The unpopular opinion thread

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Post by Lord Spencer Mon May 10, 2021 11:32 pm

Young Kaz wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:

The fullback for Ghana had the opportunity to do that to the USA and didnt...


Not nearly the same thing.

Suarez's handball (which was going to be handled by a different player initially) was at the 120th minute in a knock-out game.

If there is any player in that situation, and they could have kept the ball in, then they would. If they don't, then it means they are more stupid than honest. In that same match, Ghana, just like Uruguay, committed their fair share of cynical and tactical fouls and got their cards for it. Saurez's garnered a red card and a penalty, which Gyan promptly choked and missed.


Thats the thing though. They could have cheated us and didnt. I respected that even if I was heartbroken they knocked us out of the world cup.

The idea in that instance that everybody would cheat is part of the reason why I fell out of love with the game. Its cheating, and if you will cheat that way you will cheat in any other way. I wouldnt want to win that way, and I wouldnt want a team than won that way. We dont like that in America. Which is why people like Lan Armstrong and the patriots are hated so much. Rather lose than cheat.


Again, its not the same thing. The stakes were not the same in that match, so blocking the ball and getting a red (missing the next group game) and potentially still losing is not the same situation.

You are comparing this to Armstrong, who doped and won countless trophies doping, which is just ridiculous.

Here, it is crystal clear. Suarez handled the ball, was correctly sent off and a penalty given. End of story.

That Ghana missed the penalty and then lost on the penalty shootouts is entirely their fault. Suarez didn't come in and act as a second GK for their penalities, and Uruguay didn't have an advantage within the rules of the game.

If Suarez handles the ball and got away with it, I would 100% consider it cheating since he wasn't punished for the foul. But since it was punished, it is exactly like any other tactical foul in the match, which is part of the game, and was committed by both countries.

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Post by Lord Spencer Mon May 10, 2021 11:37 pm

Myesyats wrote:Everyone seems to forget that ghana was a team of divers and time wasters and iirc the fk that led to this whole shebang shouldnt have been called bc it was, in fact,  a dive and I consider diving way worse than what Suarez did.


It's not as if Uruguay were any different. Both teams relied on those tactics regularly. The hypocrisy is in defending Ghana's actions and focusing on a given foul and penalty that Gyan choked and missed it Laughing

Hell, Suarez was crying because he thought he cost them the match since he didn't react fast enough to head the ball instead of using his arms.

Also, it is actually funny how they ignore that foul did indeed come in from a most blatant Ghanian dive Laughing

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Post by Young Kaz Mon May 10, 2021 11:42 pm

The Super league cant be cheating because there isnt a billionaire owner around who wouldnt pass up the opportunity to make more money. Teams that stayed in it were penalized.


All apart of the game.

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Post by Arquitecto Mon May 10, 2021 11:51 pm

Young Kaz wrote:
El Gunner wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:


In that way anything is acceptable to you.

What If he just went and broke Ayew's leg in the second half and got sent off? Tackling is in the game, and the rules warrant a red card.

yup lol

point remains what Suarez did was dirty... it was "unethical" and "unsportman-like"... it was instinctual and it says a lot about his character because of that. He was "cheating" the "fair ethics" of the game, point blank! Now i do understand if some is more lenient with what he did... some could simply frame it as it was a show of how much of a "winner" he is, and what lengths he would go to for it. And also in terms on the "dirty" scale it is not to the same degree as going to break someone's leg intentionally. Still, Kaz, your rebuttal is a good response to how Freeza framed his opinion.


It was the most disgusting thing I have ever seen in sport. July 2 2010 is when I fell out of love with the game all together in general. I was working as an intern in San Diego at a Hardware company at that point, and I sat in that cramped room and wept after that match. It still hurts over 10 years later.


He cheated EVERYBODY who loves football
Who loves sport
Who loves anything that is good, and civil and decent in the world.

That Ghana side, in my opinion, was good enough to beat the Netherlands. Would they have beat Spain in a final? Almost certainly not, but they should have been there. They were the best African team I had ever seen, and this is coming from someone who watched the 90's super eagles  .



bruh calm your tits it wasnt that deep lol
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Post by Katy Perry Mon May 10, 2021 11:54 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:
Katy Perry wrote:
Luca wrote:An intentional handball is not cheating, it’s a foul prescribed by the rules of the game

Cheating would be doping or forming a super league

I know all about cheating because Pirlo just cheated me out of watching Juventus in the champions league next season

Please don’t make Serie b jokes, I’m not in a laughing mood
That's just semantics. Any infringement of the rules is technically cheating. Just like doping is an infringement of the rules.


So basically any tactical foul is "cheating", and any player that commits a tactical foul should be considered a cheater. Also, any player that commits a yellow card offense.

Fouling is part of the game, and getting punished for it is part of the game as well. The punishment for Suarez was a red card and a penalty, which is the worst possible punishment in the rules of the law.

The rules were applied correctly in the Ghana match, so no "cheating" occurred (unlike Maradona's and Henry's handball goals for example).

Sure, Suarez would have tried to cheat, but he couldn't, and Ghana had the chance to quickly seal the match.

They didn't, and so ensues this decade of crying.
Every single foul is cheating. You kick a player preventing him from continuing the play and the punishment for that is a dead ball on the location of the kick, you kick a player hard/tactically stop the build up of a potentially dangerous action and you get punished with a yellow card, you waste time and the punishment is a yellow card and 30 additional seconds of injury time,  you dive you get yellow carded, you kick a player that is close to the goal and thus in prime position to score and you get punished with a dead ball from 11 meters that is more likely to result in a goal than the unaltered development of the action 99.99% of the times. You deliberately deny a clear goalscoring opportunity (approximately 0.5 xG) and you get a red card and a penalty (0.75 xG).

For every foul there's an appropriate punishment that appropriately reflects the damage inflicted on the opposing team or surpasses it. Suarez's foul was an unprecedented loophole and it was one of the only times in history when the penalty of the foul had considerably less impact than the foul itself. In 150+ years of football something like that never occurred. The extraordinarity of it made it even possible, because had it been a recurring thing the rules would have been changed.

I'll just rephrase it without using the word cheating. It was the most egregious infringement of the rules that has ever happened, it was the most blatant use of an exploit of the rules. There have been some fouls whose punishment didn't accurately reflect the infringement committed, but never to that extent. It was maximum stretch possible. He finessed the way football punishes the infringements of the rules.
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Post by Lord Spencer Tue May 11, 2021 12:24 am

Katy Perry wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:
Katy Perry wrote:
That's just semantics. Any infringement of the rules is technically cheating. Just like doping is an infringement of the rules.


So basically any tactical foul is "cheating", and any player that commits a tactical foul should be considered a cheater. Also, any player that commits a yellow card offense.

Fouling is part of the game, and getting punished for it is part of the game as well. The punishment for Suarez was a red card and a penalty, which is the worst possible punishment in the rules of the law.

The rules were applied correctly in the Ghana match, so no "cheating" occurred (unlike Maradona's and Henry's handball goals for example).

Sure, Suarez would have tried to cheat, but he couldn't, and Ghana had the chance to quickly seal the match.

They didn't, and so ensues this decade of crying.
Every single foul is cheating. You kick a player preventing him from continuing the play and the punishment for that is a dead ball on the location of the kick, you kick a player hard/tactically stop the build up of a potentially dangerous action and you get punished with a yellow card, you waste time and the punishment is a yellow card and 30 additional seconds of injury time,  you dive you get yellow carded, you kick a player that is close to the goal and thus in prime position to score and you get punished with a dead ball from 11 meters that is more likely to result in a goal than the unaltered development of the action 99.99% of the times. You deliberately deny a clear goalscoring opportunity (approximately 0.5 xG) and you get a red card and a penalty (0.75 xG).

For every foul there's an appropriate punishment that appropriately reflects the damage inflicted on the opposing team or surpasses it. Suarez's foul was an unprecedented loophole and it was one of the only times in history when the penalty of the foul had considerably less impact than the foul itself. In 150+ years of football something like that never occurred. The extraordinarity of it made it even possible, because had it been a recurring thing the rules would have been changed.

I'll just rephrase it without using the word cheating. It was the most egregious infringement of the rules that has ever happened, it was the most blatant use of an exploit of the rules. There have been some fouls whose punishment didn't accurately reflect the infringement committed, but never to that extent. It was maximum stretch possible. He finessed the way football punishes the infringements of the rules.

I have an issue with that statement.

First, there is the fact that you have numerous times where infringements that were not caught causing more damage than the Suarez situation.

Second, there is the fact that it wasn't a loophole. Suarez actually made a mistake in not going for the ball with his head, which he could have given his position. So in effect, he created a goal-scoring opportunity against his team by not correctly clearing the ball with his head and instead of committing a foul.

Finally, it is laughable that you consider this the most blatant exploitation of the rules when Maradona's goal exists, or when you consider that the foul that created the entire situation was a blatant dive.
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Post by Katy Perry Tue May 11, 2021 12:46 am

Lord Spencer wrote:
Katy Perry wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:


So basically any tactical foul is "cheating", and any player that commits a tactical foul should be considered a cheater. Also, any player that commits a yellow card offense.

Fouling is part of the game, and getting punished for it is part of the game as well. The punishment for Suarez was a red card and a penalty, which is the worst possible punishment in the rules of the law.

The rules were applied correctly in the Ghana match, so no "cheating" occurred (unlike Maradona's and Henry's handball goals for example).

Sure, Suarez would have tried to cheat, but he couldn't, and Ghana had the chance to quickly seal the match.

They didn't, and so ensues this decade of crying.
Every single foul is cheating. You kick a player preventing him from continuing the play and the punishment for that is a dead ball on the location of the kick, you kick a player hard/tactically stop the build up of a potentially dangerous action and you get punished with a yellow card, you waste time and the punishment is a yellow card and 30 additional seconds of injury time,  you dive you get yellow carded, you kick a player that is close to the goal and thus in prime position to score and you get punished with a dead ball from 11 meters that is more likely to result in a goal than the unaltered development of the action 99.99% of the times. You deliberately deny a clear goalscoring opportunity (approximately 0.5 xG) and you get a red card and a penalty (0.75 xG).

For every foul there's an appropriate punishment that appropriately reflects the damage inflicted on the opposing team or surpasses it. Suarez's foul was an unprecedented loophole and it was one of the only times in history when the penalty of the foul had considerably less impact than the foul itself. In 150+ years of football something like that never occurred. The extraordinarity of it made it even possible, because had it been a recurring thing the rules would have been changed.

I'll just rephrase it without using the word cheating. It was the most egregious infringement of the rules that has ever happened, it was the most blatant use of an exploit of the rules. There have been some fouls whose punishment didn't accurately reflect the infringement committed, but never to that extent. It was maximum stretch possible. He finessed the way football punishes the infringements of the rules.

I have an issue with that statement.

First, there is the fact that you have numerous times where infringements that were not caught causing more damage than the Suarez situation.

Second, there is the fact that it wasn't a loophole. Suarez actually made a mistake in not going for the ball with his head, which he could have given his position. So in effect, he created a goal-scoring opportunity against his team by not correctly clearing the ball with his head and instead of committing a foul.

Finally, it is laughable that you consider this the most blatant exploitation of the rules when Maradona's goal exists, or when you consider that the foul that created the entire situation was a blatant dive.

It was a loophole in the way rules of football systematically function. There's always an appropriate punishment that represents the damage inflicted, or even a punishment that surpasses it. 99.99% of reds given for denying a CGC deny a chance that has a 50% chance to be converted. The remaining 0.01% are similar incidents like Suarez's where you literally put the ball out of the net, and you don't get an appropriate representation of that but at least you get to play against 10. Suarez's incident was the only one amongst this 0.01% where it was literally the last action of the game and there was no game remaining to be played 11v10

Those are some referee mistakes, and some of them like Maradona vs England or Henry vs Ireland are incredibly egregious exploitations of the rules, but the reason why I'm putting Suarez above them and the reason why it left a bitter taste in my mouth is exactly because it wasn't even a referee mistake. Suarez just finessed everybody. He finessed Ghana, he finessed the refs, he finessed the way the rules work.
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Post by Lord Spencer Tue May 11, 2021 12:58 am

Katy Perry wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:
Katy Perry wrote:
Every single foul is cheating. You kick a player preventing him from continuing the play and the punishment for that is a dead ball on the location of the kick, you kick a player hard/tactically stop the build up of a potentially dangerous action and you get punished with a yellow card, you waste time and the punishment is a yellow card and 30 additional seconds of injury time,  you dive you get yellow carded, you kick a player that is close to the goal and thus in prime position to score and you get punished with a dead ball from 11 meters that is more likely to result in a goal than the unaltered development of the action 99.99% of the times. You deliberately deny a clear goalscoring opportunity (approximately 0.5 xG) and you get a red card and a penalty (0.75 xG).

For every foul there's an appropriate punishment that appropriately reflects the damage inflicted on the opposing team or surpasses it. Suarez's foul was an unprecedented loophole and it was one of the only times in history when the penalty of the foul had considerably less impact than the foul itself. In 150+ years of football something like that never occurred. The extraordinarity of it made it even possible, because had it been a recurring thing the rules would have been changed.

I'll just rephrase it without using the word cheating. It was the most egregious infringement of the rules that has ever happened, it was the most blatant use of an exploit of the rules. There have been some fouls whose punishment didn't accurately reflect the infringement committed, but never to that extent. It was maximum stretch possible. He finessed the way football punishes the infringements of the rules.

I have an issue with that statement.

First, there is the fact that you have numerous times where infringements that were not caught causing more damage than the Suarez situation.

Second, there is the fact that it wasn't a loophole. Suarez actually made a mistake in not going for the ball with his head, which he could have given his position. So in effect, he created a goal-scoring opportunity against his team by not correctly clearing the ball with his head and instead of committing a foul.

Finally, it is laughable that you consider this the most blatant exploitation of the rules when Maradona's goal exists, or when you consider that the foul that created the entire situation was a blatant dive.

It was a loophole in the way rules of football systematically function. There's always an appropriate punishment that represents the damage inflicted, or even a punishment that surpasses it. 99.99% of reds given for denying a CGC deny a chance that has a 50% chance to be converted. The remaining 0.01% are similar incidents like Suarez's where you literally put the ball out of the net, and you don't get an appropriate representation of that but at least you get to play against 10. Suarez's incident was the only one amongst this 0.01% where it was literally the last action of the game and there was no game remaining to be played 11v10

Those are some referee mistakes, and some of them like Maradona vs England or Henry vs Ireland are incredibly egregious exploitations of the rules, but the reason why I'm putting Suarez above them and the reason why it left a bitter taste in my mouth is exactly because it wasn't even a referee mistake. Suarez just finessed everybody. He finessed Ghana, he finessed the refs, he finessed the way the rules work.


You basically ignored most of what I said regarding the second and third points and repeated the same argument.

First, Suarez made the second-worst possible move for his team at that moment (the first being allowing the ball to go in). He was in a position to head the ball, but he lost his head and handled the ball. At that moment, Ghana actually gets a scoring chance when Suarez could have legitimately cleared the ball.

Second, you are ignoring that the entire situation was created by a foul from a clear Ghanian dive (a "cheating" act that wasn't caught).

So it is ridiculous that you consider Suarez's action, which was correctly punished within the rules of the law, to be more egregious than the countless infringements which have decided matches but were not caught or properly punished (which can actually be considered cheating since the laws were circumvented). That tells me all I need to know about your logic regarding this situation, which is entirely colored by narrative and not by the objective analysis of the situation.

If Gyan didn't miss the penalty, the controversy wouldn't be a thing and would in fact focus on the blatant dive to award the FK (which Uruguay should have dealt with better, and if they lost to it, wouldn't have the right to complain and cry about it for 10 years).
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Post by Katy Perry Tue May 11, 2021 1:12 am

Lord Spencer wrote:
Katy Perry wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:

I have an issue with that statement.

First, there is the fact that you have numerous times where infringements that were not caught causing more damage than the Suarez situation.

Second, there is the fact that it wasn't a loophole. Suarez actually made a mistake in not going for the ball with his head, which he could have given his position. So in effect, he created a goal-scoring opportunity against his team by not correctly clearing the ball with his head and instead of committing a foul.

Finally, it is laughable that you consider this the most blatant exploitation of the rules when Maradona's goal exists, or when you consider that the foul that created the entire situation was a blatant dive.

It was a loophole in the way rules of football systematically function. There's always an appropriate punishment that represents the damage inflicted, or even a punishment that surpasses it. 99.99% of reds given for denying a CGC deny a chance that has a 50% chance to be converted. The remaining 0.01% are similar incidents like Suarez's where you literally put the ball out of the net, and you don't get an appropriate representation of that but at least you get to play against 10. Suarez's incident was the only one amongst this 0.01% where it was literally the last action of the game and there was no game remaining to be played 11v10

Those are some referee mistakes, and some of them like Maradona vs England or Henry vs Ireland are incredibly egregious exploitations of the rules, but the reason why I'm putting Suarez above them and the reason why it left a bitter taste in my mouth is exactly because it wasn't even a referee mistake. Suarez just finessed everybody. He finessed Ghana, he finessed the refs, he finessed the way the rules work.


You basically ignored most of what I said regarding the second and third points and repeated the same argument.

First, Suarez made the second-worst possible move for his team at that moment (the first being allowing the ball to go in). He was in a position to head the ball, but he lost his head and handled the ball. At that moment, Ghana actually gets a scoring chance when Suarez could have legitimately cleared the ball.

Second, you are ignoring that the entire situation was created by a foul from a clear Ghanian dive (a "cheating" act that wasn't caught).

So it is ridiculous that you consider Suarez's action, which was correctly punished within the rules of the law, to be more egregious than the countless infringements which have decided matches but were not caught or properly punished (which can actually be considered cheating since the laws were circumvented). That tells me all I need to know about your logic regarding this situation, which is entirely colored by narrative and not by the objective analysis of the situation.

If Gyan didn't miss the penalty, the controversy wouldn't be a thing and would in fact focus on the blatant dive to award the FK (which Uruguay should have dealt with better, and if they lost to it, wouldn't have the right to complain and cry about it for 10 years).

How so?
Rules infringements that the referee miss are also blatant exploitations of the rules, yes. But they're essentially either incredibly more common (in the case of dives/enhancing of a foul/or whatever) or have a referee mistake component to it (like Maradona or Henry).

The reason why I consider Suarez the worse is because there have never been a similar incident in the history of football where the foul whistled didn't reflect the damage inflicted this egregiously. And that's the only reason why the "correct" punishment didn't reflect it. If it was a recurring thing it would have been changed because of the way football's rules systematically work. Every foul that has ever been whistled had a punishment that correctly represented the damage inflicted or surpasses it except that one.

He didn't deceive the refs, he just finessed them and he finessed the way football rules work in an unprecedented and unrepeated way. That very fact puts it above anything else without diminishing them.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue May 11, 2021 1:58 am

Wait there's people here that think this was worse than the hand of God?? Laughing Laughing now that's cheating
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Post by Katy Perry Tue May 11, 2021 2:13 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Wait there's people here that  think this was worse than the hand of God?? Laughing Laughing now that's cheating

That's certainly up there, but that was a clear referee mistake. Had there been a better referee or had there been var, it would have just been disallowed.

Had there been var or any referee in the world on Suarez's case and the outcome would have been the same. You would need an actual rule change to properly reflect the damage inflicted to Ghana. He didn't just finessed that ref, he finessed the whole rulebook of football. He finessed all of us.
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Post by CBarca Tue May 11, 2021 2:26 am

The definition of cheating is: "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."

Which explains why diving is cheating (acting dishonestly to gain an advantage), but what Suarez did is not. You may say that he acted unfairly to gain an advantage, but there was nothing unfair about it per the rules. Ghana could have done the same thing if the roles were reversed. The rules are the rules and the consequences are laid out ahead of time, and both teams can take advantage or bend those rules in the exact same way.

I won't argue that there is a bending of the rules here, but it's the same for any tactical foul, which is essentially all Suarez's actions are (a tactical foul).

Most any game is going to have situations where you can actually take advantage of the rulebook, situationally, even though it's usually not in your favor (the last minutes of a close basketball game are literally played out as one long version of this). That's not cheating though -- because there is nothing fundamentally unfair about it. Both teams have an equal opportunity to situationally take advantage of the rulebook, and consequences are laid out ahead of time for either team to endure if they go ahead and do try to tactically foul.
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Post by Perucho21 Tue May 11, 2021 4:43 am

I think you guys forget how incredibly important the world cup is to South Americans Laughing I'm sure what Suarez did wasn't blatant and he acted purely on instinct. It was a WC QF and he stopped Ghana from winning it at the death... honestly can anyone say they would not have done the same? It's the WC ffs (it still means something to us damn it), you gotta do whatever it takes to win.

Whether its cheating or not is another debate, but what can't be debated is how it was handled. Referee made all the right calls, Ghana got a golden opportunity to reach semis and choked.

Despite the controversy, it's definitely one of the best WC games I've ever witnessed. It had everything
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Post by Freeza Tue May 11, 2021 8:31 am

Young Kaz wrote:
El Gunner wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:


In that way anything is acceptable to you.

What If he just went and broke Ayew's leg in the second half and got sent off? Tackling is in the game, and the rules warrant a red card.

yup lol

point remains what Suarez did was dirty... it was "unethical" and "unsportman-like"... it was instinctual and it says a lot about his character because of that. He was "cheating" the "fair ethics" of the game, point blank! Now i do understand if some is more lenient with what he did... some could simply frame it as it was a show of how much of a "winner" he is, and what lengths he would go to for it. And also in terms on the "dirty" scale it is not to the same degree as going to break someone's leg intentionally. Still, Kaz, your rebuttal is a good response to how Freeza framed his opinion.


It was the most disgusting thing I have ever seen in sport. July 2 2010 is when I fell out of love with the game all together in general. I was working as an intern in San Diego at a Hardware company at that point, and I sat in that cramped room and wept after that match. It still hurts over 10 years later.

He cheated EVERYBODY who loves football
Who loves sport
Who loves anything that is good, and civil and decent in the world.

That Ghana side, in my opinion, was good enough to beat the Netherlands. Would they have beat Spain in a final? Almost certainly not, but they should have been there. They were the best African team I had ever seen, and this is coming from someone who watched the 90's super eagles  .


This is most incredibly hysterical thing I've ever read rofl

Incredible
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Post by Lord Spencer Tue May 11, 2021 8:59 am

Katy Perry wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:
Katy Perry wrote:

It was a loophole in the way rules of football systematically function. There's always an appropriate punishment that represents the damage inflicted, or even a punishment that surpasses it. 99.99% of reds given for denying a CGC deny a chance that has a 50% chance to be converted. The remaining 0.01% are similar incidents like Suarez's where you literally put the ball out of the net, and you don't get an appropriate representation of that but at least you get to play against 10. Suarez's incident was the only one amongst this 0.01% where it was literally the last action of the game and there was no game remaining to be played 11v10

Those are some referee mistakes, and some of them like Maradona vs England or Henry vs Ireland are incredibly egregious exploitations of the rules, but the reason why I'm putting Suarez above them and the reason why it left a bitter taste in my mouth is exactly because it wasn't even a referee mistake. Suarez just finessed everybody. He finessed Ghana, he finessed the refs, he finessed the way the rules work.


You basically ignored most of what I said regarding the second and third points and repeated the same argument.

First, Suarez made the second-worst possible move for his team at that moment (the first being allowing the ball to go in). He was in a position to head the ball, but he lost his head and handled the ball. At that moment, Ghana actually gets a scoring chance when Suarez could have legitimately cleared the ball.

Second, you are ignoring that the entire situation was created by a foul from a clear Ghanian dive (a "cheating" act that wasn't caught).

So it is ridiculous that you consider Suarez's action, which was correctly punished within the rules of the law, to be more egregious than the countless infringements which have decided matches but were not caught or properly punished (which can actually be considered cheating since the laws were circumvented). That tells me all I need to know about your logic regarding this situation, which is entirely colored by narrative and not by the objective analysis of the situation.

If Gyan didn't miss the penalty, the controversy wouldn't be a thing and would in fact focus on the blatant dive to award the FK (which Uruguay should have dealt with better, and if they lost to it, wouldn't have the right to complain and cry about it for 10 years).

How so?
Rules infringements that the referee miss are also blatant exploitations of the rules, yes. But they're essentially either incredibly more common (in the case of dives/enhancing of a foul/or whatever) or have a referee mistake component to it (like Maradona or Henry).

The reason why I consider Suarez the worse is because there have never been a similar incident in the history of football where the foul whistled didn't reflect the damage inflicted this egregiously. And that's the only reason why the "correct" punishment didn't reflect it. If it was a recurring thing it would have been changed because of the way football's rules systematically work. Every foul that has ever been whistled had a punishment that correctly represented the damage inflicted or surpasses it except that one.

He didn't deceive the refs, he just finessed them and he finessed the way football rules work in an unprecedented and unrepeated way. That very fact puts it above anything else without diminishing them.


Again, you are ignoring some key points in my argument, which is just stupid at this point.

Ghanian player dived to get the foul, Suarez made a mistake clearing the ball with his hand instead of his head, gifting Ghana a golden chance that could have been legitimately cleared if Suarez had a better head (literally speaking), but Gyan choked and people are still crying about it (just like you, completely forgetting the "finessing" by the earlier dive).

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Post by Nivash Tue May 11, 2021 11:22 am

If Ghana hadn't bottled the penalty, this wouldn't even be a discussion. It follows that it really isn't the tumultuous end of footballing morality it's facetiously being made out to be

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Post by El Gunner Tue May 11, 2021 12:12 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:The narrative behind this being Ghana carrying Africa's dreams (which is scrub mentality at its finest as if Africans are a monolithic race) exaggerating this offense is laughable.
what? this isn't about race... nobody said Africans are a monolithic race Laughing but if you have any sense of what the world cup meant to Africans as a continent, our history, and the politics around it all... it being the first world cup hosted in Africa and all that... and Ghana having played so well... and if you remember how CLEARLY everyone in the world except for Uruguayans and haters were behind Ghana... you clearly would understand the sentiment of Ghana carrying "Africa's dreams" in that world cup.

Like i said, i understand if some people have a different view on what Suarez did. But pls don't reside to making stupid comments like that... and saying the rules of football allow for handball clearances on the line. Pls. That's all i ask for. You can have your opinion, but don't reside to stupidity to accentuate your point.


Last edited by El Gunner on Tue May 11, 2021 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by El Gunner Tue May 11, 2021 12:13 pm

Nivash wrote:If Ghana hadn't bottled the penalty, this wouldn't even be a discussion. It follows that it really isn't the tumultuous end of footballing morality it's facetiously being made out to be

but see Nivash it's easy to just say that... but a penalty isn't a certainty. An 80% chance (based on stats) vs what would have been a clear cut 100% goal. That's why i agree with every single post Katy Perry has made during this discussion. He perfectly outline everything with thorough diction and consequently why it was wrong.

Nobody really said it was the end of footballing morality except for Kaz's dramatic ass Laughing but in all honesty, that post was beautiful, it should be framed somewhere
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Post by Freeza Tue May 11, 2021 12:20 pm

El Gunner wrote: but in all honesty, that post was beautiful, it should be framed somewhere


Agreed. Legit been a long time since a post on here made me that happy.
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Post by Myesyats Tue May 11, 2021 12:45 pm

So overdramatic. This logic is such a miss. Reminds me of the whole debate whether parking the bus is in spirit of the game or whatever. Tactical fouls are part of the strategy of the game and literally every team does it.

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Post by Katy Perry Tue May 11, 2021 5:44 pm

CBarca wrote:The definition of cheating is: "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."

Which explains why diving is cheating (acting dishonestly to gain an advantage), but what Suarez did is not. You may say that he acted unfairly to gain an advantage, but there was nothing unfair about it per the rules. Ghana could have done the same thing if the roles were reversed. The rules are the rules and the consequences are laid out ahead of time, and both teams can take advantage or bend those rules in the exact same way.

I won't argue that there is a bending of the rules here, but it's the same for any tactical foul, which is essentially all Suarez's actions are (a tactical foul).

Most any game is going to have situations where you can actually take advantage of the rulebook, situationally, even though it's usually not in your favor (the last minutes of a close basketball game are literally played out as one long version of this). That's not cheating though -- because there is nothing fundamentally unfair about it. Both teams have an equal opportunity to situationally take advantage of the rulebook, and consequences are laid out ahead of time for either team to endure if they go ahead and do try to tactically foul.

But every foul is an unfair act isn't it? There's just various degrees to it. The referee is there to give a suitable punishment for every unfair act that disrupts the normal flow of the game. Diving is "just" acting unfairly by deceiving the referee.
There's a rule for every potential unfair act and there's a suitable punishment for all of them except for what Suarez did to Ghana. That's why it is an unprecedented and unrepeated bend of the rules.

I guess it can be argued that only a yellow plus a free kick is not always the most suitable punishment for ruining a counterattack, but Suarez's was the worst tactical foul ever. For sure. He didn't deny a dangerous goal scoring chance, he flat out denied a 100% made goal. I can only recall certain other situations where an outfield player saved a made goal with his hands, but in none of them the penalty was the very last action of the game and the team could always play the remaining portion of the game as 11v10 in case they missed the penalty.

In basketball when you deny a clear path (2 guaranteed pts) you get punished with 2 FTs (league average FT accuracy of around 75%) plus the consequent possession of the ball (league average 50% FG acc. of getting 2/3 points) plus 1 foul that goes into the 5 needed to enter the FT bonus and the 6 needed to send off a player. So you do get a fair reparation of the damage inflicted with a strong possibility of achieving more. In football 99.99% of the actions where there's a CGC that is being denied (that denies an average 50% chance of scoring) reward the penalized team with a 75% to chance to score (average xG of a penalty) plus the rest of the game as 11v10. Damage compensated if not overcompensated. Then there's a 00.01% of CGC denied that are 100% made goals and they don't get the full retribution of it (only 75% of it) but at least they get to play 11v10 the remainder of the game so it kinda evens out. And only then there's one out of all of them which is Suarez vs Ghana where the penalty is the very last kick where the damage is not restored because the referee whistled as soon as Asamoah shot his penalty. That was the exception of the exceptions.

That's what's wrong about it. The unfulfilling reparation of the damage in a rulebook that is otherwise consistent in not allowing anyone to gain an advantage by acting unfairly that is significantly more impactful than the disadvantage brought by the punishment of said unfair act.
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Post by Lord Spencer Tue May 11, 2021 5:46 pm

El Gunner wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:The narrative behind this being Ghana carrying Africa's dreams (which is scrub mentality at its finest as if Africans are a monolithic race) exaggerating this offense is laughable.
what? this isn't about race... nobody said Africans are a monolithic race Laughing but if you have any sense of what the world cup meant to Africans as a continent, our history, and the politics around it all... it being the first world cup hosted in Africa and all that... and Ghana having played so well... and if you remember how CLEARLY everyone in the world except for Uruguayans and haters were behind Ghana... you clearly would understand the sentiment of Ghana carrying "Africa's dreams" in that world cup.

Like i said, i understand if some people have a different view on what Suarez did. But pls don't reside to making stupid comments like that... and saying the rules of football allow for handball clearances on the line. Pls. That's all i ask for. You can have your opinion, but don't reside to stupidity to accentuate your point.


I apologize for any insensitivity in my post. However, I think it is an abdication of personal responsibility on Ghana's part to continue blaming a correctly ruled foul for them missing penalties and losing the game.

I understand being very upset about it if a penalty was not given. But the moment a penalty was given, it was in Ghana's and Gyan's hand (Even the Ghana players celebrated when the foul was given and didn't complain at all). It's not Suarez's fault that they missed the penalty. Arguably, Suarez actually gave a better chance for Ghana to score, since he was actually in place to head the ball clear if he had better defensive instincts (a second before the handball, he clears the ball with his feet), which is why Katty Perry's scores regarding expected goals are so wrong. In that position, the goal was not 100% going to go in. Suarez was in a position to head the ball clear, but he stupidly used his hands, committing a foul and a penalty.

This is all without mentioning the fact that the foul that led to the handball was a clear and blatant dive from the Ghana player (which everyone conveniently ignores).
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Post by Katy Perry Tue May 11, 2021 5:51 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:
Katy Perry wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:


You basically ignored most of what I said regarding the second and third points and repeated the same argument.

First, Suarez made the second-worst possible move for his team at that moment (the first being allowing the ball to go in). He was in a position to head the ball, but he lost his head and handled the ball. At that moment, Ghana actually gets a scoring chance when Suarez could have legitimately cleared the ball.

Second, you are ignoring that the entire situation was created by a foul from a clear Ghanian dive (a "cheating" act that wasn't caught).

So it is ridiculous that you consider Suarez's action, which was correctly punished within the rules of the law, to be more egregious than the countless infringements which have decided matches but were not caught or properly punished (which can actually be considered cheating since the laws were circumvented). That tells me all I need to know about your logic regarding this situation, which is entirely colored by narrative and not by the objective analysis of the situation.

If Gyan didn't miss the penalty, the controversy wouldn't be a thing and would in fact focus on the blatant dive to award the FK (which Uruguay should have dealt with better, and if they lost to it, wouldn't have the right to complain and cry about it for 10 years).

How so?
Rules infringements that the referee miss are also blatant exploitations of the rules, yes. But they're essentially either incredibly more common (in the case of dives/enhancing of a foul/or whatever) or have a referee mistake component to it (like Maradona or Henry).

The reason why I consider Suarez the worse is because there have never been a similar incident in the history of football where the foul whistled didn't reflect the damage inflicted this egregiously. And that's the only reason why the "correct" punishment didn't reflect it. If it was a recurring thing it would have been changed because of the way football's rules systematically work. Every foul that has ever been whistled had a punishment that correctly represented the damage inflicted or surpasses it except that one.

He didn't deceive the refs, he just finessed them and he finessed the way football rules work in an unprecedented and unrepeated way. That very fact puts it above anything else without diminishing them.


Again, you are ignoring some key points in my argument, which is just stupid at this point.

Ghanian player dived to get the foul, Suarez made a mistake clearing the ball with his hand instead of his head, gifting Ghana a golden chance that could have been legitimately cleared if Suarez had a better head (literally speaking), but Gyan choked and people are still crying about it (just like you, completely forgetting the "finessing" by the earlier dive).


0.50 there's contact and at the worst it was embellished. This is whistled every time. Not a dive. Even if wrongly assuming that he dived and that Ghana would have won from that "dive", it would have indeed been awful, but that would have been something that happens incredibly more frequently than what Suarez did, that's something that would have had to do with that particular ref and that a better referee or var would have fixed (unlike what Suarez did). And that's an irrelevant pindaric flight because in fact it wasn't even a dive.

Suarez should have cleared with his head, Suarez should have telepathically predicted where exactly the ball was gonna end up and blocked it. But he didn't. For every foul there's an hypothetical action in which the player could have successfully defended the opposing play without committing a foul. But that's not relevant at all. That's not how football works. Suarez didn't gift Ghana a golden chance. Ghana created a golden chance that should have been 100% a goal and Suarez prevented Ghana from scoring with a foul (and with the foul being the only way in which it could have been prevented), and in an unique and unprecedented way Uruguay was not punished according to the damage inflicted with the foul.

If Asamoah scored it, this would have still remained true. It's irrelevant that he did when discussing the disparity of the potential advantage gained and the effective disadvantage brought to Ghana. I guess some people would have mistakenly swept that under the rug, but at the same time some people would have thought "damn Ghana would have felt hard done if he missed that" because a penalty in no way repairs the damage of a 100% made goal being deliberately denied by a foul.
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Post by Lord Spencer Tue May 11, 2021 6:13 pm

Katy Perry wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:
Katy Perry wrote:

How so?
Rules infringements that the referee miss are also blatant exploitations of the rules, yes. But they're essentially either incredibly more common (in the case of dives/enhancing of a foul/or whatever) or have a referee mistake component to it (like Maradona or Henry).

The reason why I consider Suarez the worse is because there have never been a similar incident in the history of football where the foul whistled didn't reflect the damage inflicted this egregiously. And that's the only reason why the "correct" punishment didn't reflect it. If it was a recurring thing it would have been changed because of the way football's rules systematically work. Every foul that has ever been whistled had a punishment that correctly represented the damage inflicted or surpasses it except that one.

He didn't deceive the refs, he just finessed them and he finessed the way football rules work in an unprecedented and unrepeated way. That very fact puts it above anything else without diminishing them.


Again, you are ignoring some key points in my argument, which is just stupid at this point.

Ghanian player dived to get the foul, Suarez made a mistake clearing the ball with his hand instead of his head, gifting Ghana a golden chance that could have been legitimately cleared if Suarez had a better head (literally speaking), but Gyan choked and people are still crying about it (just like you, completely forgetting the "finessing" by the earlier dive).


0.50 there's contact and at the worst it was embellished. This is whistled every time. Not a dive. Even if wrongly assuming that he dived and that Ghana would have won from that "dive", it would have indeed been awful, but that would have been something that happens incredibly more frequently than what Suarez did, that's something that would have had to do with that particular ref and that a better referee or var would have fixed (unlike what Suarez did). And that's an irrelevant pindaric flight because in fact it wasn't even a dive.

Suarez should have cleared with his head, Suarez should have telepathically predicted where exactly the ball was gonna end up and blocked it. But he didn't. For every foul there's an hypothetical action in which the player could have successfully defended the opposing play without committing a foul. But that's not relevant at all. That's not how football works. Suarez didn't gift Ghana a golden chance. Ghana created a golden chance that should have been 100% a goal and Suarez prevented Ghana from scoring with a foul (and with the foul being the only way in which it could have been prevented), and in an unique and unprecedented way Uruguay was not punished according to the damage inflicted with the foul.

If Asamoah scored it, this would have still remained true. It's irrelevant that he did when discussing the disparity of the potential advantage gained and the effective disadvantage brought to Ghana. I guess some people would have mistakenly swept that under the rug, but at the same time some people would have thought "damn Ghana would have felt hard done if he missed that" because a penalty in no way repairs the damage of a 100% made goal being deliberately denied by a foul.


It was a clear and blatant dive that was incorrectly given as a foul. There wasn't even a brush. Saw there was no way he could reach the ball and fell like a lily Laughing

Your math is entirely wrong because it takes into account a 100% chance of the ball going in when in fact there is a clear scenario where the player correctly clears. This wasn't a full stretch dive by Saurez to save the goal. At best, that chance is an 85% expected goal with the number of bodies on goal and the fact that it went in the direction of the defending player.

If you want to be pedantic and do the math, then you have three legal situations:

1- Suarez does nothing and the ball goes in.
2- Suarez steps to the right and heads the ball but it still goes in.
3- Suarez steps to the right and heads the ball out.

At best, that's a 90% chance of the ball going in.

There is nothing telepathic about it, he was eyeing the ball but he made a mistake and handled it, giving Ghana an 80% chance of scoring a goal.

Everything correctly implemented within the rules of the game. Hence, the notion of cheating when the rules are applied correctly is ridiculous regardless of the reduction in expected goal chances. Every tactical foul reduces the expected goals of the opposing team and it is impossible to match that with the punishment, so applying maths to it is a ridiculous endeavor.

Hypothetically, a much worse offense would have been a tackle outside the box on the last player (which would cause a foul and not a penalty) in the final minute of the match.
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Post by Katy Perry Tue May 11, 2021 6:26 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:
Katy Perry wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:


Again, you are ignoring some key points in my argument, which is just stupid at this point.

Ghanian player dived to get the foul, Suarez made a mistake clearing the ball with his hand instead of his head, gifting Ghana a golden chance that could have been legitimately cleared if Suarez had a better head (literally speaking), but Gyan choked and people are still crying about it (just like you, completely forgetting the "finessing" by the earlier dive).


0.50 there's contact and at the worst it was embellished. This is whistled every time. Not a dive. Even if wrongly assuming that he dived and that Ghana would have won from that "dive", it would have indeed been awful, but that would have been something that happens incredibly more frequently than what Suarez did, that's something that would have had to do with that particular ref and that a better referee or var would have fixed (unlike what Suarez did). And that's an irrelevant pindaric flight because in fact it wasn't even a dive.

Suarez should have cleared with his head, Suarez should have telepathically predicted where exactly the ball was gonna end up and blocked it. But he didn't. For every foul there's an hypothetical action in which the player could have successfully defended the opposing play without committing a foul. But that's not relevant at all. That's not how football works. Suarez didn't gift Ghana a golden chance. Ghana created a golden chance that should have been 100% a goal and Suarez prevented Ghana from scoring with a foul (and with the foul being the only way in which it could have been prevented), and in an unique and unprecedented way Uruguay was not punished according to the damage inflicted with the foul.

If Asamoah scored it, this would have still remained true. It's irrelevant that he did when discussing the disparity of the potential advantage gained and the effective disadvantage brought to Ghana. I guess some people would have mistakenly swept that under the rug, but at the same time some people would have thought "damn Ghana would have felt hard done if he missed that" because a penalty in no way repairs the damage of a 100% made goal being deliberately denied by a foul.


It was a clear and blatant dive that was incorrectly given as a foul. There wasn't even a brush. Saw there was no way he could reach the ball and fell like a lily Laughing

Your math is entirely wrong because it takes into account a 100% chance of the ball going in when in fact there is a clear scenario where the player correctly clears. This wasn't a full stretch dive by Saurez to save the goal. At best, that chance is an 85% expected goal with the number of bodies on goal and the fact that it went in the direction of the defending player.

If you want to be pedantic and do the math, then you have three legal situations:

1- Suarez does nothing and the ball goes in.
2- Suarez steps to the right and heads the ball but it still goes in.
3- Suarez steps to the right and heads the ball out.

At best, that's a 90% chance of the ball going in.

There is nothing telepathic about it, he was eyeing the ball but he made a mistake and handled it, giving Ghana an 80% chance of scoring a goal.

Everything correctly implemented within the rules of the game. Hence, the notion of cheating when the rules are applied correctly is ridiculous regardless of the reduction in expected goal chances. Every tactical foul reduces the expected goals of the opposing team and it is impossible to match that with the punishment, so applying maths to it is a ridiculous endeavor.

Hypothetically, a much worse offense would have been a tackle outside the box on the last player (which would cause a foul and not a penalty) in the final minute of the match.
That was not a blatant dive if there is contact. It was an embellishment and that is given every time. If you wanna argue that players should always stay up until they physically can't that's an another argument but that just does not happen.

That goal should have hit the net. A shot with only the defenders on goal and is not necessairly a 1.00 xG prior to the shot being made because the striker could miss it or the defenders could parry it, but in the moment in which the shot is destined for the net and is legally unreachable for the defenders the xG becomes 1.00. End of.

A penalty gets issued (0.75 xG) which is not enough compensation for it, and this goes against the principle of every single rule in football that is that you cannot gain an advantage by fouling that has more impact than the punishment for said foul. But an eye is closed on this one because those situations are the 0.01% of the GCG denied, and because playing 11v10 (which is the second half of the punishment, a penalty for a clear CGC being denied is only half of the punishment) sorta makes up for it. Suarez was the exception amongst the 0.01% where the penalty was the last kick of the game and the second half of the punishment didn't kick off.

You basically cannot replicate the advantage that Suarez got from breaking the rules even if you tried your hardest. There are tactical fouls that I suppose do so but they will almos never reach the stretch that Suarez's one did. You and your team will get penalized, and that penalty will equal the field or bring you to a worse position that you were in prior to the infringement of the rules.

That's the principle of the rules and the very essential way in which they function. You cannot gain an advantage by breaking them. There's always a negative consequence for the team committing a foul that has roughly the same negative impact on the team committing the foul, and most of the times there's an additional punishment added to it just to punish the fact that they dared to do so. That's what the rules represent.

I guess that hypotethical would be worse. That would be an even greater advantage gained that surpasses the punishment for it. But that has not happened yet, so Suarez's takes the cake.
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Post by Casciavit Tue May 11, 2021 7:05 pm

Arquitecto wrote:
Young Kaz wrote:
El Gunner wrote:

yup lol

point remains what Suarez did was dirty... it was "unethical" and "unsportman-like"... it was instinctual and it says a lot about his character because of that. He was "cheating" the "fair ethics" of the game, point blank! Now i do understand if some is more lenient with what he did... some could simply frame it as it was a show of how much of a "winner" he is, and what lengths he would go to for it. And also in terms on the "dirty" scale it is not to the same degree as going to break someone's leg intentionally. Still, Kaz, your rebuttal is a good response to how Freeza framed his opinion.


It was the most disgusting thing I have ever seen in sport. July 2 2010 is when I fell out of love with the game all together in general. I was working as an intern in San Diego at a Hardware company at that point, and I sat in that cramped room and wept after that match. It still hurts over 10 years later.


He cheated EVERYBODY who loves football
Who loves sport
Who loves anything that is good, and civil and decent in the world.

That Ghana side, in my opinion, was good enough to beat the Netherlands. Would they have beat Spain in a final? Almost certainly not, but they should have been there. They were the best African team I had ever seen, and this is coming from someone who watched the 90's super eagles  .



bruh calm your tits it wasnt that deep lol

Looool this is GL's copypasta now rofl
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