Should Tevez and Llorente be called for the WC?

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Post by elm_baraja_shaman Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:37 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
elm_baraja_shaman wrote:Tevez deserves a place on the Argies team,this talk of him being a cancer is rubbish, that was the past the guy is maturing and I doubt that presently he would want to start over Messi, but am sure this would likely be his last world cup and he'd be content having a feature even off the bench for it,

At the Copa America:

Tevez: Everyone is passing the ball to Messi but not to me!
Batista: Yeah, because he's Messi...
Tevez: So? I'm Tevez

Right he knows his place Laughing

that was the past, am sure he will be content with a bench feature  since this could be his last world cup....


Last edited by elm_baraja_shaman on Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by DeviAngel Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:38 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:It's not about who's better. They're different profiles. Higuain is more of a poacher/finisher, Tevez is an SS that participates more in the buildup. Tevez would be competing for a spot with Aguero, only that Aguero can actually not get in Messi's way whereas Tevez can't. It's a no-brainer.

Palacio is the one competing with Higuain.
Placio deserves to start in front of Higuain at least for me this season he is playing like ninja doing everything. I get that they are different but saying that Tevez is third tier and Higuain is holder is bs Smile
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Post by LeBéninois Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:45 pm

Tevez has not been called since 2011 and his NT is doing well without him ( attacking wise ). No way he gets the call.

LLorente has always been called for majors events right ? right now he's doing as well as he did with Bilbao so i can see him go. He won't play a lot tho. Costa, Negredo, LLorente, cesc.
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Post by Art Morte Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:49 pm

Bénin wrote:Tevez has not been called since 2011 and his NT is doing well without him ( attacking wise ). No way he gets the call.

LLorente has always been called for majors events right ? right now he's doing as well as he did with Bilbao so i can see him go. He won't play a lot tho. Costa, Negredo, LLorente, cesc.

Yeah, realistically Tevez has no chance, but this is about Goallegacy opinions.

I can't help but think that taking Llorente would be a waste, Spain don't need him.
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Post by Uncanny Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:08 pm

I think tevez should have a place in Argentina's squad, but he is done with the national team. I don't think it's a messi situation, this is dating back to when he threw a fit in the bayern game and then went to play golf for a long time. While this was all going on, I think the Argentina fa president took this as something that shouldn't represent Argentina. Plus tevez is way too popular to be benched, aguero is more than capable of taking it on after tevez.
With llorente, it will be a waste for Spain to take him. As much as I like him, he isn't going to improve Spain's attack, and isn't going to be a game changer for Spain.
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Post by DeviAngel Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:53 pm

Uncanny wrote:I think tevez should have a place in Argentina's squad, but he is done with the national team.  I don't think it's a messi situation, this is dating back to when he threw a fit in the bayern game and then went to play golf for a long time.  While this was all going on, I think the Argentina fa president took this as something that shouldn't represent Argentina.  Plus tevez is way too popular to be benched, aguero is more than capable of taking it on after tevez.
With llorente, it will be a waste for Spain to take him.  As much as I like him, he isn't going to improve Spain's attack, and isn't going to be a game changer for Spain.

How can you say that he scored 2 goals against RM, 1 decisive for 2-2 , the other one for 1-1. Scored the opening goal against Napoli, The winning goal against Udinese and Chievo,Milan,Lazio, and a lot of opening and drawing goals. He won't be called up because they are to similar with Negredo
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Post by sportsczy Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:03 pm

When Llorente had no competition... he wasn't played by VDB. He chose Cesc instead and that was in the season where Llorente played the best in his career. I don't see any reason VDB would trust Llorente now, whether justified or not.

Tevez... his efficiency is just poor. He has a total of 15 goals all comps on 126 shots. That's 11,9%, which is beyond bad for a striker. Compare that to the 3 strikers that are on Argentina NT and it's not even close. He's nowhere near as good as Messi, Aguero and Higuain who are all over 20%. Heck, even Lavezzi, who doesn't play central striker, is better... he has 8 goals on 52 shots for 15,4% and i can't stand his inefficiency a lot of times (better recently). The thing Lavezzi has is a tireless work rate and a winger mentality... he defends really well, which Tevez can't.

It's not even much of a debate regarding these two for me. The NTs they represent are way too good.
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Post by Arquitecto Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:35 pm

There is no doubt that Llorente must be called up for España. The country wants him, Pep, Xavi, Grande and Buitre backed his calling and so does Villar. In all of Llorente's 23 appearances he's only had 2-3 poor performances to which were against Italia, Ecaudor and Serbia. Yet every time he is brought on or starting he adds a very complete dimension to España. Problem is, Vicente himself stated that the play tends to centre too much around Llorente naturally because he demands so many touches. While his positioning is intelligent, his off the ball movement is not frequent nor swift enough to cause consistent interchanging that Vicente's 4-6 formation needs. What he does add is his passing to which is complimented by his excellent vision and consistent link-up to bring his forwards into play while along with Villa, he is the only two-footed strikers we have. When it comes to technique and completeness, no Spanish striker comes close to him bar Villa. Speaking of Villa, I struggle to see why he is being ruled out for Cesc who while always performing for us, is hot and cold in his False 9 role to which gives us very limited dimension up front. Villa is our best striker of all time for La Roja and form or not, he performs just like Pedro, Cesc, Xabi etc. Form cannot even be begotten onto him given his excellence in Atletico this season.

Llorente will not be a consistent starter simply due to tactical reasons, despite what he brings for España in big games and important moments. Yet he is also called up due to his presence in the locker room to which adds leadership amongst the fusion of cultures despite his staunch support for the Basque flag. Xavi, Reina, Navas, Pique, Ramos etc all have spoken of his presence in the locker room and the tangent he brings in the field, actually dictating the pace up front. Sadly VDB has evolved past a complete CF more into a role to which requires a great deal of movement.

Negredo is inconsistent for España and cannot handle such responsibility like Villa and Llorente up front given he is not ambidextrous and isn't the on-ball player we need. Yet under Emery he did evolve as I would not mind him and Llorente competing for the spot especially given both are big game players and Llorente's thankless creative displays in Juventus.

Costa? VDB wants to experiment him yet as I predicted he was absolute dross versus Italia given he lacks the technique and guile needed to for such on-ball responsibility in a technical system. Its obvious he'll continue to make his aimless direct runs and fuel his endurance yet he isn't needed and frankly is not adept enough for a system that demands far more than what he brings.

Tevez? I cannot say so much given I do not watch Argentina yet there are better players than him whether Lavezzi or Higuain or Aguero. Like in Juventus his role is to compliment Llorente yet countless times he runs into his counter-part off the ball often stealing his directed balls and consistently trying to centre the play around him to no avail as it's tactically a headache.

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Post by Ion Creanga Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:09 pm

sportsczy wrote:When Llorente had no competition...  he wasn't played by VDB.  He chose Cesc instead and that was in the season where Llorente played the best in his career.  I don't see any reason VDB would trust Llorente now, whether justified or not.

Tevez...  his efficiency is just poor.  He has a total of 15 goals all comps on 126 shots.  That's 11,9%, which is beyond bad for a striker.  Compare that to the 3 strikers that are on Argentina NT and it's not even close.  He's nowhere near as good as Messi, Aguero and Higuain who are all over 20%.  Heck, even Lavezzi, who doesn't play central striker, is better... he has 8 goals on 52 shots for 15,4% and i can't stand his inefficiency a lot of times (better recently).  The thing Lavezzi has is a tireless work rate and a winger mentality...  he defends really well, which Tevez can't.

It's not even much of a debate regarding these two for me.  The NTs they represent are way too good.

What a shit post ... Prince Gauss would be so proud rofl
Can you also create a model to represent the player's value within a small epsilon error??

FFS with that logic Cristiano Ronaldo should be Steaua level player...
And don't you think that if tevez would take penalties at Juventus, like Higuain does at Napoli, his efficiency rate, would be much higher?

Taking pure statiscally, Tevez is way better than Higuain.. Ignoring penalties, in Serie A:

Tevez: 14 goals, 6 assists
Higuain: 9 goals, 7 assists
So, Tevez is 155% the player Higuain is rofl

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Post by sportsczy Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:04 pm

Higuain didn't flop in CL like Tevez did lol...  Tevez started 6 games in CL, 23 shots, 0 goals and 0 assists Laughing Higuain, who was heavily criticized for CL flopping before this year...  5 starts, 15 shots...  4 goals and 2 assists.  Tough CL group for Napoli too.

So CL doesn't count Laughing and efficiency means nothing for a striker LaughingLaughing

You do realize this is football... the kind that's played with a round ball and not an oval one. I need to check because given the quality of your posts, i've often wondered if you're confusing sports Laughing
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Post by Ion Creanga Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:25 pm

sportsczy wrote:Higuain didn't flop in CL like Tevez did lol...  Tevez started 6 games in CL, 23 shots, 0 goals and 0 assists Laughing Higuain, who was heavily criticized for CL flopping before this year...  5 starts, 15 shots...  4 goals and 2 assists.  Tough CL group for Napoli too.

So CL doesn't count Laughing and efficiency means nothing for a striker LaughingLaughing

You do realize this is football... the kind that's played with a round ball and not an oval one.  I need to check because given the quality of your posts, i've often wondered if you're confusing sports Laughing

Bar Llorente and Vidal maybe,  i can say all Juve's team flopped this year in CL, but that's another story...
2nd, I didn't said efficiency doesn't count but be aware when you count efficiency that penalties have a big influence on the final outcome for example... Also, you should count how many of those shots were from outside the box, free kicks etc...
Ronaldo is efficient, great finisher and has a low goal conversion rate because he often shoots from long range...
I think you're confusing football with some unuseful calculations, since your entire point on Tevez was based on some numbers and defense workrate ...
I prefer not to judge players on stats... At least, stats shouldn't play a fundamental role in judging a player value, especially as long as the stats don't prove the point, which in our case is efficiency...

And there's an ignore option here, i guess it's there with a purpose!
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Post by sportsczy Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:34 pm

looooooooooool.  Stats are the bottom line for a striker.  Just like keepers.  It doesn't matter that you looked good.  In the end, it comes down to goals allowed for a keeper and goals scored for a striker.  Now, if a keeper is getting shelled, you can excuse bad stats.  For a striker... he is reliant on service and opportunities.  Tevez is not suffering from bad service, a poor midfield or lack of opportunities...  he's just inefficient.  There aren't circumstances that can excuse why he's so inefficient.

And i would argue that the big reason Juve are out of CL is that Tevez couldn't take any of his opportunities in those games... especially in the one against Coopenhagen away.
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Post by Ion Creanga Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:43 pm

sportsczy wrote:looooooooooool.  Stats are the bottom line for a striker.  Just like keepers.  It doesn't matter that you looked good.  In the end, it comes down to goals allowed for a keeper and goals scored for a striker.  Now, if a keeper is getting shelled, you can excuse bad stats.  For a striker... he is reliant on service and opportunities.  Tevez is not suffering from bad service, a poor midfield or lack of opportunities...  he's just inefficient.  There aren't circumstances that can excuse why he's so inefficient.

And i would argue that the big reason Juve are out of CL is that Tevez couldn't take any of his opportunities in those games... especially in the one against Coopenhagen away.
Laughing and in terms of goal scored , tevez is better ... I don't see where are you going...

Yes, I agree that that in the Coppenhagen game, the incompetence in front of goal of Juve's players, including Tevez was ridicuolous ...

And i've seen Higuain missing big chances, at Napoli and Madrid too...
I agree that Higuain is a better finisher compared to Tevez, but it's not a big gap, and not based on your shots conversion rate... And who is the better player is debatable, for me is Tevez.
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Post by Uncanny Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:47 pm

DeviAngel wrote:
Uncanny wrote:I think tevez should have a place in Argentina's squad, but he is done with the national team.  I don't think it's a messi situation, this is dating back to when he threw a fit in the bayern game and then went to play golf for a long time.  While this was all going on, I think the Argentina fa president took this as something that shouldn't represent Argentina.  Plus tevez is way too popular to be benched, aguero is more than capable of taking it on after tevez.
With llorente, it will be a waste for Spain to take him.  As much as I like him, he isn't going to improve Spain's attack, and isn't going to be a game changer for Spain.

How can you say that he scored 2 goals against RM, 1 decisive for 2-2 , the other one for 1-1. Scored the opening goal against Napoli, The winning goal against Udinese and Chievo,Milan,Lazio, and a lot of opening and drawing goals. He won't be called up because they are to similar with Negredo

At club level he is doing great with juve and being tevez's strike partner. But in his national team, he may have had good games, but I can't really see him give Spain the edge over the current options. I think David villa was the only one to excel in the single striker role in Spain for the past few years. But since he's old for a footballer it will most likely be negredo, costa, and cesc. I agree negredo is similiar to llorente, so he will be overlooked. VDB does has a soft spot for villa and Torres, so I won't be surprised if I see their names too.
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Post by El Gunner Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:11 am

Tevez won't most probably. And tbh, I couldn't give 2 fecks if he makes the squad or not.

Llorente has a better chance. And yes, I'd want Llorente to make it along with Diego Costa and Negredo.
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Post by El Gunner Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:12 am

If Torres makes the Spain squad. :facepalm:
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Post by sportsczy Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:41 am

Ion Creanga wrote:
sportsczy wrote:looooooooooool. Stats are the bottom line for a striker. Just like keepers. It doesn't matter that you looked good. In the end, it comes down to goals allowed for a keeper and goals scored for a striker. Now, if a keeper is getting shelled, you can excuse bad stats. For a striker... he is reliant on service and opportunities. Tevez is not suffering from bad service, a poor midfield or lack of opportunities... he's just inefficient. There aren't circumstances that can excuse why he's so inefficient.

And i would argue that the big reason Juve are out of CL is that Tevez couldn't take any of his opportunities in those games... especially in the one against Coopenhagen away.
Laughing and in terms of goal scored , tevez is better ... I don't see where are you going...

Yes, I agree that that in the Coppenhagen game, the incompetence in front of goal of Juve's players, including Tevez was ridicuolous ...

And i've seen Higuain missing big chances, at Napoli and Madrid too...
I agree that Higuain is a better finisher compared to Tevez, but it's not a big gap, and not based on your shots conversion rate... And who is the better player is debatable, for me is Tevez.
no he's not lol. You can't just arbitrarily not include Europe and Cup because it doesn't fit your argument lol. Higuain has 20 goals and 10 assists this year while Tevez has 15 goals and 6 assists. Higuain missed over a month too due to injury...
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Post by DeviAngel Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:06 pm

Uncanny wrote:
DeviAngel wrote:
Uncanny wrote:I think tevez should have a place in Argentina's squad, but he is done with the national team.  I don't think it's a messi situation, this is dating back to when he threw a fit in the bayern game and then went to play golf for a long time.  While this was all going on, I think the Argentina fa president took this as something that shouldn't represent Argentina.  Plus tevez is way too popular to be benched, aguero is more than capable of taking it on after tevez.
With llorente, it will be a waste for Spain to take him.  As much as I like him, he isn't going to improve Spain's attack, and isn't going to be a game changer for Spain.

How can you say that he scored 2 goals against RM, 1 decisive for 2-2 , the other one for 1-1. Scored the opening goal against Napoli, The winning goal against Udinese and Chievo,Milan,Lazio, and a lot of opening and drawing goals. He won't be called up because they are to similar with Negredo

At club level he is doing great with juve and being tevez's strike partner.  But in his national team, he may have had good games, but I can't really see him give Spain the edge over the current options.  I think David villa was the only one to excel in the single striker role in Spain for the past few years.  But since he's old for a footballer it will most likely be negredo, costa, and cesc.  I agree negredo is similiar to llorente, so he will be overlooked.  VDB does has a soft spot for villa and Torres, so I won't be surprised if I see their names too.
Spain's biggest game changer is Torres and the most clutch player they have it may sound funny but its true. I still think Llorente should be in the squad not because he plays for Juve but because he is quality and he does great under pressure to but being similar to Negredo seems to be the main problem. I can't remember when the last time Spain had this kind of 'problems' they went from not having 1-2 strikers to having Negredo, Torres, Costa, Llorente, mm Fabergas ?
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Post by sportsczy Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:26 pm

They've had Negredo and Llorente... and Villa and Torres... not to mention Soldado before he turned to shat... for a long time.

VDB only trust Villa and Torres. When both these guys went down for various reasons, he turned to Cesc as opposed to the other CFs.

He just doesn't like slower, technically-challenged strikers. He'd rather play a more gifted AM as a false 9 then to force himself to play someone he doesn't rate...
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Post by sportsczy Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:38 pm

I'll add that i don't agree with VDB. You need a box presence...
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Post by Uncanny Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:13 pm

To an extent yea, Torres is their most clutch player, I can see him make the squad over llorente because if pace. He has options in costa and negredo for bit more aggressiveness so
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Post by Uncanny Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:14 pm

Watch Torres steal the golden boot for the tournament lmao
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Post by M99 Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:45 am

Uncanny wrote:Watch Torres steal the golden boot for the tournament lmao

Don't think so this time. No Tahiti or Ireland to stat pad against.
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Post by dostoevsky Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:49 am

M99 wrote:
Uncanny wrote:Watch Torres steal the golden boot for the tournament lmao

Don't think so this time. No Tahiti or Ireland to stat pad against.

Welcome to 'Straya, mate.
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Post by M99 Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:04 am

dostoevsky wrote:
M99 wrote:
Uncanny wrote:Watch Torres steal the golden boot for the tournament lmao

Don't think so this time. No Tahiti or Ireland to stat pad against.

Welcome to 'Straya, mate.

Bitch please, Mark Schwarzer got this.
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Post by dostoevsky Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:31 am

He's retired and Langerak and Jones are both extremely rusty despite their quality due to a lack of game time with their respective teams. Spain, Chile and the Netherlands will have a field day.
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