Re: World Cup FINAL: Germany vs Argentina discussion

by FennecFox7 Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:33 am

BarcaLearning wrote:
Mamad wrote:I don't agree about Argentina's defence being good.

lets see:

against Bosnia : didn't see the game
against Iran : ref didn't give Iran a clear penalty and Iran had another 2 great chances to score.
against Nigeria : 2 goals conceded
against Switzerland : they were lucky as hell they didn't concede
against Belgium : didn't see the entire game....but Belgium are crap.
against Netherlands : their best defensive performance. Robben had a very good chance to score btw but he didn't control the ball well and Mascherano who had a fantastic game blocked his shot.

Argentina's defence isn't that good really. what they needed to do against Netherlands was to shut down Robben and they did that. all due respect to Netherlands they were a one man team.

Defending against Germany is way more complex than defending against Netherlands. They will face a team with a fantastic midfield and great link up play not some young kids with Robben.

i may be wrong but i think Argentina will need to park the bus.

That post.....

That post is nitpicking at its finest

Fact is argentinas defense has been one of the more solid ones in the tournament and stats back it up. iran had literally 2 shots Laughing

Germanys has been average. Algeria and Ghana ripped apart their slow defense. every time a pacy team that runs in behind goes against them they suffer. Algeria had a field day with the long balls and neuer basically saved them from annihilation in the first half

by urbaNRoots Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:11 am

And that's you nitpicking on Germany, Giggity. 3 cleansheets so far in the tournament and conceded against Algeria/Brazil only when the game was DONE, so yeah if Germany's defence has been average then all the other defences have been below average really.

by BarrileteCosmico Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:25 pm

Why is it that when people talk about Argentina "the group games don't matter" yet when we talk about Germany they only mention the group stage games? Laughing

Moving on, who do you guys think will have the responsibility of marking Messi? Neither Khedira nor Piggy seem up to the task alone imo so I'm wondering of Germany will play an extra midfielder or another sort of tactical fix.

by The Franchise Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:39 pm

Its a good question.

The Swiss had a double pivot that never moved from him, Belguim allowed him to get the ball far too often and while he didnt dominate he had an element of control over the game Germany wont want.

Holland always man mark in midfield numerically because of their formation (always having 3) so De Jong was always there.

Germany cant afford to man mark him in their formation (unless they shockingly go back to having Lahm in there again lol) so they either will let him roam free or apply high pressure. If they apply high pressure then Argentina will have space behind they have been looking for since the qualifiers really.

Its a tactically interesting game.

by Onyx Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:56 pm

Spoiler:

by Onyx Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:33 pm

Italian referee Nicola Rizzoli is the referee for the final.

by Rebaño Sagrado Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:59 pm

No Webb

by Zealous Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:49 pm

With regards to Argentina's defense I'm not offended by it but I'm not convinced that it's particularly great. I'm basing this on how little offensive threat they've actually come up against.

All that said finals tend to force teams to raise their defensive focus anyway so it could be a moot point in the end.

I don't see Germany changing their game plan or how they play. Argentina have Messi but funnily enough it is Argentina who will have to think of a way to counter Germany imo.

by Zealous Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:52 pm

Fußball wrote:
Zealous wrote:
Fußball wrote:Z is having a deep inner psychological crysis. Z.

lol nothing that traumatic although you are such a diva when it comes to teasing.

I'm rustled as chit though no doubt.

At least you're still standing and proudly fighting for the cause. Valk has already disappeared from the WC forum since this prediction:

Valkyrja wrote:Messi the NT flop leading the poll

This is 2010 all over again. Everyone expects Argentina to light up the tournament. Wait until they meet a good team.

In Valk's defense Argentina haven't faced a good team yet hmm

Doesn't matter though, Argentina are winning regardless.

by Ganso Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:15 pm

just watched the 90 final, has to be the worst one ever.so bad the ref had to take care of it

and I thought Spain-Netherlands was bad

by farfan Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:18 pm

the 1994 final was atrocious too .

by junkyard Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:12 am

Is there any chance really Di Maria will play?

by Harmonica Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:28 pm

junkyard wrote:Is there any chance really Di Maria will play?

Hopefully Di Maria will make it in the final, because the odds are against Messi enough as it is.

Argentina 2014 is a fit Aguero and Di Maria shy of being Argentina 1986. Both conceded 3 goals into the final. Goals,

Messi 4 - 5 Maradona
Higuain 1 - 1 Pasculli
Rojo/Own Goal 2 - 2 Ruggeri/Brown

Di Maria 1 - 2 Burruchaga
Aguero 0 - 4 Valdano

by messixaviesta Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:00 pm

RealGunner wrote:if Messi wants it, he will get it.

Messi certainly wants it but there are question marks over his fitness and stamina.

by messixaviesta Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:02 pm

Ganso wrote:7-1, calling it here

My prediction is a 0-1 to Argentina. The first half is very cagey. Messi's brilliance causes the only goal early in the second half. Then onwards Argentina prevent Germany from scoring with a tactical master class and another tiger like performance from Mascherano. Thumbs up

by messixaviesta Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:05 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:It's make or break time for Messi.

Win the final with a top performance, or be not considered the best.

I have to agree with that.

by messixaviesta Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:07 pm

Ganso wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:Can't wait until Khedira crushes Argentina in front of thousands of laughing Brazilians. It'll be glorious.
Do it for us.It's all we can ask after yesterday.

Nice time for such a signature ganso. When the present is terrible why not highlight the glories of the past! Even if we win the final we will still be ** behind you all.

by messixaviesta Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:14 pm

Forza wrote:Argentina were my prediction from the start, so I'm sticking with that - even though I think Germany is a more complete team.

Exactly same here

by messixaviesta Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:16 pm

Peccadillo wrote:But if Argentina can beat Germany, which I suspect they will - no one can call its a fluke ffs..

Yes if we win the final without going to penalties and without undeserved dollops of luck then this fluke thing can be firmly put to rest.

by Hapless_Hans Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:18 pm

messixaviesta wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:It's make or break time for Messi.

Win the final with a top performance, or be not considered the best.

I have to agree with that.

actually I don't, at least not really. was meant a little tongue in cheek, just to pile pressure lol.

by messixaviesta Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:21 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:
messixaviesta wrote:
Hapless_Hans wrote:It's make or break time for Messi.

Win the final with a top performance, or be not considered the best.

I have to agree with that.

actually I don't, at least not really. was meant a little tongue in cheek, just to pile pressure lol.

I see. I fell for it. Sad

However I do think Messi is under immense pressure. Yes he can be forgiven if he loses to a better team like Germany but this is his chance to become Maradona II and he will almost surely never again get this chance.

by dostoevsky Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:24 pm

At the risk of simply stating the obvious, I believe the longer Argentina can maintain their clean sheet, the greater their chances of overthrowing the Germans. With fatigue kicking in after a long tournament, comebacks which were the standard in the opening days have become few and far between. In their encounter at the last World Cup, the concession of an early goal allowed Germany to control the match, robbing Argentina of space without the need to expose their own back line thanks to a cheap set piece goal. It is this same superiority at set pieces that has me place Germany as the favourites for the match, though I feel it is truly a toss of the coin, even should Di Maria prove absent. For this reason I would even consider reintroducing Basanta at left back in order to better handle the German threat at set plays, though I doubt Sabella will abandon Rojo unless forced to.

I shan't repeat the points that have already been brought up in a number of excellent posts, however certainly I would expect a low scoring affair given the approaches brought by each team. I could only foresee a comfortable lead being built in the last few minutes if a team has to go for broke to get an equaliser.

I don't feel that Messi has to win in order to be considered an all time great, though it would help. Should he provide a top performance but end on the losing side it would not hurt his reputation, but in either case, he's set to participate in a World Cup final. That was all the likes of Cruyff managed.

by Hapless_Hans Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:28 pm

Oh absolutely there's a lot of pressure and a lot at stake.

But it's still a team sport, I for one won't change my opinion about Messi whether he singlehandedly wins Argentina that final or not.

We all know he could do it. If he doesn't we still know he had the ability, he's shown it enough.

by messixaviesta Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:14 pm

dostoevsky wrote:At the risk of simply stating the obvious, I believe the longer Argentina can maintain their clean sheet, the greater their chances of overthrowing the Germans. With fatigue kicking in after a long tournament, comebacks which were the standard in the opening days have become few and far between. In their encounter at the last World Cup, the concession of an early goal allowed Germany to control the match, robbing Argentina of space without the need to expose their own back line thanks to a cheap set piece goal. It is this same superiority at set pieces that has me place Germany as the favourites for the match, though I feel it is truly a toss of the coin, even should Di Maria prove absent. For this reason I would even consider reintroducing Basanta at left back in order to better handle the German threat at set plays, though I doubt Sabella will abandon Rojo unless forced to.

I shan't repeat the points that have already been brought up in a number of excellent posts, however certainly I would expect a low scoring affair given the approaches brought by each team. I could only foresee a comfortable lead being built in the last few minutes if a team has to go for broke to get an equaliser.

I don't feel that Messi has to win in order to be considered an all time great, though it would help. Should he provide a top performance but end on the losing side it would not hurt his reputation, but in either case, he's set to participate in a World Cup final. That was all the likes of Cruyff managed.

dost, great post. I agree almost completely. Comebacks are what is needed to set the world cup alight in the later stages and that has been sadly missing in this world cup. Some of the key matches have almost completely depended on which side scores first just as you said. In fact the side scoring first in the final will have one hand on the trophy so to say. In previous world cups as in club football a one goal lead can often mean nothing but in this world cup a one goal lead is like the match almost won. If one team goes behind this being a world cup final they should give everything to get an equalizer but then they wouldn't want to be disgraced like the Brazil 1-7 either. So will they still be cautious? Maybe a bit of both sentiments will dominate their actions at that point.

The Cruyff parallel is coming to my mind a bit too often. If Messi ends up on the losing side then it will become the reality. However Cruyff played in only one world cup and he was the outstanding player of that world cup while as far as Messi is concerned you just need to skim through the various posts to realize that the opinion is very mixed as to how brilliant he has been in this tournament. So I can see a Messi defeat as clearly inferior to Cruyff's. A Messi victory though takes him ahead to a pedestal with Pele and Maradona. That may sound funny but the difference between winning and losing is that huge in football as in life.

For long I have been drawing the parallel with Maradona 1986 but one poster on this forum said something that I have been unable to forget. He said this is not Maradona 1986 but Maradona 1990. Messi has not been as brilliant as Maradona was in 1986. Instead he has been more like Maradona 1990 - decisive in key moments and inspiring a very average team to move ahead not just with the goals and creations but also the confidence that his presence gives to the entire team, all this while not being fully fit and not really playing like the magical footballer we know him to be. However only the result can actually decide this. It's 86 or 90 but which one we will only know at the end of the world cup final.

by messixaviesta Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:27 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:Oh absolutely there's a lot of pressure and a lot at stake.

But it's still a team sport, I for one won't change my opinion about Messi whether he singlehandedly wins Argentina that final or not.

We all know he could do it. If he doesn't we still know he had the ability, he's shown it enough.

I agree that one shouldn't really decide how great a footballer Messi is based on one match or even one tournament but consider this. What really is the difference between Pele and Maradona on one side and Cruyff and Di Stefano on the other. A football expert would probably tell you that all four are just as good as each other and any one of them could be called the best player ever with some justification. However if you ask the lay man especially the lay man from remote corners of this world how often does he hear the former two names and how often does he hear the latter two names you can guess what he would say. I'll tell you an incident from my childhood days. We were playing a game in which a kid was called and asked to name two footballers. The kid said Maradona immediately and after that continued to look blankly for the next few minutes. I can't explain better than that what Maradona meant to the world. So this no matter how unfair or even stupid it may be is in a sense Messi's only chance to become what Pele and Maradona in their times were. Without that also his talent and achievements very likely deserve that he be named along side Cruyff and Di Stefano. Hope that explains.

by rwo power Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:10 pm

RealGunner wrote:if Messi wants it, he will get it.

I just stumbled over a nice quote by Jean-Paul Sartre which is nicely fitting here: "In football everything is complicated by the presence of the opposite team."

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