We are too dependant on counter-attacks

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We are too dependant on counter-attacks Empty We are too dependant on counter-attacks

Post by Art Morte Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:02 pm

I'm a fan of counter-attacks, as I think that you're able to find more space, time and surprise-element when you can attack fast against a reactive defense rather than slow against a proactive defense. We've also scored the most goals in the league right now.

However, this first-half against Southampton is a stark reminder of our over-dependency on counters. We're lucky to be leading this game at HT and if we continue the way we've been playing, I don't see us winning it if not for a stroke of luck.

We are supposed to have the players to keep the ball. Today, Allen was given a start ahead of Sterling, a change that supposedly should've given us more control. Sturridge, Suarez and Coutinho are excellent dribblers, passers and keepers of the ball. Yet if it's not a counter-attack, we can do no sort of attack. It's not just this game, but this first-half against Southampton is as good an example as it gets on our dependency on counters.

Our full-backs aren't helping the situation; When you see Flanagan swinging his leg in an attempt to pass it 10+ metres forward, you just know it's going to be off. Johnson looks satisfied to stay stationary and pass it backwards.

But overall we should have the personnel to play other styles than solely on the counter. Up to Rodgers to instruct our players to drop deeper in these situations.
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Post by Red Alert Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:05 pm

You can't dominate a game if your midfield is unbalanced.

We have no defensive minded midfielder in the team with Lucas out. (Gerrard IS NOT playing the controller role.)

Counter attacking is the only way to go right now... and I've been highly critical since round 1 of this season.
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Post by Red Alert Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:08 pm

Also, Johnson passing backwards (as you say in OP) is keeping possession and not really playing counter attacking football. hmm

No but seriously he's always been defence first at LB and naturally attacking RB. Why Flanagan has to be dropped... or at the very least switch sides but Cissokho is in better form.
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Post by stevieg8 Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:56 pm

Shocker, we made some adjustments at halftime and did fine the rest of the way, winning comfortably.

Stop overreacting to 45 minutes of football.
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Post by McAgger Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:56 pm

Terrible timing Art
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Post by Red Alert Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:00 pm

GL jynx ffs. Praise Art we got the 3 points today, Soton were so wasteful infront of goal.
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Post by stevieg8 Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:28 pm

Red Alert wrote:GL jynx ffs. Praise Art we got the 3 points today, Soton were so wasteful infront of goal.

:bow: Art's reverse jinx :bow:

how could i ever doubt you Proud
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Post by Art Morte Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:00 am

stevieg8 wrote:Shocker, we made some adjustments at halftime and did fine the rest of the way, winning comfortably.

Stop overreacting to 45 minutes of football.

McAgger wrote:Terrible timing Art

I made the thread because this wasn't the first time by no means we looked short of ideas when fast attacks weren't working. Like I said, the first-half was a good example of our over-dependency on counters; however, in the second half we were doing much better. But I don't think anyone can argue that we were the better team in the first-half nor that we haven't been overly dependent on counter-attacks before.

Obviously winning 3 - 0 in Southampton is a superb result in the end, but I'm afraid we will have situations in our remaining games where we will struggle if we're only trying to play on the counter.
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Post by stevieg8 Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:45 am

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with your basic idea. I struggle to see how we have ever lacked for ideas when we have the highest goal total after 28 games ever and are averaging over 2 goals a game.

When was the last time we were shut out? I know our last few losses were Arsenal (cup game), Chelsea Away and Man City Away, and we scored one in each of those.

I'm really not too worried about our attack in any of these last ten games.
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Post by Fahim89 Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:20 am

Now even this is a problem!!!!!!  :facepalm: :facepalm: 
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Post by BeautifulGame Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:34 am

Top goalscorers in Europe -
73 - #LFC
71 - Real Madrid
70 - Barcelona
69 - Man City
66 - Bayern Munich
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Post by iftikhar Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:34 am

BeautifulGame wrote:Top goalscorers in Europe -
73 - #LFC (28)
71 - Real Madrid (25)
70 - Barcelona (25)
69 - Man City (26)
66 - Bayern Munich (23)

Just to be fair to the 'mighty' teams  tongue 
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Post by Art Morte Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:35 pm

stevieg8 wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with your basic idea.  I struggle to see how we have ever lacked for ideas when we have the highest goal total after 28 games ever and are averaging over 2 goals a game.

When was the last time we were shut out?  I know our last few losses were Arsenal (cup game), Chelsea Away and Man City Away, and we scored one in each of those.

I'm really not too worried about our attack in any of these last ten games.

BeautifulGame wrote:Top goalscorers in Europe -
73 - #LFC
71 - Real Madrid
70 - Barcelona
69 - Man City
66 - Bayern Munich

I don't mean only our attack when talking about our dependency on counter-attacks. Obviously I'm very happy with the number of goals we've been scoring.

But let's look at some examples.

The 4 - 0 trashing of Everton. That was a fantastic performance, we scored four and could have had another four, our breaks on them were always looking dangerous and worked really well. Everton had more possession, but it was totally controlled by us, they couldn't get anything done with it.

The first-half against Southampton. The same game plan, but it really wasn't working. We weren't able to counter effectively nor contain Southampton's possession to harmless passing, they were continuously putting the ball in danger areas and asking questions. Now, if we had another approach than counter-attacks, i.e. play keep the ball, something we should have players for, I reckon we would have performed better and not risked a Southampton equaliser as greatly as we did.

The 1 - 1 draw at West Brom could serve another example of how our counter-attacking style didn't really come off. And I'm not saying we should abandon it, of course not, it should be our primary tactic, but I think it would help us in some games if we switched to possession-based approach, told the forwards to drop deeper and play keep the ball. Because when we play on the counter and let the other team have lots and lots of possession, it becomes a bit of an issue in defense, not necessarily in attack, if our opponents have the attacking quality of Southampton - or even better. For it's no good blaming the back-four or the CB pair when we concede goals if we are constantly under pressure. I wouldn't have blamed our defense if Southampton had scored yesterday, I would have blamed the midfield, because Southampton were able to work our defenders so much that the probability of them scoring was just increasing.


I want us to keep playing the way we have, but I'd like to see a possession-based style, too, for those moments when the other team is looking much likelier to score - which was the case in the first-half against Southampton, for instance. Especially since we should have the players with the ability to play keep the ball and a manager who has used it before.
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Post by Red Alert Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:23 pm

So what you're saying is you can't counter attack teams that play the counter attack? hmm

I already mentioned that like 20 weeks back. But I get blasted for bringing them up because it happened "months ago" (and a couple of weeks ago against Aston Villa/West Brom). :coffee:
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Post by Art Morte Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:18 pm

Red Alert wrote:So what you're saying is you can't counter attack teams that play the counter attack? hmm 

I don't think it's quite as simple as that, but it could be part of it.

There are times when playing solely on the counter isn't the best tactic to use, especially when you have the ability to play another style as well, so I just find it a bit limited of us to stick to the counter-attacking style even at times when it leaves us looking second-best on the pitch - like that 1st half yesterday.

However, for the vast majority of games we should stick to the counter tactics, because they're obviously working really well for us most of the time.
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Post by Red Alert Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:48 am

Is this just another thread to ask us why we got rid of Carroll? :coffee:
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Post by Fahim89 Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:30 am

Red Alert wrote:Is this just another thread to ask us why we got rid of Carroll? :coffee:

 rofl 
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Post by Art Morte Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:12 pm

Red Alert wrote:Is this just another thread to ask us why we got rid of Carroll? :coffee:

Calling for a short-passing, possession-based style to have as an alternative = Carroll? hmm


Should never have sold the guy, though :coffee:
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Post by Adit Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:19 pm

Make a thread when team is losing

--------> Knee jerk

Make a thread when team is winning

-------->spoiled, we won that is what matters.

It is impossible to criticize it seems.
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Post by Helmer Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:33 pm

yes, not completely but a little and that is fine with me, it was only Southampton we failed/decided to (not) keep the ball otherwise we were doing OK against Fulham and Swansea, nothing to get worried though

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Post by DeletedUser#1 Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:25 pm

Just in case people didn't know, it was our game plan vs. Saints.

We knew they press us high up the pitch, and their fullbacks are the one providing the width and will be in our half, so as Gerrard mentioned, BR instructed Suarez and Sturridge to stay up to ALL game, to create 2 vs 2. situation on counter with balls over the top.

That way, we stay compact with a narrow defense and congfested midfield where we can steal the ball from Saints, and then release SAS against Fonte and Lovren in 2 vs. 2 situations. It didn't work as well as planned in first half due to Coutinho stinking the place and not carrying the ball well in counter attacking situations and with his passes, but with Sterling in the same position, it was amazing and we really could have scored another 3 goals.

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Post by Red Alert Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:09 am

Art Morte wrote:
Red Alert wrote:Is this just another thread to ask us why we got rid of Carroll? :coffee:

Calling for a short-passing, possession-based style to have as an alternative = Carroll? hmm


Should never have sold the guy, though :coffee:

We need Lucas to play a short-passing, possesion-based style. :coffee:

There's a reason our whole defence and midfield sits deep and we hit on the counter nowadays. hmm
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Post by Red Alert Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:10 am

Adit wrote:Make a thread when team is losing

--------> Knee jerk

Make a thread when team is winning

-------->spoiled, we won that is what matters.

It is impossible to criticize it seems.

What are you on about? rofl

*inb4 a RAWK comment*
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Post by stevieg8 Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:41 am

Seems a bit strange, considering how harsh this section is on our team... I can get where you're coming from since we'll routinely tell each other to tone down the criticism, but considering we have to do so it doesn't seem like we silence dissent here.
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Post by stevieg8 Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:42 am

Not to mention that this thread was made while the team was winning, not losing.
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