Euromaidan demonstrations & Russia's intervention in Ukraine

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Post by Il Diavolo Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:12 pm

On a slightly related note, Russia seems to be using the same excuse (defense of their own interests in foreign land) for their potential invasion of Ukraine. Is America in a position to criticize them over any such action given that they have done the same for so many years, I don't think so. As much they like to paint Russia as the "communist enemies of freedom and liberty and all that America stands for", what it really does is just shows their hypocrisy.
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Post by spanky Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:36 pm

@Il Diavolo wrote:On a slightly related note, Russia seems to be using the same excuse (defense of their own interests in foreign land) for their potential invasion of Ukraine. Is America in a position to criticize them over any such action given that they have done the same for so many years, I don't think so. As much they like to paint Russia as the "communist enemies of freedom and liberty and all that America stands for", what it really does is just shows their hypocrisy.

this
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:55 am

I would say it's slightly more complicated as Ukraine is not entirely foreign to Russia. Russians largely see Ukraine not only as an important buffer with the Western world but also as a territory of Russia. Crimea, in particular, was given to Ukraine as an autonomous region in celebration of Ukraine being part of the Russian Empire for 300 years. Many of its citizens speak and consider themselves Russian, and don't view Russia's military intervention as threatening to their lifestyle. Before the fall of the USSR it used to be a reciprocate relationship a well: my girlfriend's family is originally from Kiev and they left Ukraine before the USSR fell. They call themselves Russian, not Ukrainians.

So yeah, I wouldn't say it's equivalent to the US invading Vietnam, Korea or Iraq for national interests, the relationships between the two countries are too intertwined.

That being said the US can't criticize Russia and draw 'red lines' and then ask for its help with Syria and Iran.
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Post by Il Diavolo Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:04 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:I would say it's slightly more complicated as Ukraine is not entirely foreign to Russia. Russians largely see Ukraine not only as an important buffer with the Western world but also as a territory of Russia. Crimea, in particular, was given to Ukraine as an autonomous region in celebration of Ukraine being part of the Russian Empire for 300 years. Many of its citizens speak and consider themselves Russian, and don't view Russia's military intervention as threatening to their lifestyle. Before the fall of the USSR it used to be a reciprocate relationship a well: my girlfriend's family is originally from Kiev and they left Ukraine before the USSR fell. They call themselves Russian, not Ukrainians.

So yeah, I wouldn't say it's equivalent to the US invading Vietnam, Korea or Iraq for national interests, the relationships between the two countries are too intertwined.

That being said the US can't criticize Russia and draw 'red lines' and then ask for its help with Syria and Iran.

I agree, the Russia-Ukraine situation is different. Especially Crimea, where Russia already has a huge naval base (in Sevastopol), about half of Crimea's population are Russian and Crimea's Prime Minister is also a Russian citizen. But then there also a lot of Crimean Tartars living there and they are fiercely anti-Russian, since they were expelled from Russia by Stalin back in his days. Also, Ukraine's population itself is very divided on this issue, with many favoring the EU (i.e. against Russia) and others in favor of Russia. So it's complicated.

I was just pointing out the fact that Obama came out and said that "there will be costs" if Russia continues aggression towards Ukraine, while they themselves continue to do so all over the world (on a bigger scale, in my opinion), and that is just double standards.
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Post by Art Morte Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:46 pm

Euromaidan demonstrations & Russia's intervention in Ukraine Visit-russia-before-russia-visits-you


Last edited by Art Morte on Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:42 am; edited 3 times in total
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:25 am

Interesting article making the rounds of facebook:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/russia-vladimir-putin-the-west-104134.html#.UxUdPM6wP_Y
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Post by RealGunner Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:32 am

Putin’s Request to Deploy Troops to Crimea Was Based on a Staged Shooting and Fake Victims

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/03/putins-request-to-deploy-troops-to-crimea-was-based-on-a-staged-shooting-and-fake-victims/
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Post by Swanhends Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:08 am

Putin Laughing

Homie's catching an economic fade to the jaw

Russia's largest index down over 10%, 60 billion worth of value wiped off Russian companies, AND they had to start propping up their currency cause it was sinking like the titanic....ITS ONLY BEEN ONE DAY rofl

Smooth move there pleighboi
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Post by Art Morte Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:49 am

Russia are using the exact same excuse as they did in the Georgia war in 2008, protection of their people in a neighbouring country. The result then was South Ossetia and Abhkazia gaining "indepence" that was and is recondgised only by a handful of nations. Effectively they became part of Russia, as they are dependent on financial and military support from Russia. It could be that Putin wants to do the same with Crimea now - although apparently there are a strong pro-Russia elements in big border cities of Donetsk and Kharkiv, too, so we'll see where this is going to go.

But Russia just really can't stand the West coming close to their borders in these areas that used to be part of the Soviet Union.
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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:04 pm

Russia to Susan Rice:

“We have noted the expert assessment of Susan Rice based on multiple cases when American troops were sent to various places of the word, especially those where the US administration believed the norms of Western democracy were in danger, or where the local regimes were getting out of hand,” a Russian Foreign Ministry source told news agencies on Monday.

The source added that, “We expect that national security adviser would be giving to the US leadership the same advice on the mistaken path of the use of force if it decides to conduct a new intervention.”


 rofl

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Post by Pedram Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:08 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/opinion/mccain-a-return-to-us-realism.html

McCain. rofl

Guy is using every opportunity to slam Obama's policy.
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Post by Swanhends Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:37 am

In John McCains defense: war/murder/death/destruction is the only way he can get a boner anymore
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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:50 pm

@Pedram wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/opinion/mccain-a-return-to-us-realism.html

McCain. rofl

Guy is using every opportunity to slam Obama's policy.

So much propaganda in that letter.

Anyways, I don't think McCain typically uses every opportunity to slam Obama. I think he's fair in the sense that he advocates for what he believes in and doesn't hesitate to praise Obama when he feels he did something right. This is from what I have seen.

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Post by RealGunner Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:54 pm

TURKEY: under Ottoman Empire treaty with Catherine the Great if Crimea declares independence it returns to Turkey

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/17/turkey-under-ottoman-empire-treaty-with-catherine-the-great-if-crimea-declares-independence-it-returns-to-turkey/

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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:49 pm

@RealGunner wrote:TURKEY: under Ottoman Empire treaty with Catherine the Great if Crimea declares independence it returns to Turkey

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/17/turkey-under-ottoman-empire-treaty-with-catherine-the-great-if-crimea-declares-independence-it-returns-to-turkey/


Agreements are meaningless if you can't enforce it.

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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:52 pm

A little amused no one has updated this thread.

The mayor of Ukraine's second largest city was shot by an unknown gunman, most probably by one of the Russian-backed militants who have been causing havoc in Ukraine. Meanwhile, Russian troops are amassing the Ukrainian border. It's clear Putin wants this territory (he referred to Ukraine as "New Russia" in an interview) but the lengths to which he will go to acquire it remains unknown. Whether he takes the big step of moving the 40,000 Russian troops into Ukraine remains to be seen.

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Post by Art Morte Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:26 pm

This thing seems like it's slowly building up and building up... There was that agreement reached on dissolving the situation only, what, a week or two ago, but now it's back to more unrest in eastern Ukraine and new sanctions on Russia. Doesn't look very good.
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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:49 am

Obama ought to take this situation a little more seriously. Economic sanctions only go so far. This quote sums it up:

"So he cannot fly to drink with U.S. energy executives," said one senior Russian oil trader. "But otherwise business will continue."

However, it is positive that he plans to move thousands of US troops into that region. In addition, he needs to have the balls to respond if Russia Army moves into Ukraine (not that small, disguised fragments have not already) because from an US perspective an invasion will be very bad.

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Post by RedOranje Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:22 am

So if it's anything to do with the Middle East, or Far East, or South America, or Central America, or North Africa, or South Africa then the USA needs to stay away and stop interfering full-stop, never mind simply cutting back physical meddling and maintaining UN approved sanctions and such... but if it's Eastern Europe (bar Bosnia et al) then the United States isn't doing enough and should obviously be taking more direct action than sanctions? Alright then.
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Post by Pedram Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:30 am

US has no responsibility to protect Ukraine, they aren't a NATO nation. they should just ramp up the sanctions a bit, not visa and travel bans of course but sanctioning their economic sector would hit them really hard.
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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:38 am

@Pedram wrote:US has no responsibility to protect Ukraine, they aren't a NATO nation.

The Americans cannot ignore Russia.

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Post by Pedram Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:01 am

@El Chelsea Fuerte wrote:The Americans cannot ignore Russia.

They ignored them when Russia attacked Georgia in 2008.

But anyway i did not say US should just turn a blind eye and allow Russia to fully swallow Ukraine, i'm saying there are other ways to influence Russia's moves other than using military power.

Let's face it, Russia's economy is more vulnerable than their military, their currency is already shrinking and they're risking a recession. if enough pressure is applied on it it will probably force Putin to rethink, he's not that stupid to sacrifice his economy for something that isn't worth it.
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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:05 am

@Pedram wrote:
@El Chelsea Fuerte wrote:The Americans cannot ignore Russia.

They ignored them when Russia attacked Georgia in 2008.

But anyway i did not say US should just turn a blind eye and allow Russia to fully swallow Ukraine, i'm saying there are other ways to influence Russia's moves other than using military power.

Let's face it, Russia's economy is more vulnerable than their military, their currency is already shrinking and they're risking a recession. if enough pressure is applied on it it will probably force Putin to rethink, he's not that stupid to sacrifice his economy for something that isn't worth it.

If the situation can be resolved non-militarily then obviously that's for the best.

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Post by Pedram Sat May 03, 2014 1:33 am

Well this is getting ugly, apparently 32 people died after a fire was set at a trade union building.
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Post by Art Morte Sat May 03, 2014 12:28 pm

Russia saying there will be "catastrophic" consequences.
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