Ramsey vs Pogba

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Post by FilthyLuca Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:05 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Ok Laughing

Ask anyone on this forum and they will tell you i do watch Juventus.... they are on TV almost every other week lol.

Because i'm not blinded to Pogba's imperfections like you don't mean i'm wrong..... he's lazy off the ball and doesn't track his runners.... Conte clearly doesn't let him rot on the bench because he's starting every week despite these imperfections.

I never said he's awful there btw but has a lot to learn to before he can be the next Vieira or best MF in the world etc etc....

Compared to Marchisio and Vidal he's very very lazy and can be seen caught ball watching many many games as well as the standard not tracking his runners.


Off the ball his intelligence also needs a lot of improvement before he can be spoke about in such terms.... as i said on the ball he's an offensive juggernaut but off the ball compared to the other elite CMs he has a lot to learn.

Now run along kid.
Whohohoa....BURN!

whatever you say buddy, ok compared to Vidal and Marchisio, two BBMs known for their hustle hes lazy so therefore hes " a lazy *bleep* who offers zilch defensively".

but yeah make it seem like im blinded blah blah blah

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Post by Casciavit Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:07 pm

Pogba is class, however I agree with Mole he seems a bit lazy defensively and off the ball.

As for Thiago, the guy has been injured the whole season. He should come back later this month. If all goes to plan he could be starting against Dortmund.

They'll should both develop into world class players, Thiago is seeming a bit injury prone though.
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Post by FilthyLuca Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:09 pm

Casciavit wrote:Pogba is class, however I agree with Mole he seems a bit lazy defensively and off the ball.

As for Thiago, the guy has been injured the whole season. He should come back later this month. If all goes to plan he could be starting against Dortmund.

They'll both develop into world class players, Thiago is seeming a bit injury prone though.
seems perfectly reasonable, don't know how you can say that about him off the ball after the Madrid and napoli games, but to each his own.

they'll both be world class in a few

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Post by sportsczy Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:40 pm

I don't think too many completely understand Conte's system.... it's zonal all over the pitch, offensively and defensively.  If a player leaves your zone, you're supposed to release him as long as there's cover.  That's the difficult part:  You have to quickly figure out whether there's cover or not.  

Carlo is trying to implement that at Madrid too... but it's been disastrous with players like Illara and Isco.  They can't read the game at all.  Also, our back 4 aren't disciplined enough.  It's only gotten better because Alonso is a tactical genius tbh and Varane is smart.  

So before you write off a player as being "lazy"... understand what you're talking about.  Is he slow in making that read and, as a result, players get behind him sometimes?  Sure.  He's only been playing in top league for 1.5 years.  But his mistakes are rare AND he's playing in the most tactically demanding position in that kind of system (midfield).  Absolutely nothing to do with effort in any case.
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Post by DuringTheWar Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:23 pm

I don't watch juve in serie a often but when I do, its always the same impression, that pogba has one of the easiest jobs in world football. Opponents don't put pressure on midfield, so he has time and space to try whatever he wants, and he has 2 GOATS in midfield making everything work easier. He'd have to be a total scrub not to do well. So far im still very unconvinced about his ability under pressure, you can see has some tricks to get away from pressure, but at the same time when someone does get tight to him he makes plenty of mistakes. Besides that he also is bad at reading the game as sportsczy unbelievably admitted. Not much pace either to get out of trouble

Comparing him with zidane is beyond a joke

besides his cannon shot and occasionally decent first touch, and sporadic tricks, im not seeing some world class talent
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Post by LeBéninois Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:29 pm

jibers wrote:
jibers wrote:I agree with Mole. That is one of the reasons I was skeptical about how he would do in a 2 man pivote like we play. He loses his marker quit often but he is improving game by game. TBH i doubt that aspect of his game will improve drastically as he always has cover from either Vidal or Pirlo. Still a valid point by Scousma...Mole...Sad
Dude sometimes Pogba let's players run by. No need to go mental ffs. It is what it is. And where did mole say Thiago was better than Pogba ???

.... Are you answering at your own post ??
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Post by Ion Creanga Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:39 pm

DuringTheWar wrote:I don't watch juve in serie a often but when I do, its always the same impression, that pogba has one of the easiest jobs in world football. Opponents don't put pressure on midfield, so he has time and space to try whatever he wants, and he has 2 GOATS in midfield making everything work easier. He'd have to be a total scrub not to do well. So far im still very unconvinced about his ability under pressure, you can see has some tricks to get away from pressure, but at the same time when someone does get tight to him he makes plenty of mistakes. Besides that he also is bad at reading the game as sportsczy unbelievably admitted. Not much pace either to get out of trouble

Comparing him with zidane is beyond a joke

besides his cannon shot and occasionally decent first touch, and sporadic tricks, im not seeing some world class talent
oh my god
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Post by Kaladin Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:01 pm

I can vouch for Mole, he's on chat for Serie A more times than during EPL games. Heck, he watches more Serie A games than EPL.

Anyways, Pogba is great talent. But like many have stated beforehand, he has his fair share of concerns. I feel as if he doesn't read the game well defensively as he'd like to, but he compensates that with his offensive abilities. I'm sure that he has a high ceiling but i do not know if that he will be able to cope with the tactical demands of being a midfielder. Of course, time is on his side, and he is still very young. He may yet even evolve his game
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Post by sportsczy Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:07 pm

Watch France NT against Ukraine.  He plays the double pivot role since France play a 4231... he is excellent.  Dominant in fact, which is why Deschamps has decided to go full out attack with him and Matuidi to man the middle.  Didn't do that without Pogba because the midfield was crap.

He is played out of position at Juve as is Marchisio because the system is built around Pirlo.  In reality, Pogba's best position is the Alonso/Pirlo, which he has played for France NT at every level.  Also played that role when a youth player at Man U.

Shows his versatility that he can play an attacking role that he doesn't prefer for Juve.  

He's not a DM, which is what you guys think he is.  He's Vieira.

And nobody worth their salt compared him to Zidane lol. They play completely differently. Probably came from British journalists who are about as knowledgeable in footy as my right arse cheek.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:13 pm

I don't think he's a DM.... i still think he needs to improve defensively and his off the ball intelligence, work rate etc etc though. ( Vidal isn't a DM but he's in another league defensively)

To me to be compared to the likes of Vieira and be called a player who will be the best bar none some day soon you have to be a defensive juggernaut as well as an offensive one.

I don't see a player whose defensive game is refined as his offensive one yet, i'm sure it will come and i believe it will.

All i was saying that right now he has a lot to learn to be compared in such lights like any young player.

Whether he makes that next step will prove whether he is the player everything believes he should become or just a great player who didn't reach his potential because he didn't refine his weaknesses.

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Post by sportsczy Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:16 pm

I meant Vieira in the making... he has that kind of skillset.  But he's just 20 lol.  Of course he's not perfect right now...

One thing to keep in mind is that he went from the season into the U20 WC training and tournament and immediately back into the next season... he's never rested at Juve either now. It's like players who go far in the WC. They always look slightly less explosive after the WC.

He really needs the winter break.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:34 pm

I somewhat agree with Mole, but not to the extend that Pogba is 'lazy'

Sure, that's the one area of his game that he can and should work on, but Sports has a point to. He has a role and he's doing it perfectly well

As for looking lazy next to Vidal and/or Marchisio...

Well. They're two of the most energetic midfielders out there. Pogba's also a lot bigger than those two, and can't get around the pitch as effectively.

As for 'duringthewar' and his post Laughing

You clearly know nothing, pls go.
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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:09 pm

Pogba.

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Post by Forza Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:14 am

Pogba has been better for longer.

He was superb last season, he was superb at the U-20 WC, he has been promoted to the French NT, and he is playing extremely well this season.

Ramsey has had an exceptionally good  10 or so games this season after being mediocre or worse last season. Being played out of position you say, whole season long injury recovery you say - I don't care for excuses.

I think Pogba is the more proven player and has star quality, the kind of skill that allows him to regularly decide the result of games against the highest calibre of opponents and spark his team into action when they aren't performing well. Look at the competition in Juve's midfield - Marchisio, Pirlo, Vidal. To break into that you have to be one hell of a player.
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Post by Forza Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:21 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Pogba isn't getting anywhere close to his so called ceiling if he keeps being a lazy *bleep* and offering zilch defensively.

At this point he's a Yaya clone.
Although I can see where you're coming from with the "Yaya clone" comment, I think this is a very harsh assessment of Pogba's work-rate and defensive capabilities - his ability to win the ball back and start attacks is fantastic, especially for such an inexperienced player.
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Post by urbaNRoots Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:03 am

Forza wrote:Pogba has been better for longer.

He was superb last season, he was superb at the U-20 WC, he has been promoted to the French NT, and he is playing extremely well this season.

Ramsey has had an exceptionally good  10 or so games this season after being mediocre or worse last season. Being played out of position you say, whole season long injury recovery you say - I don't care for excuses.

I think Pogba is the more proven player and has star quality, the kind of skill that allows him to regularly decide the result of games against the highest calibre of opponents and spark his team into action when they aren't performing well. Look at the competition in Juve's midfield - Marchisio, Pirlo, Vidal. To break into that you have to be one hell of a player.
You're wrong about Ramsey being crap last season, don't talk about things you don't know. Ramsey and Arteta pretty much carried Arsenal to a 4th place finish.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:30 am

ramsey was very inconsistent last year and i watched almost every Arsenal match.  Great talent.  But this is the first time i've seen him put together a run of good games....  good for him. He wasn't often bad last year... but he alternated between being good and just ok. This year, he's more often good than not.
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Post by Forza Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:12 am

urbaNRoots wrote:
Forza wrote:Pogba has been better for longer.

He was superb last season, he was superb at the U-20 WC, he has been promoted to the French NT, and he is playing extremely well this season.

Ramsey has had an exceptionally good  10 or so games this season after being mediocre or worse last season. Being played out of position you say, whole season long injury recovery you say - I don't care for excuses.

I think Pogba is the more proven player and has star quality, the kind of skill that allows him to regularly decide the result of games against the highest calibre of opponents and spark his team into action when they aren't performing well. Look at the competition in Juve's midfield - Marchisio, Pirlo, Vidal. To break into that you have to be one hell of a player.
You're wrong about Ramsey being crap last season, don't talk about things you don't know. Ramsey and Arteta pretty much carried Arsenal to a 4th place finish.
Please, I saw a fair share of Arsenal games last season. And I did not say "crap". Just because I am being critical of some of his performances last season does not mean that I think he was downright awful, otherwise I would've said that. The fact is that at no time last season did Ramsey play as well or better than he has this season and I stand firmly behind that opinion. Good to see that sports has backed me up on this.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:22 pm

Basically, Ramsey built some momentum at the end of last year and continued on it in this one.  Diaby and Wilshere both being hurt gave him the opportunity to play CM...  Before that, you had Arteta and Wilshere as CMs, Cazorla as the AM, Walcott/Giroud starting as forwards and a rotation of Ox/Podolski/Gervinho/Ramsey for the LW position.  Got his chance at his natural position and took it...
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Post by RealGunner Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:34 pm

Forza wrote:Pogba has been better for longer.

He was superb last season, he was superb at the U-20 WC, he has been promoted to the French NT, and he is playing extremely well this season.

Ramsey has had an exceptionally good  10 or so games this season after being mediocre or worse last season. Being played out of position you say, whole season long injury recovery you say - I don't care for excuses.

I think Pogba is the more proven player and has star quality, the kind of skill that allows him to regularly decide the result of games against the highest calibre of opponents and spark his team into action when they aren't performing well. Look at the competition in Juve's midfield - Marchisio, Pirlo, Vidal. To break into that you have to be one hell of a player.
No he wasn't mediocre or worse last season.
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Post by Cassius Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:31 am

It may just be me but i get the feeling Pogba is being called lazy ala Berbatov. I understand what people are saying when they say he doesnt always track his man but I dont think he is getting enough credit because from what I have seen he does indeed track his man the majority of the time. And if not he puts in 110% to win the ball back.

He'll be one cracker of a player when he gets his head around the tactical side of the game though. The boys got everything but that at such a young age.

Im so jealous of him Proud
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Post by Lex Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:49 pm

Ramsey was simply unplayable today :bow:
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Post by Lex Sat May 17, 2014 8:45 pm

I love polishing this thread off Thumbs up
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Post by Valkyrja Sat May 17, 2014 8:54 pm

If we go for Pogba instead of this guy  :facepalm: 
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Post by Lex Sat May 17, 2014 8:57 pm

Might as well go for Pogba cos you definitely won't get Ramsey Laughing
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Post by El Gunner Sat May 17, 2014 9:30 pm

Rambo!
What a guy!
What a player!
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