Barclay's Premier League discussion '13-'14 V8

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Post by McAgger Fri 21 Mar 2014, 20:09

Disagree RedO, not with all of it but with the 3rd paragraph. Say United and Spurs hadn't collapsed and were in the mix as well. Our fortunes have nothing to do with their demise. We'd still be sitting where we are fighting amongst all of them. The only difference being there would be 6 clubs vying for the top 4 than four. And inconsistencies of City, Chelsea, Arsenal have nothing to do with fortune. No team in the league is perfect.

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Post by RedOranje Fri 21 Mar 2014, 20:26

As I said, some will disagree.

However, if United had lived up to the standard set in previous seasons this year, and Spurs played up to their potential, while the talent and depth of the other three shown through I can't see how you can argue we'd still be sitting 2nd and in the title race. You're looking at a 6 point swing between us and United in the Old Trafford match, potentially more points dropped at WHL, and significantly fewer points dropped by those sides against other sides which puts both right up in the mix (and drops us down). Then there are the surprise results early on from City's away form and Chelsea's stumbles. Even discounting dropped points against the likes of Villa where the clubs have traditionally struggled, it's not at all a stretch to say that they should have been expected to get more results along the way.

Note that this isn't in any way a criticism on LFC or Rodgers or whatever. I specifically stated that we'd still be better off and improved on last season regardless of these factors. And this surprises should take nothing away from where we sit as of now and the accomplishment of getting there so quickly and definitely should not count against the fantastic play we've seen from Liverpool this season.

If these sides had all performed as expected of them at the beginning of the season, though, it's almost certain LFC would not be sitting where they are right now in the table. And there's nothing absolutely wrong with that. Fortune favours the bold. Liverpool have been bold. Recognise it. Celebrate it.
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Post by Busby Babe Fri 21 Mar 2014, 20:28

RedOranje wrote:

While I understand your point and don't entirely disagree, there are some notable differences between Liverpool's situation and United's.

First and foremost, Liverpool's squad was on that was pretty young overall and has even gotten younger as some of the youth players have broken out in a way no-one really foresaw or predicted.  While United certainly have produced notable talent from their academy over the years, the type of boom that we've seen at Liverpool under Rodgers is most definitely NOT the norm for football clubs. Laughing 
I agree, it was not seen but how do we know we can't see the same boom we've seen in Henderson , say in, Phil Jones. It's not guaranteed, but how will we know if we never give him a run of games at CB? So, I'd rather give them a go, then purchase if needed.

Second, Liverpool DID actually sign players who have contributed to the chase: Mignolet, Sakho, Toure (early season form, remember), Coutinho, and Sturridge are all players who've come in in recent windows and played their parts in our upturn in fortunes.  To say that United only need a signing or two, then point to Liverpool's success is a bit incongruous.

I meant specifically to your starting line-up and meant signings in the summer. As in, if you asked if someone in the summer 'how many signings will Liverpool need to make in the to challange for the title?' they would have said a lot more, then you actually did. I know you have had injuries and players like Toure have played well but I don't think depth is really our issue next season (when you replace those starting this season, as back-ups next season)

Third, while some may contest this, I do think that Liverpool have been more than a little bit fortunate that the upturn has coincided with the struggles of clubs above them.  Certainly Liverpool would be performing better than the previous few seasons this year regardless of other clubs, but I don't think there can be too much doubt that we wouldn't be doing quite so well if not for the struggles of United and Tottenham, as well as the inconsistency of Chelsea, City, and Arsenal.  We've been bold, and fortune has favoured us.

If you finish 3rd the Man Utd and Tottenham excuse goes out of the window. Football has a lot to do with fortune and Sir Alex was always going to retire so it was kind of your 'time'. Also, there was the excuse last season, that we only won it because everyone was rubbish. This season, will the winner have the excuse 'Well, SAF is not managing Man Utd anymore, x team is lucky'?. Anyway, it's not only you that has improved, Arsenal has too. There was questions at the start of the season of 'Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal for 4th place' so at the very least there was doubts of fourth place for them let alone a title challenge.

Finally, a lot of the improvement in Liverpool has to be put at the feet of Rodgers.  He's grown immensely as a manager in terms of tactics from last season and shown a remarkable and surprising nous for adapting formations that most did not believe he had.  Alongside that, Rodgers has been an absolute revelation as a coach.  Just about every single squad member has improved as a player since his arrival, some spectacularly.  That's not something that can be expected of many or even most managers.  Even replacing Moyes would not guarantee such a shift.

I agree sacking Moyes is half the job, you then need to bring in a good replacement. However, like you say nearly every player has improved. Well, vice versa what is happening to us is nearly every player has performed worse at an alarming rate.

Realistically those things should not all be expected to happen in a single summer (which is why LFC's transformation has caught so many off guard) and without just about all of those things happening it's a bit unrealistic to expect United to go from 6th/7th to challenging in a single summer.  Certainly, Untied have the benefit of having top players already with the likes of Rooney, RvP, Mata, etc but there are still questions even about those players, along with a great deal of concerns elsewhere in the squad.  The most immediate way to address those would certainly be by throwing money at the problem.

I don't want to talk about a title push next season, there's too many 'ifs'. Now, anything can happen if we get a good managerial replacement and quality players in we can talk about it then. For now, our aim is to get in the top 4 anything else is a bonus.

A minimum of 3 signings are needed, I'd think and quite possibly more depending on whether a change in manager/approach is desired.

Yes, I agree minimum 3 is needed. 6 is not the problem, but 6 into the starting line-up is unrealistic that would just prolong the transition, and make it harder to obtain any targets we set out next season. Yes we will still have problems in our starting line-up but which team doesn't?
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Post by RedOranje Fri 21 Mar 2014, 20:54

You'd be asking quite a lot for all of Smalling, Jones, Rafael, Cleverley, Januzaj, and perhaps another player to show the type of development that we've seen this season from Henderson, Sterling, Flanagan, et al. I'm certainly not saying it's impossible but it does seem highly unlikely. Even for a manger like Rodgers, who's reputation is almost entirely (before this season) based around developing young players it's an achievement and surprise and there's certainly no guarantee that that's the type of manager that United would pursue to replace Moyes (if he's even sacked).

RED has suggested that Moyes is "the only barrier that is keeping" United from being title challengers. I can't agree with that and that's what I was, in part, responding to. Even if Rafael, Evans, Mata, and RvP find their previous performance levels that leaves Jones, Smalling, Januzaj, Cleverley and others to push on in a massive way to mimic Liverpool's season.
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Post by Busby Babe Fri 21 Mar 2014, 21:19

RedOranje wrote:You'd be asking quite a lot for all of Smalling, Jones, Rafael, Cleverley, Januzaj, and perhaps another player to show the type of development that we've seen this season from Henderson, Sterling, Flanagan, et al.  I'm certainly not saying it's impossible but it does seem highly unlikely.  Even for a manger like Rodgers, who's reputation is almost entirely (before this season) based around developing young players it's an achievement and surprise and there's certainly no guarantee that that's the type of manager that United would pursue to replace Moyes (if he's even sacked).

RED has suggested that Moyes is "the only barrier that is keeping" United from being title challengers.  I can't agree with that and that's what I was, in part, responding to.  Even if Rafael, Evans, Mata, and RvP find their previous performance levels that leaves Jones, Smalling, Januzaj, Cleverley and others to push on in a massive way to mimic Liverpool's season.

Rafael has already shown his capabilities last season, he can show it again, him being injury prone doesn't help though. Cleverley will probably just be a squad player at most. Januzaj is mentioned as one of the best young players in the league, so yeah I think he can make it. Smalling it might be just a bridge too far, injuries really haven't worked out for him and he's a bit too old now to be mentioned. Again, with Jones he might not be, he might become terrible. I know a lot of people have doubts about him especially after the game against Liverpool. I just want to see a bit more, before I can say for certain no he won't be good enough. That's only from our current squad too, there's always a surprise that can come from the academy next season.

Fair enough about, RED. In part he might be right, every team that is in the current top 4, is in the title challenge. Who knows, we might be, it's unlikely, but we might be.
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Post by McAgger Fri 21 Mar 2014, 22:19

yo Moal, how highly do you guys rate Bigirimana?

Because our 16 year old Rossiter just made him look like an absolute dud in the U21 game Proud

5-2 Proud
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Post by Onyx Fri 21 Mar 2014, 23:51

Barclay's Premier League discussion '13-'14 V8 - Page 40 BjSP_9TCIAELfy6

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Post by ExtremistEnigma Fri 21 Mar 2014, 23:59

Trophies is all that matters in the end.
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Post by RedOranje Sat 22 Mar 2014, 00:14

ExtremistEnigma wrote:Trophies is all that matters in the end.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Trophies are undeniably the MOST important aspect of a manager's legacy but they're hardly the only one that matters. Style of football, force (or lack) of personality, and how they leave the squad/club when they do finally leave all matter as well... just ask Portsmouth fans.
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Post by Helmer Sat 22 Mar 2014, 00:17

I think trophies matter but it's overall a club's achievement but a manager's success should not be evaluated based only on Trophies, there are lot of factors from the club side which a´play a big role in challenging for the trophies

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Post by RealGunner Sat 22 Mar 2014, 00:21

ExtremistEnigma wrote:Trophies is all that matters in the end.

I am sure Portsmouth fans would agree to that.
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Post by RealGunner Sat 22 Mar 2014, 00:22

lol just saw red's post. That's a top 5 poster right there

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Post by ExtremistEnigma Sat 22 Mar 2014, 00:32

RedOranje wrote:
ExtremistEnigma wrote:Trophies is all that matters in the end.
I disagree wholeheartedly.  Trophies are undeniably the MOST important aspect of a manager's legacy but they're hardly the only one that matters.  Style of football, force (or lack) of personality, and how they leave the squad/club when they do finally leave all matter as well... just ask Portsmouth fans.
I agree with the latter, but not with the first two. Style of football and/or lack of personality do not quantify or illustrate a manager's ability. No one adores and rates Rafa for his playing philosophy, but rather for being clutch.
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Post by RealGunner Sat 22 Mar 2014, 00:32

People do rate Rafa for his tactical approach though. That does come under style of football.
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Post by Onyx Sat 22 Mar 2014, 00:37

Trophies matter, at least for a top club they do.

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Post by ExtremistEnigma Sat 22 Mar 2014, 00:37

..which ultimately leads to trophies. Hence the getting rated for tactical approach.
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Post by RealGunner Sat 22 Mar 2014, 00:41

So why did you say "Style of football and/or lack of personality do not quantify or illustrate a manager's ability" then lol?

Or you meant style should only come under consideration IF a manager is successful?
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Post by Helmer Sat 22 Mar 2014, 00:43

dont they crucify people at Barca for playing style hmm

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Post by ExtremistEnigma Sat 22 Mar 2014, 00:50

If the term "style of football" does include the manager's tactical approach to the game, then isn't a lack of trophies a sign of failed tactician? That's what I meant.

You cannot be called a good tactician or one having a great tactical approach to the game if it doesn't translate to silverware. Simple.
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Post by RealGunner Sat 22 Mar 2014, 00:55

But Arsene has won quite a lot of silverware no? So how can he be a failed tactician? Or are we having our own time span in this again?

Martinez is tactically one of the best managers around, but highly doubt he will win anything with Everton. Because Everton can't compete with clubs above them on many front. That was the same case with us in the last 8 years. A manager can't win trophies on his own.
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Post by Blue Barrett Sat 22 Mar 2014, 01:11

Stop it mate Laughing

The money Chelsea/City/United spent did not make you lose a cup final to Birmingham. Liverpool also came 2nd in that span too. They certainly weren't big spenders.

I hate when Arsenal fans use that excuse. You have had teams good enough to win the title(or a trophy at least) over the past 8 years(maybe not every year of the Cool, true or false?
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Post by RealGunner Sat 22 Mar 2014, 01:19

Blue Barrett wrote:Stop it mate Laughing

The money Chelsea/City/United spent did not make you lose a cup final to Birmingham. Liverpool also came 2nd in that span too. They certainly weren't big spenders.

I hate when Arsenal fans use that excuse. You have had teams good enough to win the title(or a trophy at least) over the past 8 years(maybe not every year of the Cool, true or false?

Liverpool are 5th most money spenders in the PL. Arsenal are 18th...

In any case

How was Szczesny-koscielny mess up in the end Arsene's fault?
How was Martin taylor ripping Eduardo's leg apart Arsene's fault?
How was RVP betraying the club Arsene's fault?
How was Nasri, Cesc leaving Arsene's fault?

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Post by Blue Barrett Sat 22 Mar 2014, 01:22

RealGunner wrote:
Blue Barrett wrote:Stop it mate Laughing

The money Chelsea/City/United spent did not make you lose a cup final to Birmingham. Liverpool also came 2nd in that span too. They certainly weren't big spenders.

I hate when Arsenal fans use that excuse. You have had teams good enough to win the title(or a trophy at least) over the past 8 years(maybe not every year of the Cool, true or false?

Liverpool are 5th most money spenders in the PL. Arsenal are 18th...

In any case

How was Szczesny-koscielny mess up in the end Arsene's fault?
How was Martin taylor ripping Eduardo's leg apart Arsene's fault?
How was RVP betraying the club Arsene's fault?
How was Nasri, Cesc leaving Arsene's fault?

Liverpool were 5th most money spenders as of 2009 when they came 2nd? I highly doubt that.

And these are all valid reasons which you could have mentioned rather than try to dump whatever failures Arsenal have had in the past 8 years on Chelsea/City/United money in one fell swoop. Its a weak argument tbh.
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Post by ExtremistEnigma Sat 22 Mar 2014, 01:22

Nowhere have I mentioned/implied that Wenger is a failed tactician.

Just saying that SAF may have worse win-loss stats in 1000 games than Wenger, but double the number of trophies is what makes a huge difference than apparent.
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Post by RedOranje Sat 22 Mar 2014, 01:23

ExtremistEnigma wrote:
RedOranje wrote:
ExtremistEnigma wrote:Trophies is all that matters in the end.
I disagree wholeheartedly.  Trophies are undeniably the MOST important aspect of a manager's legacy but they're hardly the only one that matters.  Style of football, force (or lack) of personality, and how they leave the squad/club when they do finally leave all matter as well... just ask Portsmouth fans.
I agree with the latter, but not with the first two. Style of football and/or lack of personality do not quantify or illustrate a manager's ability. No one adores and rates Rafa for his playing philosophy, but rather for being clutch.

Rafa had the force of personality at Liverpool, and his style of managing also worked well with fans. Being tactically adept can be considered part of a manager's style (flexible vs dogmatic) and trophies aren't the be-all, end-all of that measure, at Rafa's reputation as a tactician came from his ability to get his teams to perform in "big" matches and make deep runs in cups, but not necessarily winning them.



Yohan Modric wrote:Trophies matter, at least for a top club they do.
And no-one is suggesting otherwise.
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Post by Le Samourai Sat 22 Mar 2014, 01:34

They have had teams good enough, which says more about the genius of the man than anything else really.
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