Is CB the most difficult player type to evaluate?

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Is CB the most difficult player type to evaluate? Empty Is CB the most difficult player type to evaluate?

Post by Art Morte Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:53 pm

Liverpool bought Lovren for £20m who has been shite.

Has Benatia been worth all the hype?

Was Marquinhos worth all the hype (and transfer fee)?

Rojo?

Nastasic?

Chiriches?

Dejan Lovren is shite.

Is center-back actually the most difficult position to buy for? If not, what position is more difficult to get right?
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Post by EL Patron Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:54 pm

Lovren rofl
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Post by Donuts Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:56 pm

difficult to evaluate? no..
but completely underrated... for example a defender can have a near PERFECT game and one mistake could cost the team a goal, everyone blames him and calls that said defender horrible.

a striker messes up 9 times but the 10th scores a goal, gets all the praise in the world..

which is why defenders such as ramos/luiz and others that score somehow get more praise then others who deserve it more.
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Post by windkick Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:05 pm

Also depends on how the managers use them - high line or whatever. Some players can excel in the right system, then you put them in the another system with other defenders and midfielders in front of them and he might not mesh with them or the formation/tactic etc
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Post by Kick Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:30 pm

I think so, look at JT for example. Was dropped by Rafa and all Chelsea fans thought it was over, that he'd regress until he retired, but he is back and as good as ever under Jose.

Other positions are easier to evaluate, but CB depends a lot on the tactics and system.
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Post by RealGunner Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:32 pm

Very difficult because WC CBs like Thiago Silva, Koscielny, Ramos all are generally solid and reliable but will also be making silly errors at times.

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Post by sportsczy Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:35 pm

CBs mature slower than other players... most don't really become good until they're 25 or older.  The problem today is that teams are looking to evaluate teenage or very young CBs... that's a failing proposition unless they're absolute phenoms.  

Other critical part of the evaluation is separating tactical scheme from the CBs individual defending skills.  You MUST separate the two.  

If i'm a sporting director, i'd only target CBs that are older.  You know what you're getting.

Just to point to your Lovren example... he was pathetic for years at Lyon.  Voted as the 5 worse CBs in the league for 2 years running.  When Liverpool pay that much money for a CB, they can't just look at 1 good year.  It's not enough.  You need to look at several years and make a broad assessment.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:37 pm

RealGunner wrote:Very difficult because WC CBs like Koscielny



rofl

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Post by farfan Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:38 pm

lol at RG plugging Koscielny in that list of world class CBs thinking that nobody will notice Laughing
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Post by Valkyrja Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:39 pm

RealGunner wrote:Very difficult because WC CBs like Thiago Silva, Koscielny, Ramos all are generally solid and reliable but will also be making silly errors at times.



Koscielny ? Laughing If he is WC the standards of defenders regressed very much. There are very few WC CBs at the moment, TS, Varane and maybe another 1 or 2. Or you can call this guys exceptions, like sports said above.


Last edited by Valkyrja on Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by M99 Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:41 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
RealGunner wrote:Very difficult because WC CBs like Koscielny



rofl



rofl rofl
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Post by izzy Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:06 pm

Valkyrja wrote:Koscielny ? Laughing If he is WC the standards of defenders regressed very much. There are very few WC CBs at the moment, TS, Varane and maybe another 1 or 2. Or you can call this guys exceptions, like sports said above.


Suspect

What? When did this happen?
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Post by Donuts Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:09 pm

izzy wrote:
Valkyrja wrote:Koscielny ? Laughing If he is WC the standards of defenders regressed very much. There are very few WC CBs at the moment, TS, Varane and maybe another 1 or 2. Or you can call this guys exceptions, like sports said above.


Suspect

What? When did this happen?

around the same time marcelo became a top 5 winger.
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Post by Kick Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:11 pm

Guys, there are only two WC CB's atm, TS and Zouma :coffee:
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:12 pm

izzy wrote:
Valkyrja wrote:Koscielny ? Laughing If he is WC the standards of defenders regressed very much. There are very few WC CBs at the moment, TS, Varane and maybe another 1 or 2. Or you can call this guys exceptions, like sports said above.


Suspect

What? When did this happen?


It didn't, he's a WC talent but not a WC player yet. It's important to differentiate the two imo.
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Post by Ganso Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:20 pm

the definition of WC varies from one person to another, but the general consensus should be that a WC player is at least a starter for his club.
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Post by M99 Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:21 pm

Ganso wrote:the definition of WC varies from one person to another, but the general consensus should be that a WC player is at least a starter for his club.


Laughing Proud
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Post by chad4401 Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:34 pm

varane needs more experience and physicality, he can be caught out cause he tries anticipate a lot, end up backing off too much or just waits for the first touch to tackle, needs to step up and take charge, instead waiting for the perfect moment, just to get chipped Laughing
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Post by gianluca1193 Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:22 am

The difficulty is evident. It's sufficient to read the comments of this thread.


Last edited by gianluca1193 on Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Forza Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:52 am

Good defenders work as a unit. The problem when evaluating a CB is that he can easily be singled out for an individual mistake, but is seldom praised for his anticipation, communication or organisation.
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Post by McLewis Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:24 am

I personally think DMs are tougher to evaluate considering more is asked of them than CBs and they are often much more versatile.
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Post by Onyx Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:03 am

It is. However if you intentionally go into a game simply to scout the defender, then it'd be easier to evaluate him.

But let's you're just casually watching your team vs some midtable club, you aren't really going to be able tell the difference between 2 generic defenders your team is up against.

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Post by sportsczy Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:06 am

The DM is now a deep playing mid... and yes, their job is a lot more complicated. They're the ones charged with organizing the defense since they key everything. You don't want a noob playing deep playing mid or CB.

There an old saying in footy that states you should recruit experience on defense and talent/youthful exuberance on the attack.
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Post by The Franchise Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:15 am

I guess, somewhat.

I think that nowadays, every team is alot more focused on team defending than even 10 years ago, let alone further back.

Now, I see every team defending in a similar way, using the idea's of the great teams of history. If they press, they press, thats different from team to team...but if they arent in a pressing situation and have conceded the opponent has "safe" possession, they get 9-10 men behind the ball with 2 lines (can be 3 depending on the use of the holding midfielder) and keep compact. Move side to side and each player is protected by his team mates.

Its good defending and it makes it very easy to notice if one player isnt giving all his effort in this defensive phase because they stand out quickly.

But the point is, because of this better team defending principles a CB is more protected but at the same time, you see their individual quality less. They have to do less last ditch defending, less desperation clearance and less 1 v 1.

So, I guess it can be more difficult to see an individual CB stand out unless they have a especially amazing game and usually that also involves their ability to use the ball in an offensive way.

That's just on top of what others have already said with regards to what happens with all defenders (1 mistake = alot of blame etc)
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Post by Cruijf Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:18 am

As most people have said defending is more about the system than the individual players. It's why Holland could destroy a team with supposedly WC CBs in Ramos and Pique and then fail to score against Costa Rica.

Judging individual players is difficult and you can easily get misled.
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