Honor Killings

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Post by McLewis Tue May 27, 2014 4:57 pm

Read an article today about a woman in Pakistan that was stoned to death because she had just married the man she loved despite her family's disapproval. 20+ men from her family waited for her outside the courthouse and tried to physically rip her away from her new husband. She resisted and they began beating her to a pulp with bricks, in front of the courthouse. The father, who was arrested as the perpetrator, showed absolutely no remorse, citing the belief that his daughter had brought dishonor and shame to her family by not respecting their wishes.

Link to the whole article - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/27/pakistani-woman-stoned_n_5396665.html

Now what got me thinking about this topic was not so much the story, as we've seen this before in that region of the world, but the comments at the bottom. People immediately leapt to the conclusion that religion was to blame for this woman's death. There was almost immediate pushback on this, citing that this was a "culture" problem.

So where do honor killings fall within this spectrum? We see a lot of stories like this largely involving a large swath of religious communities, but what about outside of that? That has me thinking of the Albanian blood feud or the crime of passion committed by one lover towards another, one could even say killing a gang member who is trying to get out of that life could also be counted. Each of these are so prevalent in places like North America, Latin America and even Europe, it's quite commonplace and yet we are pretty desensitized to it despite these types of acts of violence beingdriven by a perceived lack of honor, whether that be to one' spouse, their gang, or even their country.

Why exactly do we react differently (with shock mostly) when this occurs within communities such as the one above?

My personal take on this is that honor killings should not necessarily be equated with religion. This is because honor cannot and should not be solely equated to religion. Judging based on the variety of ways this type of action goes down, it does appear to be related to culture.

Thoughts?
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Post by McAgger Tue May 27, 2014 5:07 pm

Which religion says honor killing is ok? NONE. That's the end of it. It's a cultural problem. Always has been.

I'm of an opinion that another 2-3 generations of these hardcore old timer culture followers need to pass away before anything can be fixed. As the world becomes even more westernized and modernized we will definitely see some drastic change. These people that already live by these traditions won't change their ideas or beliefs.

Pissed me off too much that article
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Post by McLewis Tue May 27, 2014 5:13 pm

McAgger wrote:
I'm of an opinion that another 2-3 generations of these hardcore old timer culture followers need to pass away before anything can be fixed.  As the world becomes even more westernized and modernized we will definitely see some drastic change. These people that already live by these traditions won't change their ideas or beliefs.

Do you think enough of the new generation are progressive enough to abandon these traditions? Perhaps this is true in the West where places like the USA are getting more and more progressive because of the emerging millenial generation, but what about less "liberal" regions such as Pakistan? I get the distinct feeling that their new generation may be a bit further behind.
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Post by McAgger Tue May 27, 2014 5:18 pm

When I say 2-3 generations, I really mean the unborn children of the children that are there today. I agree with you that this new generation is in fact going backwards instead of progressing. The more the world progresses as a whole, the more I think it'll pressure these conservative countries to follow suit.

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Post by Nishankly Tue May 27, 2014 5:20 pm

Honor killing is prevalent in India in the backward areas, Its basically one side or both sides of the families get the couple killed in a way to save their "honor". Its one of the most backward things that exist in my country.

Now this honor is mostly based on caste, ie Higher caste marrying lower caste etc and religion if a Hindu marries a Muslim etc.

Umm actually guys religion is a part of it. It might not define the honor killing and but it is a cause of it.
It happens a lot due to religion. Pakistan is a single religion dominated country so the news confirms the culture basis but if you look at India where we have every major religion of this world inside one boundary, Religion is a big factor among honor killings. There is a reason for religion being a cause, But that's not required here.
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Post by Nishankly Tue May 27, 2014 5:26 pm

McLewis wrote:
I get the distinct feeling that their new generation may be a bit further behind.

This is purely based on education or the literacy rate of the country, The news we read are of the most backward places of these countries. An average educated pakistani teenager or any developing country wont show much difference from an average educated European or American teenager.
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Post by rwo power Tue May 27, 2014 5:31 pm

Well, I mentioned this somewhere in the God thread - those abominable "honour" murders unfortunately happen even in Germany when immigrants from countries with strong patriarchalic and very often "Islamic" traditions clash with the much freer culture here and have their women demand certain freedoms, too.

There have been young women tortured (!) to death by their brothers and other male relatives just for having a Christian boyfriend or not wearing a headscarf here because their considered it to dishonour their family. It is really gruesome.

Here's a (German language) website dealing with the topic of these murders in Germany: http://www.ehrenmord.de/
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Post by RED Tue May 27, 2014 8:23 pm

Barbaric village mentality from people still stuck in the stone ages. And the majority of these people not only carry this act in their backward countries, they also carry this act in the western world too.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've read a news article about an uncle, cousin, brother, etc, stabbing to death their niece, sister, daughter just because she refused to marry the man they chose for her, or if she fell in love with someone from another sect of their religion. A cowardly and barbaric act in which they then hide behind their religion to falsely justify it.

Eff the lot of them. Scum.
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Post by Nishankly Wed May 28, 2014 2:48 am

Religion is huge factor, At least in my country.
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Post by rwo power Wed May 28, 2014 5:04 am

The problem is that some religions and heavy patriarchic structures where women have up to no rights whatsoever go well together.
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Post by Lex Wed May 28, 2014 12:06 pm

RED wrote:Barbaric village mentality from people still stuck in the stone ages. And the majority of these people not only carry this act in their backward countries, they also carry this act in the western world too.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've read a news article about an uncle, cousin, brother, etc, stabbing to death their niece, sister, daughter just because she refused to marry the man they chose for her, or if she fell in love with someone from another sect of their religion. A cowardly and barbaric act in which they then hide behind their religion to falsely justify it.

Eff the lot of them. Scum.
This is basically mine and most of the UK's feelings towards the matter
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Post by Peccadillo Wed May 28, 2014 8:53 pm

Why did my post get removed?
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Post by rwo power Wed May 28, 2014 10:58 pm

Hm. I sure haven't removed any post here. I just read that RG worked a bit on the technical side of the forum, so I wouldn't consider it impossible that some side-effects of his updates might have resulted in some unwanted effects.
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Post by Peccadillo Thu May 29, 2014 12:56 am

yeah wasn't just mine - a few went missing from this thread. I thought it was for inciting hatred or something Twisted Evil 

Anyway I can't be bothered re-posting, much to your dissapointment I'm sure.

In a nutshell.. honour killings, although justified by some pieces of illegitimate scripture, are certainly derived from cultural tradition.
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Post by McLewis Thu May 29, 2014 1:32 pm

Sorry if posts got removed, Peccadillo. There's some work going on in the background of the forum so it was certainly unintentional.

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Post by TalkingReckless Thu May 29, 2014 2:05 pm

Want to make this news even worse?

The husband of this women killed his last wife because he fell in love with her...


“I was in love with Farzana and killed my first wife because of this love,” adding that he had strangled her.

Iqbal said he was spared a prison term because his son — who alerted police to the murder — later forgave him under the country’s controversial blood-money laws.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/714892/lhc-honour-killing-husband-of-slain-woman-murdered-first-wife/

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Post by McLewis Sat May 31, 2014 10:07 am

Awful stuff, but that just further confirms that laws in that region are more culturally-driven than religiously driven.
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Post by Arquitecto Sat May 31, 2014 2:17 pm

These incidents may be byproducts of religious culture yet in no way directly from the context of religion considering no abramhamic religion supports this doctrine.

From what I know, these incidents happen in the more provincial villages within South-East Asia as it would be callous to represent them by the acts of these uncivilised individuals.

So in essence, culture is a dominant factor there while putting it purely on patriarchy is false considering tha would also be taken context.
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Post by rwo power Sat May 31, 2014 5:48 pm

So you think that any culture where women are given a real worth as persons and not as property (which is usually the case in strict patriarchic cultures) would condone honour killings like that?

IMO it is directly related to pariarchic structures where men try to keep the absolute power over their women and only use them as chess pieces to gain power and/or social standing by marriages (where the women or girls of course are not even asked whether they like the idea or not - and if they try to to resist, they are either beaten up or worse killed because the father/other  male relatives feel threatened in their position of power).
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Post by la bestia negra Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:16 pm

Under sharia law, "punishment for adultery or fornication can't be enforced unless there is a confession by the culprit or a testimony of four reliable, sane and adult eyewitnesses who each saw the process of sexual intercourse."

just thought id share this here

anyways if your gonna link your family's "honor" with your sister/daughter's body and choices while ignoring your's is ugh i just cant find words to describe it
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Post by rwo power Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:42 pm

The problem is that there have been cases of mass rape where one women's testimony is versus several adult reliable male eyewitnesses, that is, the guys who raped her. Guess how this ends...
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Post by Mamad Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:10 pm

I'm from Iran and as you all know the country is running by Islamic laws.

In Iran if for example 7 guys rape a girl, all 7 of them are punished by death. who the *heck* punishes the victim?

This is not about religion. it is about some stone age people who live like animals and don't have the brains to think. i hope they all die from ass cancer ffs.


Last edited by RedOranje on Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Profanity)
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Post by Mamad Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:23 pm

In Islam the girl ( if virgin ) needs fathers approval to marry. but if her father doesn't have a reasonable reason for standing against marriage, girl can go to court and get married without her fathers approval.

So what the father and those guys did is punishable according to sharia. if they killed the girl, they should all be hanged.


Last edited by Mamad on Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by la bestia negra Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:17 pm

rwo power wrote:The problem is that there have been cases of mass rape where one women's testimony is versus several adult reliable male eyewitnesses, that is, the guys who raped her. Guess how this ends...

this is when the government has to step in unfortunately they come up with retarded solutions at points take a look at my country we have this retarded law
where the rapist can escape charges if he ends up marrying the victim
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Post by Shed Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:18 pm

la bestia negra wrote:anyways if your gonna link your family's "honor" with your sister/daughter's body and choices while ignoring your's is ugh i just cant find words to describe it


Religious fanaticism requires no consistency; and very often, you'll find, exhibits none. We see no different even in more modernised, liberalised (in relative terms) nations/cultures, albeit concerning far less severe issues. In the US, for example, Christian nutjobs rave about things like rights concerning homosexuality, and abortion, demanding that they be criminalised because their particular 2,000 year old holy book says so, while being completely and tellingly nonchalant on and apathetic to, in terms of legality, things like divorce, remarriage, fornication, etc. - all things not only deemed equally as sinful by their bible, but also that they themselves practice without a second thought.


They're willful hypocrites. Attempting to hold them to any standard elsewise is a complete waste of time and brain power.

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