally and before this goes totally out of topic , these two religions are equal to me . Anyone that finds that ridiculous or whatever i honestly don't have the slightest issue about it. I don't see one as more serious than the other , just because the older one influenced more people . Who's influenced and why isn't why i see them as equal either , or why i take them both as seriously as i do.
Pastafarianism is a parody of Christianity . But it's still religion and those who ask for / demand respect for their religion not to be satirized , have to respect Pastafarianism too . They are as much a religion as Christianity is.
Seriously though, bidone d'oro is pastafarianism to balon d'or which is Christianity imo. You are more than welcome to consider them as equal as most atheists would. But despite what atrocities religious people(not religion itself) have committed, religion has also given equal good to those who wanted to use it for good. People genuinely do believe that life is worth better in serving others than themselves which is derived from their religious believes and those people being mocked is extremely distasteful even if it's under the law. Same goes to mocking those people who strongly believe in obesity.
Freedom of speech allows satire to exist, that is true. The french satirical magazine can print whatever they want if it comes within the law, which is also true. But to create such hatred between two diverse groups(wasn't their intention) which will intensify over the next 20 years with more incidents like this. I am not sure if it was worth it. There was never a problem with freedom of speech in France as the incident is being treated like. Those terrorists would have attacked somewhere else for entirely different reasons just because they are terrorists. Don't you find it weird that moderate religious people never seem to have a problem with these satirical images/mockery? But now they will, just because they are being targeted by the opposing groups(not to be blamed) and they are being rustled from their nests. Which, obviously will create further incidents.
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Let's not pretend that every Muslim woman is disenfranchised... Catholic women still can't even become priests or have a position of real leadership within the church.VivaStPauli wrote:And don't give me that "minority" shit, a minority can't keep an entire gender disenfranchised.
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Anyway the radical Islam has a precise identity : the Wahhabism.
A radical vision of Islam, the state religion in Saudi Arabia. Al-Qaeda was born from there, the " self-styled " Islamic state as well.
We cannot mention the fact that the West, in name of " pecunia non olet " and the principle of profit to reign on everything it plays dumb about the fact there are Saudits behind it . Of course it doesn't mean the Western must bomb Riad tomorrow , but it should make clear to these people, always messed (just seeing how it is organized their "state") that the situation cannot longer be tolerated.
I don't care if American fighter planes to bomb Saddam departed from Arabia,
the West can no longer afford to keep a foot in both camps in the name of capitalism and profit.
The West ( and unfortunately Europe is tied hands and feet because of Bush father and jr . and for other choices definitely not farsighted ) must assume own responsibilities.
The Saudi Arabia can't be considered anymore an ally of the West.
A radical vision of Islam, the state religion in Saudi Arabia. Al-Qaeda was born from there, the " self-styled " Islamic state as well.
We cannot mention the fact that the West, in name of " pecunia non olet " and the principle of profit to reign on everything it plays dumb about the fact there are Saudits behind it . Of course it doesn't mean the Western must bomb Riad tomorrow , but it should make clear to these people, always messed (just seeing how it is organized their "state") that the situation cannot longer be tolerated.
I don't care if American fighter planes to bomb Saddam departed from Arabia,
the West can no longer afford to keep a foot in both camps in the name of capitalism and profit.
The West ( and unfortunately Europe is tied hands and feet because of Bush father and jr . and for other choices definitely not farsighted ) must assume own responsibilities.
The Saudi Arabia can't be considered anymore an ally of the West.
Robespierre- World Class Contributor
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
It's obvious you're concerned with the greater good RG and that's commentable . Of course when it comes to that , we should always take into consideration what we say , or what we do. I understand that , i really do . Mind you and i want to believe you understand this , people don't just wake up in the morning JUST to upset religious persons or religions in general. When there's satire or critique , there's most always a reason why. You don't see the French satirizing Buddha for instance , that's because they don't have a good reason maybe?? Similarly and personally , i am not sure how i pass my image to you (all) , but ironicaly i've found myself defending Muslims against Christians at times . I'm not mindlessly against religion . I want them to have their mosques or what they need to pray here in Greece and i have defended them for this , for the obvious right the Christians have ffs , i want that for the Muslims who live here. Just as i have no relations to anything Muslim and defend them on this , i will satirize them if i must. I will mock them if i must but most importantly , where i feel i must. Not just because , or just to upset people. And most atheists and critiques against religion base their case on arguments , it's not mindless insults or what have you.
The 2nd part of your post i find it really hard to disagree about pretty much anything. But since you are asking what's really worth , i'd still say being free to satirize , or speak against , or what have you against Islam (since that's what we talk here) . In the grand scheme of things , to what we will leave to the next generations , it does worth more than avoiding conflict. I understand what i say here tbh , it's not just words. I don't know the full consequences these events will have in the future.
But as far as i am concerned , freedom is above all else and this includes religions too , all of them and their people . The greatest ideal we have , which i am not willing to concede in the slightest in about any of its forms , for pretty much any reason , not just religion . I think it was worth it , knowing full well what it cost. Or what it may cost in the future.
The 2nd part of your post i find it really hard to disagree about pretty much anything. But since you are asking what's really worth , i'd still say being free to satirize , or speak against , or what have you against Islam (since that's what we talk here) . In the grand scheme of things , to what we will leave to the next generations , it does worth more than avoiding conflict. I understand what i say here tbh , it's not just words. I don't know the full consequences these events will have in the future.
But as far as i am concerned , freedom is above all else and this includes religions too , all of them and their people . The greatest ideal we have , which i am not willing to concede in the slightest in about any of its forms , for pretty much any reason , not just religion . I think it was worth it , knowing full well what it cost. Or what it may cost in the future.
Dante- Fan Favorite
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Let's not pretend that every Muslim woman is disenfranchised... Catholic women still can't even become priests or have a position of real leadership within the church.VivaStPauli wrote:And don't give me that "minority" shit, a minority can't keep an entire gender disenfranchised.
And they will never have either. These are patriarchal for a reason . Women will never have a say , or any kind of power in religion , not in any of the common Abrahamic ones anyway .
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Let's not pretend that every Muslim woman is disenfranchised... Catholic women still can't even become priests or have a position of real leadership within the church.VivaStPauli wrote:And don't give me that "minority" shit, a minority can't keep an entire gender disenfranchised.
And I don't really expect revolution to start because of my words.
I just think it's worth pointing out that literally everywhere there's a thousand problems more pressing than "there's this tiny paper publishing cartoons", even though some people keep circling back to the argument that the "provocation" was the problem.
You know, it's the "she was dressed provocatively" of international relations. Infuriating.
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Why should Religion be exempt to criticism and mocking. What makes it so special ?
On daily basis, we criticize/mock someone's political ideas, football teams, behaviours, etc. Why not religion ?
Religion is not Race. Religion is a choice. Anything that is a choice is open to be mocked and criticized. Because you DO have control over it. Mockery of religion is one the crucial stages to approaching the next stage of human evolution as the late Mr.Hitchens repeatedly said.
Islam happens to have the most hardcore extremist. In no other religion, people who criticize/mock their religion are openly subject of murder. Let me list you some high profile cases off the top of my head:
1) Book "Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie
- Iran's dictator at the time, Khomeini, ordered for murder of Rushdie and set a prize for it. Ordering "MURDER". An Ayatollah followed by millions of muslims around the world. Openly subjecting an author to death.
- The Japanese translator who translated Rushdie's book to Japanese was assassinated shortly after. (Hitoshi Igarashi)
- The Italian translator of the book was subject of an assassination attempt and stabbed several times and only survived after a long spell at the hospital
2) Dutch film-maker, Theo Van Ghogh was absolute brutally murdered on streets of Amsterdam in 2004, after making a short documentary criticizing Islam. The murder, so disgusting, that after shooting him 7 times, the Jihadist stabbed him in the throat until reaching his cordial spine and left a note on his body , pinned by the knife.
3) Iranian Singer, Shahin Najafi, made a song a couple of years ago mocking an unrealistic story about Shi'aa Imam. 4 Ayatollahs in Iran immediately ordered a fatwa to kill him. He's since escaped to Germany and lives there. He's under open fire due to fatwa of those Aytaollah who are followed by MILLIONS of people. The head of the religion...those who are worshiped by ships
4) Just a few days ago, a Saudi blogger was arrested for criticizing some behaviours of prophet Mohammed. He got 10 years in prison and 1000 lashes !!!!
People who've seen me enough, know that I don't give a rats ass about any religion. They are all scam IMO. but It looks like Islam is the most intolerant by far and the one most reactive (Aggressively) to criticism and mockery. I don't know where this comes from...
Anyways. It's amazing that people still follow stuff that from thousands of years ago. The book and stuff designed to operate societies of those times. To settle disputes. Not in 2014 !! Amazing irony that religion was sent to settle people down and supposedly bring peace and purpose to people's life, and these days it's the absolute biggest constant and tool in murder of millions of people around the world.
The great Hitchens...I'll start an appreciation thread for him when time is right. What a visionary. Kudos to Lenin also for creating the first secular gov't in modern history and the first modern gov't to recognize gay rights.
On daily basis, we criticize/mock someone's political ideas, football teams, behaviours, etc. Why not religion ?
Religion is not Race. Religion is a choice. Anything that is a choice is open to be mocked and criticized. Because you DO have control over it. Mockery of religion is one the crucial stages to approaching the next stage of human evolution as the late Mr.Hitchens repeatedly said.
Islam happens to have the most hardcore extremist. In no other religion, people who criticize/mock their religion are openly subject of murder. Let me list you some high profile cases off the top of my head:
1) Book "Satanic Verses" by Salman Rushdie
- Iran's dictator at the time, Khomeini, ordered for murder of Rushdie and set a prize for it. Ordering "MURDER". An Ayatollah followed by millions of muslims around the world. Openly subjecting an author to death.
- The Japanese translator who translated Rushdie's book to Japanese was assassinated shortly after. (Hitoshi Igarashi)
- The Italian translator of the book was subject of an assassination attempt and stabbed several times and only survived after a long spell at the hospital
2) Dutch film-maker, Theo Van Ghogh was absolute brutally murdered on streets of Amsterdam in 2004, after making a short documentary criticizing Islam. The murder, so disgusting, that after shooting him 7 times, the Jihadist stabbed him in the throat until reaching his cordial spine and left a note on his body , pinned by the knife.
3) Iranian Singer, Shahin Najafi, made a song a couple of years ago mocking an unrealistic story about Shi'aa Imam. 4 Ayatollahs in Iran immediately ordered a fatwa to kill him. He's since escaped to Germany and lives there. He's under open fire due to fatwa of those Aytaollah who are followed by MILLIONS of people. The head of the religion...those who are worshiped by ships
4) Just a few days ago, a Saudi blogger was arrested for criticizing some behaviours of prophet Mohammed. He got 10 years in prison and 1000 lashes !!!!
People who've seen me enough, know that I don't give a rats ass about any religion. They are all scam IMO. but It looks like Islam is the most intolerant by far and the one most reactive (Aggressively) to criticism and mockery. I don't know where this comes from...
Anyways. It's amazing that people still follow stuff that from thousands of years ago. The book and stuff designed to operate societies of those times. To settle disputes. Not in 2014 !! Amazing irony that religion was sent to settle people down and supposedly bring peace and purpose to people's life, and these days it's the absolute biggest constant and tool in murder of millions of people around the world.
The great Hitchens...I'll start an appreciation thread for him when time is right. What a visionary. Kudos to Lenin also for creating the first secular gov't in modern history and the first modern gov't to recognize gay rights.
DeletedUser#1- Fan Favorite
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
I don't really disagree with anything you said except that you made it seem as if every Muslim woman has a terrible time which is simply not the case. Other than that, we are on the same page.VivaStPauli wrote:And I don't really expect revolution to start because of my words.
I just think it's worth pointing out that literally everywhere there's a thousand problems more pressing than "there's this tiny paper publishing cartoons", even though some people keep circling back to the argument that the "provocation" was the problem.
You know, it's the "she was dressed provocatively" of international relations. Infuriating.
BarrileteCosmico- Admin
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Re: Paris: Charlie Hebdo shooting
Actually the hatred was created by the Imams who took pictures from a remote and beforehand totally insignificant and unknown Danish newspaper that would have been forgotten the next week and never got public worldwide and copied them millions of times to rally their followers into some holy rage.RealGunner wrote:But to create such hatred between two diverse groups(wasn't their intention) which will intensify over the next 20 years with more incidents like this.
From then on things started to get a life on their own. You know, the Streisand effect. If they just would have ignored the issue of the Jyllands Posten, then nothing would have happened and no one would have been hurt.
So I wonder what really were the intentions of these imams who actually started the hatred and violence. The people listening to them never ever would have gotten notice of the caricatures in the first hand and I bet many of them wouldn't actually have bothered even if they had heard of them by someone else than their leaders who told them what outrage it was and that they should act violently against the perpetrators.
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