QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
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QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
Neither.
This is one of those times where the modern media really fails us as football fans in explaining exactly what has happened at Manchester United. I often complain that they focus too much on irrelevance and not enough on the actual business of football behind the scenes and this is an example of where it could have helped.
I'm not sure what anybody else was expecting here but Man United are right about where I thought they would be. I think they'll finish higher than this but their form is somewhat predictable.
United as a Club has completely fell apart and it is the job of David Moyes to rebuild it. It has fell apart because the Club in the modern era was built entirely to Ferguson's exacting standards and methods. Every single person in every department of the Club knew what they were doing every day and what the ultimate point was.
Clubs falling apart after the movement of a Czar isn't new. United fell apart after Busby left, Liverpool got worse the more contrived the boot room system became. It's natural.
I think United fans should remember the words of Ferguson before he left. He's a proper football man, as is David Moyes, and they both know the scale of the task Moyes has undertaken and the time it will take to bear fruit. United can either studiously water their crops over time to create a vast sustainable empire once again that will provide riches for generations or they can dump nuclear waste on their land and grow tomacco.
For me, the real test of the Glazers as owners starts today. You can talk about money and whatever but to most people it's an irrelevance, United have been ultra successful and the manager has been given what he wanted. So far so good for the Glazers. The test starts right now because we discover whether they are the seasoned and patient businessmen that the Edwards family were or just another kneejerk bunch of twats who are sacking managers on ridiculous timescales.
I think Moyes has certainly made mistakes, or rather a single mistake. I think he tried to transition too quickly from Ferguson's staff to his own staff in the first team which created unneccesary pressure on himself. This can be forgiven however as I see what he was trying to accomplish. He knew that this would be a difficult period of transition and he wants to snap it as quickly as possible rather than do it piece by piece. Managers often do lack patience in transition, AVB had the same problem at Chelsea. Funnily, Ferguson did the same mistake when he first joined too.
I see people who have called Moyes unambitious because he has said that United played well when they didn't. This is a man who had a job for life in a stable Premier League team where he was beloved and he decided to pack that in and move to the most famous Club in the world and succeed the best ever manager in the game, to take on a rebuilding job the like of which has never been done in the modern era of football. Unambitious? Do me a favour.
You see, Manchester United was a club built in Ferguson's own image and everybody took their lead from him. He was an imposing figure yet if you meet him he had this working class charm that made you want to fight for him. David Moyes is a similar figure but doesn't yet covet the same respect and loyalty from everybody at Manchester United. There's no possible way that he could, that anybody could, most of the people at United were directly employed by Ferguson or employed whilst he was the manager. In time, Moyes will have the same respect bestowed on him, that's all that it needs at the minute, just some time for him to get his feet under the table.
Some fans believe that David Moyes isn't the man for United. I challenge the idea that they even understand what United is as a Club. David Moyes is pretty much the prototypical Manchester United manager, if you had to walk away and design a man who would manage them, it is him. He's fierce, he's tactically well versed, he has a superhuman work ethic, he believes in youth promotion, he plays with wingers, he inspires loyalty and fight from everybody around him. Those who don't see this have never been to Everton away under his tenure there. Moyes managed to turn that place into a lion's den in how ferocious the atmosphere was and how the team played, and make no mistake this developed under him and will wane without him, managers have a major effect on atmospheres as any United fan will tell you (or City fan for that matter), he will do the same to Old Trafford given time.
So I suppose the problem here is that fans have underestimated the mammoth of a task that Moyes has to accomplish and pundits have over-simplified it. It will take Moyes several years to get United built in his own image and it will be better off for it rather than start some roundabout of managerial changes. And I warn United fans, I'm a fan of a Club that has had probably 30 managers in the past 30 years. Once you start down this path of swapping in and out managers, you can never come back from it.
One last thing to note. I find it interesting how many people when this was announced said things like "Moyes will need a transition time" but have now decided that he should be gone in January. Transition time is a term used to denote the time it takes to sweep away the mentality of the old regime and bring in your own mentality. Essentially, how long it takes to forget the old manager and buy into the thoughts of the new even if it conflicts with what the old manager would say. For a manager who casts the shadow of Ferguson, this will take 3 or 4 years, not 3 or 4 months. Bobby Charlton, Alex Ferguson and others at United understand this so appointed a manager who can rebuild United and have the wide shoulders it requires to bear the load of expectation from the fans and media. They think they found their right man in David Moyes and all piss taking aside, so do I. I hope that they both fight his corner in the boardroom and I'm sure they will. These people understand United as a Club, understand what makes it successful and understand what makes it special.
Moyes will be fine if the fans just shut up and let him do his job.
Now, back to pissing taking.
http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1uig2l/question_is_david_moyes_underperforming_as/ceinr8j
A City fan having more reason than everybody else? Discuss.
Zero- Starlet
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
He does make a good argument in favour of Moyes, but some of the results have been terrible, transition or not.
Granted, injuries have *bleep* us a lot this season, and with a more motivated and fit RVP I think we would still be in all competition and maybe 3-4 points higher than our current standing.
Granted, injuries have *bleep* us a lot this season, and with a more motivated and fit RVP I think we would still be in all competition and maybe 3-4 points higher than our current standing.
azzurres- Prospect
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
I'm a fan of a Club that has had probably 30 managers in the past 30 years. Once you start down this path of swapping in and out managers, you can never come back from it.
This is the part I'm most afraid of, even if Moyes doesn't work out, at least we don't become this type of club.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
Busby Babe wrote:I'm a fan of a Club that has had probably 30 managers in the past 30 years. Once you start down this path of swapping in and out managers, you can never come back from it.
This is the part I'm most afraid of, even if Moyes doesn't work out, at least we don't become this type of club.
Yup this is what worries me the most if we sack Moyes now. How long until we find someone good enough ? And then fire him when the results aren't there ?
I will take 3-4 year without winning anything if in the long run we end up almost like UTD under SAF. But that's the thing, we don't even know if it is going to work out in the end.
Pretty bad situation to be in.
azzurres- Prospect
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
The argument against giving a manager 3 or 4 years of barren spells is thatit differs from club to club, in terms of expectations. For a huge club like ours, we need instant results and we need CL football. In this day and age that is imperative.
There is nothing that Moyes has shown in his spell that merits us giving him years to succeed and mould his own side. Our playing style is dull, we play with no clear game plan other than knocking it out wide. It was the same under Everton, they were known to be workman like and played crosses after crosses. When that failed, plan B was to push Fellaini up top and hoofing it to him for knock downs. It is nightmarish envisaging United employing similar tactics. The similarities between us and Everton are becoming too glaring. We are actually turning into Everton, but unlike his Everton teams, we are more easier to beat
imo it will be a huge risk.
There is nothing that Moyes has shown in his spell that merits us giving him years to succeed and mould his own side. Our playing style is dull, we play with no clear game plan other than knocking it out wide. It was the same under Everton, they were known to be workman like and played crosses after crosses. When that failed, plan B was to push Fellaini up top and hoofing it to him for knock downs. It is nightmarish envisaging United employing similar tactics. The similarities between us and Everton are becoming too glaring. We are actually turning into Everton, but unlike his Everton teams, we are more easier to beat
imo it will be a huge risk.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
RED wrote:We are actually turning into Everton, but unlike his Everton teams, we are more easier to beat
ahahaahahah that is actually very true, pretty funny nonetheless.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
I'm actually clinging into a thin layer of hope for Moyes to finally get this team clicking even at the end of the season but I am finding it hard to as we play horribly and lose each match.
Santa this is not what I wished last Christmas.
Santa this is not what I wished last Christmas.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
After Sunday, I was pretty sure I wanted him to get sacked, but I knew January was his chance so I thought lets wait a little while longer. I also didn't want us to be the type of club that sacks a manager every 6 months, but you have to draw a line somewhere.
We play Swansea and Chelsea next. Chelsea is pretty much a loss, meaning will be 8 points a drift from 4th, that's not good enough. I want him to be sacked, didn't think I would say that, but he's negative approach to everything is the reason to it, and I don't see it changing. It's time to cut our losses.
We play Swansea and Chelsea next. Chelsea is pretty much a loss, meaning will be 8 points a drift from 4th, that's not good enough. I want him to be sacked, didn't think I would say that, but he's negative approach to everything is the reason to it, and I don't see it changing. It's time to cut our losses.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
This was written after the Spurs match. Stats are not everything, but this is exactly how it looks on the pitch too. The players are getting accustomed to Moyes' tactics, they just happen to be shit tactics.
http://www1.skysports.com/news-wire/11667
EDIT: One last thing, from a Preston fan.
Manchester United top the Premier League for crosses per game, swinging in an average of 26.65 of them in their 20 league games so far this season. In the New Year's Day defeat at home to Tottenham, they took the policy to new levels. A whopping 47 crosses were lobbed goalwards for Vlad Chiriches and Michael Dawson to deal with. That was a United high for the season and more than in any game they played last term. It isn't proving an efficient use of the ball in the final third.
This is precisely the area of the field where the best teams will play an intricate through-ball to find a breakthrough. Tellingly, that's exactly what the impressive Januzaj did to create Danny Welbeck's goal on Wednesday. It leads to better quality opportunities and United are eschewing plenty of them: 423 of the 533 crosses hurled in have failed to find their target (again, a Premier League high). That's 423 chances to do something better in the last third that have been wasted.
It's a disjointed tactic too. Firstly, an emphasis on crossing necessitates quality in wide areas. While United have the numbers, the world-class wingers of the past are missing. Moyes' team has become wilfully reliant on the most mercurial figures in the squad, with the ruthless Robin van Persie reduced to the role of waiting in the box for the ball to arrive from the flanks.
Not only is this supply a problem but these wingers are not a direct source of goals either. Ronaldo was a revelation, Beckham averaged more than seven goals per season and Giggs netted 81 goals in his first 12 Premier League campaigns. In the 1994/95 season, Kanchelskis was even the top scorer. In 2013/14, Giggs, Ashley Young, Nani, Antonio Valencia and Wilfried Zaha have contributed just two goals between them. Only young Januzaj - with three goals - has scored more than once.
The lack of goals from wide areas mean that goalscoring contributions from midfield are more important than ever - and here too there are problems. Michael Carrick is content in his role as a sitting midfielder but his regular partner Thomas Cleverley is showing little sign of developing into the regular scorer that his position surely demands. He has netted just one goal in 26 appearances for club and country so far this season.
At least that's one more than summer signing Marouane Fellaini. The Belgian midfielder has a reputation as a goalscorer after hitting 11 in the league for Everton last year but he has made a disappointing start at United. He is goalless after 11 games for the Red Devils with little more than a red card to show for his efforts. Most alarmingly, it seems that Moyes might envision Fellaini in a deeper role akin to that of Carrick with little responsibility to share the goalscoring burden.
Flawed
This is an issue. Without runners bursting onto the ball from midfield, the tactical approach is fundamentally flawed. With nobody for the strikers to lay the ball off to and no late runs into the box to worry defenders, United must win the initial header... or else. Wayne Rooney has nine goals this season; Van Persie and Welbeck seven each. But opponents know that if they take care of the forwards then the job is effectively done.
Much of the focus for Manchester United supporters this January will be on finding that one midfielder who can transform the team's fortunes. Spanish duo Thiago Alcantara and Cesc Fabregas were missed in the summer and now there is hope that Borussia Dortmund's Ilkay Gundogan can be the difference maker. But how can any midfielder make a huge impact when the team's tactics don't involve playing through the middle of the pitch?
United currently rank bottom of the Premier League for the percentage of their attacking play that goes through the central zone of the field. Last season they were up in eighth. If it's debatable whether that statistic should be interpreted as a negative, consider the company they are keeping - the next three teams on the list are Hull, West Ham and Stoke. This is not a template for a successful style of play.
Is that a product of not having a top-class midfielder at the club or is it just the way Moyes wants his team set up to play? Having spent £27.5million on a central midfielder in the summer, there is a real danger of throwing good money after bad. As a result, perhaps the biggest fear for Manchester United fans is that they are chasing a solution on the pitch to a problem that is standing on their touchline.
http://www1.skysports.com/news-wire/11667
EDIT: One last thing, from a Preston fan.
As a PNE fan I've seen Moyes progress in his managerial career but he doesn't seem capable of changing from his early days at deepdale. I've watched United closely in their last four games and similarities between this United team and his Preston team 12-13 years ago which is astounding. Things that cropped up then and now 1. Every man back when defending set piece (asking for more pressure) 2. Over-reliant on wingers/full back for creation 3. Central midfield well too deep to effect game positively 4. Slow predictable build up 5. Substitutes too late in game
Busby Babe- First Team
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
BB, that is scary mate. Everything in that post of yours screams why Moyes is the wrong man and was always the wrong man for the job.
The man's tactics inspires no confidence at all. His methods are so outdated, it's not even funny.
Crosses, crosses, crosses. Wingers and full backs. Defensive and cautious football. That is Moyes summed up.
And the funny thing about those stats from the Spurs game is that even when those crosses were failing to meet a Utd player, due to Val's incompetence at crossing a ball, the United players were still sprading the ball to him at any given moment. We had nothing going through the middle.
And Valencia, and Young for that matter, do get themselves in good positions most times, but their final balls are so dissapointing. And it's clear we need to try something else, maybe a new formation? Why not start Januzaj on the right so we don't have to stomach Valencia's sight, yet Moyes still persists in starting Valencia every game.
Moyes doesn't have the balls or confidence to try something new. With him, It's a case of shooting in the dark and hoping one of the shots hits it's target.
It's a depressing statistic and clearly highlights why we are struggling so badly for creativity. Set pieces is genuinely our biggest threat right now when it comes to scoring goals.
The man's tactics inspires no confidence at all. His methods are so outdated, it's not even funny.
Crosses, crosses, crosses. Wingers and full backs. Defensive and cautious football. That is Moyes summed up.
And the funny thing about those stats from the Spurs game is that even when those crosses were failing to meet a Utd player, due to Val's incompetence at crossing a ball, the United players were still sprading the ball to him at any given moment. We had nothing going through the middle.
And Valencia, and Young for that matter, do get themselves in good positions most times, but their final balls are so dissapointing. And it's clear we need to try something else, maybe a new formation? Why not start Januzaj on the right so we don't have to stomach Valencia's sight, yet Moyes still persists in starting Valencia every game.
Moyes doesn't have the balls or confidence to try something new. With him, It's a case of shooting in the dark and hoping one of the shots hits it's target.
It's a depressing statistic and clearly highlights why we are struggling so badly for creativity. Set pieces is genuinely our biggest threat right now when it comes to scoring goals.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
Busby Babe wrote:
EDIT: One last thing, from a Preston fan.As a PNE fan I've seen Moyes progress in his managerial career but he doesn't seem capable of changing from his early days at deepdale. I've watched United closely in their last four games and similarities between this United team and his Preston team 12-13 years ago which is astounding. Things that cropped up then and now 1. Every man back when defending set piece (asking for more pressure) 2. Over-reliant on wingers/full back for creation 3. Central midfield well too deep to effect game positively 4. Slow predictable build up 5. Substitutes too late in game
He is nowhere near good enough for a top club That is his limit. Looking at that, you can see his footballing philosophy hasn't changed at all. That's his comfort zone and we are seeing it transmitting through United, all that turgid football is the make up of him and his mid table coaching staff.
Moyes has his qualities. Like turning Everton into a hard to beat team that were always in the top half without hardly spending any money. He could express himself, put his head down and not really worry about too much expectations other than making sure Everton were in the top half come the end of the season. But the Utd job is far too big for him and it is showing week by week. He looks like he's ageing by 10 years every time he steps out onto the dug out.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
RED wrote:Busby Babe wrote:
EDIT: One last thing, from a Preston fan.As a PNE fan I've seen Moyes progress in his managerial career but he doesn't seem capable of changing from his early days at deepdale. I've watched United closely in their last four games and similarities between this United team and his Preston team 12-13 years ago which is astounding. Things that cropped up then and now 1. Every man back when defending set piece (asking for more pressure) 2. Over-reliant on wingers/full back for creation 3. Central midfield well too deep to effect game positively 4. Slow predictable build up 5. Substitutes too late in game
He is nowhere near good enough for a top club That is his limit. Looking at that, you can see his footballing philosophy hasn't changed at all. That's his comfort zone and we are seeing it transmitting through United, all that turgid football is the make up of him and his mid table coaching staff.
Moyes has his qualities. Like turning Everton into a hard to beat team that were always in the top half without hardly spending any money. He could express himself, put his head down and not really worry about too much expectations other than making sure Everton were in the top half come the end of the season. But the Utd job is far too big for him and it is showing week by week. He looks like he's ageing by 10 years every time he steps out onto the dug out.
What's worse is that Preston North End were a league 1/championship side while he was there. Forget mid-table, we're playing a style of football for teams at least a division below us.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
That was a great post from the Reddit guy
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
Busby Babe wrote:RED wrote:Busby Babe wrote:
EDIT: One last thing, from a Preston fan.
He is nowhere near good enough for a top club That is his limit. Looking at that, you can see his footballing philosophy hasn't changed at all. That's his comfort zone and we are seeing it transmitting through United, all that turgid football is the make up of him and his mid table coaching staff.
Moyes has his qualities. Like turning Everton into a hard to beat team that were always in the top half without hardly spending any money. He could express himself, put his head down and not really worry about too much expectations other than making sure Everton were in the top half come the end of the season. But the Utd job is far too big for him and it is showing week by week. He looks like he's ageing by 10 years every time he steps out onto the dug out.
What's worse is that Preston North End were a league 1/championship side while he was there. Forget mid-table, we're playing a style of football for teams at least a division below us.
I would have paid top dollar to be a fly on the wall in the room that had Bobby Charlton and SAF after yesterday's defeat.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
Busby Babe wrote:After Sunday, I was pretty sure I wanted him to get sacked, but I knew January was his chance so I thought lets wait a little while longer. I also didn't want us to be the type of club that sacks a manager every 6 months, but you have to draw a line somewhere.
We play Swansea and Chelsea next. Chelsea is pretty much a loss, meaning will be 8 points a drift from 4th, that's not good enough. I want him to be sacked, didn't think I would say that, but he's negative approach to everything is the reason to it, and I don't see it changing. It's time to cut our losses.
okay who will we bring in if we sack him ?
What if the new manager is also unlike SAF. It seems like our players only know to play for SAF. And I dont think there is another manager currently who commands respect and displays the same kinda charisma and can extract the maximum outta players as SAF . Perhaps Mourinho has that qualities. But I cant see any other.
Theres another option. We can sack him now. Get a new coach. Along with that we need to part ways with all these players who have played only under SAF. If they cant motivate themselves to play for moyes how can we say for sure they will be able to do that for another manager.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
Lumiere_Blanche wrote:Busby Babe wrote:After Sunday, I was pretty sure I wanted him to get sacked, but I knew January was his chance so I thought lets wait a little while longer. I also didn't want us to be the type of club that sacks a manager every 6 months, but you have to draw a line somewhere.
We play Swansea and Chelsea next. Chelsea is pretty much a loss, meaning will be 8 points a drift from 4th, that's not good enough. I want him to be sacked, didn't think I would say that, but he's negative approach to everything is the reason to it, and I don't see it changing. It's time to cut our losses.
okay who will we bring in if we sack him ?
What if the new manager is also unlike SAF. It seems like our players only know to play for SAF. And I dont think there is another manager currently who commands respect and displays the same kinda charisma and can extract the maximum outta players as SAF . Perhaps Mourinho has that qualities. But I cant see any other.
Theres another option. We can sack him now. Get a new coach. Along with that we need to part ways with all these players who have played only under SAF. If they cant motivate themselves to play for moyes how can we say for sure they will be able to do that for another manager.
Imo, I would go for someone of the ilk of Capello, Trapattoni until the end of the season, someone who can fix us defensively quickly and get results. In the summer, we can look for a better, longer option. I would have said give it to one of the back room staff, but all of fergie's staff have left.
Also, the players have received a lot of criticism. If it's not a lack of motivation then it's a lack of quality is. Surely, if it's a lack of quality then we shouldn't be surprised by the performance level, and they're in fact motivated but this is the best they can do. Honestly, I think it's somewhere in between, the squad is better than 7th, but not good enough to walk the league. Also, I don't blame them if they've lost Moyes' respect, he openly criticised their quality to the media why should they have faith in him when he has no faith them?
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
RED wrote:
I would have paid top dollar to be a fly on the wall in the room that had Bobby Charlton and SAF after yesterday's defeat.
SAF can be very stubborn, I doubt he will ever admit he made a mistake. I hope the looks on his and Sir Bobby's faces yesterday, were due to the Glazers putting pressure on Moyes.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
I don't think Ferguson over-achieved last season as he is that good of a manager; the best there has ever been in fact.
He won 28 games, and if anything flattered him and Man Utd's success, it was the failure of the other top clubs to offer adequate competition.
I do not think Man Utd would be in this situation now if he was in charge. I reckon they'd be at least 12 points better off.
He won 28 games, and if anything flattered him and Man Utd's success, it was the failure of the other top clubs to offer adequate competition.
I do not think Man Utd would be in this situation now if he was in charge. I reckon they'd be at least 12 points better off.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
That's true to an extent, but we won the league by 11 points not 2. If it was closer, you could have said it was due to our competitors, we were close to record points after all.
Unless, you mean it flattered us to win the league by 11 points rather than just winning the league flattering us?
Unless, you mean it flattered us to win the league by 11 points rather than just winning the league flattering us?
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
No other f*ing explanation. The guy clearly doesn't know what he's doing!
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
Clearly Moyes is not up to the level, and SAF over achieved.
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
I don't even know what 'overachieve' is supposed to mean. It's quite simple really, if you get better results with a certain team than a different manager, you're quite obviously the BETTER MANAGER.
That's why debating in these terms leads to people not seeing the forest for the trees.
Because they say, oh well we were overachieving under Ferguson, and now that he's gone we need to get BETTER PLAYERS.
Instead of saying, we had a great manager, now we have a worse manager, we need a great manager again.
That's why debating in these terms leads to people not seeing the forest for the trees.
Because they say, oh well we were overachieving under Ferguson, and now that he's gone we need to get BETTER PLAYERS.
Instead of saying, we had a great manager, now we have a worse manager, we need a great manager again.
Hapless_Hans- Forum Legend
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
I agree Hans, we're also one point worse than Everton last season, despite us having better players.
Busby Babe- First Team
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Re: QUESTION: Is David Moyes under-performing as manager of Manchester United, or was SAF over-achieving in the last few seasons?
Hapless_Hans wrote:I don't even know what 'overachieve' is supposed to mean. It's quite simple really, if you get better results with a certain team than a different manager, you're quite obviously the BETTER MANAGER.
That's why debating in these terms leads to people not seeing the forest for the trees.
Because they say, oh well we were overachieving under Ferguson, and now that he's gone we need to get BETTER PLAYERS.
Instead of saying, we had a great manager, now we have a worse manager, we need a great manager again.
Doing better than expected, like Liverpoo are this season?
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