Most goals + assists in year 2013

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Post by Pip Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:53 pm

Valkyrja wrote:Please. He is a complete player now, even Ferguson said. He just lost some of his dribbling skills(he's still a good dribbler), but he added much more. He is by far the most dangerous player in the box, being able to finish from any position, with both legs, and with the head. His link-up play is very good, his decision making is much better than it was at Utd, his passing and vision improved, he's much more of a team player, his long shots are better. Moreover his off-the-ball movement is by far the best in football.
rofl

Cristiano was a more complete player at Manchester United than he is right now. Not only did he score goals in abundance, he was a phenomenal winger and a wide forward. He could beat multiple defenders off the dribble, was extremely dangerous on-the-ball and off-the-ball, was equally adept terrorizing the fullback or drifting inside. Nowadays he plays almost solely through the middle, is not as creative and dangerous than he used to be.

The only thing he has improved now is his goal-scoring and he has limited his overall ability to maximize his goal-scoring prowess. He's not more of a team player now, he never was one in the first place. His long shots are not better. His passing has not improved. He's simply become more predatory in front of goal.

That post makes it seem like you've actually never seen him play at Manchester United. Just because he scores 60 goals now doesn't make him a complete player. He still has the same physical abilities like speed and jumping, his dribbling has reduced greatly, his explosiveness has reduced, and his on-ball influence has reduced. All for more goals.

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Post by Jack Daniels Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:08 pm

Meh.. Who the hell cares if you score lots of goals.

Child's play really, Lots of players can do such feat if they want to. To hell with it, i think all players should just focus on improving their dribbling skills and aim to have godly vision to become a better player. Goals doesn't matter as they're not even relevant when it comes to success even if your role is to do so.

Screw the goal scoring role as you will never be a better player no matter what impact you make compared to them technical dudes.

While at it, defenders should just scrap on improving their tackling prowess and focus on adding them sexy dribbling and "cut-through like butter" passing skills to become "complete" and thus become a better player to maximize your impact in the game itself.

Hey being complete at what you're supposed to do doesn't mean you're the "complete player" everybody demands you to be. I expect Neuer to score at least 10 goals and make them assists next season.


Last edited by Jack Daniels on Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Valkyrja Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:14 pm

Pippo wrote:
Valkyrja wrote:Please. He is a complete player now, even Ferguson said. He just lost some of his dribbling skills(he's still a good dribbler), but he added much more. He is by far the most dangerous player in the box, being able to finish from any position, with both legs, and with the head. His link-up play is very good, his decision making is much better than it was at Utd, his passing and vision improved, he's much more of a team player, his long shots are better. Moreover his off-the-ball movement is by far the best in football.
rofl

Cristiano was a more complete player at Manchester United than he is right now. Not only did he score goals in abundance, he was a phenomenal winger and a wide forward. He could beat multiple defenders off the dribble, was extremely dangerous on-the-ball and off-the-ball, was equally adept terrorizing the fullback or drifting inside. Nowadays he plays almost solely through the middle, is not as creative and dangerous than he used to be.

The only thing he has improved now is his goal-scoring and he has limited his overall ability to maximize his goal-scoring prowess. He's not more of a team player now, he never was one in the first place. His long shots are not better. His passing has not improved. He's simply become more predatory in front of goal.

That post makes it seem like you've actually never seen him play at Manchester United. Just because he scores 60 goals now doesn't make him a complete player. He still has the same physical abilities like speed and jumping, his dribbling has reduced greatly, his explosiveness has reduced, and his on-ball influence has reduced. All for more goals.
'

Said it all :facepalm:

It looks like you know him better than this guy

"Maturity brings many things. When I went to see them play against City, some of his decision-making in terms of passing was brilliant. One-touch passing, good crosses. In the six years we had him, you just saw his game grow all the time, and he was a fantastic player. Now you see the complete player. His decision-making, his maturity, his experience, plus all the great skills he has got, they all make him the complete player."[295] ”

— Alex Ferguson, Ronaldo's manager at Manchester United, in 2013


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Post by Pip Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:29 pm

Valkyrja wrote:
Pippo wrote:
Valkyrja wrote:Please. He is a complete player now, even Ferguson said. He just lost some of his dribbling skills(he's still a good dribbler), but he added much more. He is by far the most dangerous player in the box, being able to finish from any position, with both legs, and with the head. His link-up play is very good, his decision making is much better than it was at Utd, his passing and vision improved, he's much more of a team player, his long shots are better. Moreover his off-the-ball movement is by far the best in football.
rofl

Cristiano was a more complete player at Manchester United than he is right now. Not only did he score goals in abundance, he was a phenomenal winger and a wide forward. He could beat multiple defenders off the dribble, was extremely dangerous on-the-ball and off-the-ball, was equally adept terrorizing the fullback or drifting inside. Nowadays he plays almost solely through the middle, is not as creative and dangerous than he used to be.

The only thing he has improved now is his goal-scoring and he has limited his overall ability to maximize his goal-scoring prowess. He's not more of a team player now, he never was one in the first place. His long shots are not better. His passing has not improved. He's simply become more predatory in front of goal.

That post makes it seem like you've actually never seen him play at Manchester United. Just because he scores 60 goals now doesn't make him a complete player. He still has the same physical abilities like speed and jumping, his dribbling has reduced greatly, his explosiveness has reduced, and his on-ball influence has reduced. All for more goals.
'

Said it all :facepalm:

It looks like you know him better than this guy

"Maturity brings many things. When I went to see them play against City, some of his decision-making in terms of passing was brilliant. One-touch passing, good crosses. In the six years we had him, you just saw his game grow all the time, and he was a fantastic player. Now you see the complete player. His decision-making, his maturity, his experience, plus all the great skills he has got, they all make him the complete player."[295] ”
 
— Alex Ferguson, Ronaldo's manager at Manchester United, in 2013

Did Ferguson say that he was not a complete player beforehand? You look at what René Meulensteen did with Cristiano Ronaldo and you see someone who was already a complete attacker before he left Manchester United.

Look at this interview with Meulensteen before you think that a quote from Ferguson seals an argument. Meulensteen was the first team coach and everything he said was accurate. Everything Ferguson said in that quote, Meulensteen worked on with Cristiano before the 2008 season. He was a complete attacker before Real Madrid, anyone that has actually seen him play would know that.

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Post by Dnmac4 Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:36 pm

DuringTheWar wrote:
Dnmac4 wrote:I'm so tired of hearing people cry that there is no criteria to the Balon D'or.  It's very simple and people want to make the award difficult because they are mad at the outcome.

Very simply the award is for the best player in a calendar year.  The last 4 years running that player has been Leo Messi hands down.  I don't even really understand what the argument even is.  

You wont see a player have the numbers and trophies that Messi does over a 4 year span maybe never again in our lifetimes.

And now we have to participate in some dumb argument that a guy who is probably the third or fourth best player on his own team (Neuer, Lahm) and put up pedestrian statistics (1 freaking goal and 2 assists in the 11 CL games he played in last year and 10 league goals in a wide open league) for someone competing against Messi and Ronaldo is the best player in the world.

I mean really people stop trying to put these arguments together, he plays on a great team and the TEAM deserves every award they get but as an INDIVIDUAL he is not in the same league as Ronaldo and Messi.

I liken this discussion to one I had with my little cousin the other day who asked me if Michael Jordan was so great why did he only win 5 MVP's?  

And the answer is simple they got tired of giving to him which looks like what people are doing now with Messi.  Was Barkley or Malone better than Jordan, no not a chance, not even close.  Did they have better seasons those years, nope.  Again they just got tired of giving it to him and when you look back on it now it seems pretty superficial and quite stupid for those two to beat Jordan to the award.

The same as looking back on it now it seems pretty dumb for Cannavaro to have won the Balon D'or when he won it.  IT just doesn't fit.
That basically means it automatically goes to the most talented player as long as he stayed fit and in form for most of the year. Would be completely pointless. Id rather have an award that went to the player who achieved the most greatness that year. And that means winning something big or doing something else of equal greatness
So by your logic since Bayern won the Champions League last year the guy who scored 1 FREAKING GOAL in that tournament should get the individual credit for driving Bayern to the title????

Do you even realize what a joke it is to give the best player in the world award to a forward/attacker who scored 1 goal in the worlds premeire competition that year? I mean really, how silly.

As for the rest of your post,

"That basically means it automatically goes to the most talented player as long as he stayed fit and in form for most of the year."

YES for god's sake. It's an individual award. Trophies are the awards teams receive for excellence. The award is for the best player in the world that year. If the best player is on form and stays injury free he should get the award, plain and simple because he's THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:02 am

DuringTheWar wrote:That basically means it automatically goes to the most talented player as long as he stayed fit and in form for most of the year. Would be completely pointless. Id rather have an award that went to the player who achieved the most greatness that year. And that means winning something big or doing something else of equal greatness
But then again, if the greatest team does not have a particular player that stood head and shoulders from the rest, does it make sense to reward the most talented person from that team just because he won the most? I'm not saying Ribery doesn't deserve it, I think he does (although not necessarily more than Mueller, Neuer, Martinez or Schweini), but I wouldn't be outraged either if Messi gets it.
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Post by rwo power Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:20 am

Jack Daniels wrote:Hey being complete at what you're supposed to do doesn't mean you're the "complete player" everybody demands you to be. I expect Neuer to score at least 10 goals and make them assists next season.
Rogério Ceni for Ballon d'Or! What more can someone achieve than being a goalkeeper who scored more than 100 career goals by now? Razz
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Post by Dnmac4 Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:33 am

It's pretty hard to believe that the Ribery supporters are just willing to look past the 1 goal in 11 games in the Champions League last year (The most important Tournament) and then in the next breath say he's deserves the award because he lead Bayern to the Champions League title.

He is an attacker for heavens sake, not a defender or even a midfielder.

I mean can you even imagine the stuff that would be said about Messi and especially Ronaldo if they scored 1 goal in the Champions League in 11 games, I mean people would crucify them to no end.

And Ribery get's judged on a totally different scale, for what reason? Because you're tired of Messi and Ronaldo?

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Post by rwo power Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:07 am

Or maybe it is because in the Bundesliga, one just doesn't score as many goals as CRonaldo or Messi as here everything is more down to teamwork? It is not just last season that in the BL the goal scoring duty lies with several players per team and the Torjägerkanone is normally won with less than 30 goals and sometimes even as few as 17 or 18:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Torsch%C3%BCtzenk%C3%B6nige_der_Fu%C3%9Fball-Bundesliga#Liste_der_Torsch.C3.BCtzenk.C3.B6nige
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Post by Dnmac4 Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:41 am

rwo power wrote:Or maybe it is because in the Bundesliga, one just doesn't score as many goals as CRonaldo or Messi as here everything is more down to teamwork? It is not just last season that in the BL the goal scoring duty lies with several players per team and the Torjägerkanone is normally won with less than 30 goals and sometimes even as few as 17 or 18:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Torsch%C3%BCtzenk%C3%B6nige_der_Fu%C3%9Fball-Bundesliga#Liste_der_Torsch.C3.BCtzenk.C3.B6nige
That's great and I'm sure you know a whole lot about the German league but I'm talking about the Champions League where all of Europe play and you play against the best teams in all of Europe.

Again, it's some excuse that just totally ignores that Ribery was not the person who Led Bayern to the Champions League title in fact as an attacker he was quite pedestrian with 1 goal and 2 assists in 11 games. Hell 3 players on his team scored more in League play then he did. This notion that he was the driving force behind Bayern's season last year is such a myth.

And the German league is great, I love the football they play but let's not go and pretend it's some super league where they play a brand of defense seen nowhere else in the world and Ronaldo and Messi wouldn't score a insane amount of goals. They prove it year in and year out in the champions league that the score at a crazy rate no mater what competition there in.

If you take Ronaldo and Messi out of La Liga the scoring charts are pretty much exactly the same give or take a goal or 2 here or there as you can see below.

It's not that La Liga teams just don't know how to play defense it's that La Liga especially last year boasts some of the best attacking players in the world as you can see by how many were bought by other teams in the transfer market looking for some firepower.
Spanish League
Radamel Falcao Atlético Madrid 28
Álvaro Negredo Sevilla 25
Roberto Soldado Valencia 24
Rubén Castro Betis 18
Piti Rayo Vallecano 18
Gonzalo Higuaín Real Madrid 16
Aritz Aduriz Athletic Bilbao 14
Hélder Postiga Zaragoza 14
Carlos Vela Real Sociedad 14

German League
Stefan Kiessling 25
Robert Lewandowski 23
Alexander Meier 16
Vedad Ibisevic 15
Marco Reus 15
Mario Mandzukic 15
Thomas Muller 13
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Post by rwo power Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:52 am

Well, with Ronaldo and Messi you might argue they score as much as they are in the best teams of the league and the teams are specifically set up to have them score lots of goals.

Interestingly, in the BL you had Bayern leading the scoring chart with 98 goals last season, and still their highest scorer only got 15 goals (next were Müller with 13, and Gomez with 11).

My point is that in the BL teams rarely are set up to depend as much on one player as for example Barca and Real are. I think there is a different philosophy there, and I doubt Messi or CRonaldo could score as many goals here as the team set-up just has a different philosophy.
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Post by Le Samourai Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:58 am

Can it be that some value the success and functioning of the team as a criteria for handling the award?

A couple years ago I thought Sneijder should have won it...not because he scored goals, not even because he was the most decisive player on his team in crucial moments, but because overall, his season exemplified what people seem reluctant to value.

He exerted the greatest influence of any player on two different teams, both of which had a great deal of success that year. Perhaps he didn't carry anyone, he didn't have to, because he allowed the talent around him to carry themselves. Him not winning it that year, for me, was incredibly disappointing.

This year, I hear some attaching Ribery's claim to Sneijder's previous one. That's such a distortion of the truth. In the dying stages of the CL I thought he was downright poor at times, near choking, and was lifted by fantastic performances from Muller, and later Robben. In the Bundesliga, they won with about 2 months to spare because the only other team capable of competing lacked the necessary depth to balance both the league and the CL. And once again, Ribery was arguably not the most influential player on that team.

Nevertheless, he might just win it, if only because people are tired of Ronaldo and Messi. I can't help but think that that's how this award works anyway, so there's little point even getting too into it.

Football is about the success of the team, I'm sure if you ask Ronaldo or Messi what they value more - it would be those trophies rather than the swing vote individual ones they stumbled into.
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Post by FalcaoPunch Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:09 am

What's also funny is the excuse for sneijder not winning it in 2010 is "look at Wesley sneijder NOW"

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Post by Pip Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:10 am

Sneijder's 2010 year is overrated.

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Post by Arquitecto Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:17 am

This again?

Messi and Cristiano score that much within there teams because they are that good and a level above anyone within the Bundesliga.

Lewandowski had 36 goals followed by Reus (19) and Goetze (16) Kuba (14)

Pointing out Cristiano only is skewed, considering Benzema had 20, Higuain 18, and Oezil 10. Two of the CFs in constant rotation.

2012-13 Kiessling carried Bayern with 25 goals, the rest not even close.

Meier with his 16 and the main goalscoring component for Eintracht. Same with Ibesevic, Szalai, Diouf etc.

Messi and Ronaldo's goalscoring numbers do not dictate such a heavy reliance on either players.

Although a case can be made for Messi, considering the form of the rest of their forwards including injuries.
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Post by Red Alert Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:21 am

Ronaldo has 56 goals in 50 games in 2013 ffs. There's still 2 months to go.

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Post by Valkyrja Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:54 am

If Ronaldo continues at this rate, he'll reach 70 goals this season in 55 games.
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Post by FennecFox7 Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:50 pm

Damn even dnmac is defending cr lol
Some people go great lengths to hate players lol. Ribery can't finish, is weak physically, sucks in the air, plays it safe 90% of the time, is inconsistant and plays on a team that carries his ass. Yeah.. no weaknesses
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Post by FennecFox7 Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:52 pm

And I don't even hate ribery. But if were gonna judge a forward by his workrate, I guess gomez and tevez eat them all alive..
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Post by Pip Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:43 am

Can you name 3 matches for Bayern this year where Ribéry was below-average? Because Ribéry is actually not inconsistent, at all.

Plays it safe 90% of the time? scratch Almost all of their play goes through him.

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Post by Harmonica Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:05 am

Pippo wrote:Can you name 3 matches for Bayern this year where Ribéry was below-average? Because Ribéry is actually not inconsistent, at all.

Plays it safe 90% of the time? :scratch:Almost all of their play goes through him.
Wolfsburg 0 - 2 Bayern
Mainz 0 - 3 Bayern
Arsenal 1 - 3 Bayern



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Post by Pip Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:13 am

Harmonica wrote:
Pippo wrote:Can you name 3 matches for Bayern this year where Ribéry was below-average? Because Ribéry is actually not inconsistent, at all.

Plays it safe 90% of the time? :scratch:Almost all of their play goes through him.
Wolfsburg 0 - 2 Bayern
Mainz 0 - 3 Bayern
Arsenal 1 - 3 Bayern
No
No
Yes

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