'The Messiah' - Lionel Messi V.2

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Post by The Franchise Sun 21 Jun - 2:40

That didnt tell me anything, im sorry to say.

Who here complained that Messi doesnt run great distances? Nobody.

The complaints are what kinds of movements he makes and when.

He can run as little distance as he wants, I dont care..however again, if an opponent is standing 3m from him he could do more than standing and watching him.

Not a scientist in the world can explain to me why it makes sense he can sprint 30 times with the ball, but not half that number without it.

His body invites him to walk? Thats called lazy where im from Laughing

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Post by ahmad25 Sun 21 Jun - 3:04

I think running with the ball takes more energy than running without it. Extra muscles work to control the ball and push it while running. Considering he makes those runs twice more than any other player his energy will dry out.and he plays every 90 minutes compared to others

Im still surprised how he doesnt get injured in copa america after such heavy hard working season. I guess problems will start at the beggining of the new season
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Post by Myesyats Sun 21 Jun - 8:33

Incredible site for stat freaks

http://messi.starplayerstats.com/en
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Post by free_cat Mon 22 Jun - 1:43

The Franchise wrote:That didnt tell me anything, im sorry to say.

Who here complained that Messi doesnt run great distances? Nobody.

The complaints are what kinds of movements he makes and when.

He can run as little distance as he wants, I dont care..however again, if an opponent is standing 3m from him he could do more than standing and watching him.

Not a scientist in the world can explain to me why it makes sense he can sprint 30 times with the ball, but not half that number without it.

His body invites him to walk? Thats called lazy where im from Laughing


That's actually untrue, many people complained that Messi doesn't run enough generally, not in specific situations.

From Buenaventura explanation, it's clear that if Messi sometimes he doesn't press when he is 3m away from the ball, it's because he doesn't feel physically he should do that pressing.

Buenaventura explains quite clearly that Barça physical coaches (at least since he was at the club) don't try to improve Messi's stamina - when he talks about oxygen consumption - so that he can keep his quickness etc, so it's obvious that Messi's stamina is not very well trained, aside for not being naturally gifted.
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Post by messixaviesta Sat 27 Jun - 4:24

At the end of the day there remains that one tiny question mark against the name of Lionel Messi.

We are talking about a player who is almost surely the best that most of us have seen play live to date. We are talking about a player who is head and shoulders above all else in his era. We are talking about a player who can do almost anything in the game and do most of those things to the nth degree of perfection and that too on an unbelievably consistent basis.

Even then somehow we never quite get to see that player in international competition. Messi is certainly not an international flop, very far from it. If he were any other player we would be talking about how well he's played from time to time. However the Messi that is an era defining superstar is just not seen.

We could say that he doesn't get the best team structure around him, we could say that he doesn't get the best coaches, we could say that he is often closed down and stopped by foul means, we could say that opposition goalkeepers and defenders tend to have their career best performances against him, etc. but does even all that completely answer this question.

Messi got to play in the final of WC 2014 which could and should have been his career's most important match and of all days he chose that day to have an underwhelming performance. He won player of the tournament at WC 2014 but many did not agree with that decision. He could and probably will even win the best player at Copa America 2015. Yet where are those swashbuckling, mind blowing, era defining performances for Argentina that he is used to producing for Barcelona so regularly?

A few months back I used to say that Messi needs to do more in international football in order to definitively be in the top ten players of all time. He has certainly done that much now. The points that I am making don't really matter against his contemporaries. They probably don't even matter when we talk about the top 100 players of all time. However I think they do matter when we talk about the top 10, 5, 3 or 1 of all time.

When pitted against the Peles, Maradonas and Cruyffs of this world, this one question may lead to Messi coming up short in the eyes of some. Does he still have time to change all this? A little time he has but not too much I am afraid. He'll be 31 by the time the next world cup rolls around and some of his physical qualities may have deteriorated by then. Can he still have that one major performance in international football that generations will use as a reference point? I hope so but I am not too sure of it.

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Post by Bankz Sat 27 Jun - 4:41

True. Couldn't have said it better.
While he is a floo by no means, he isn't better than your average great player in NT duties. He's usually just okay to very good but nothing special. Just as this copa America, the world cup mvp was a shock to most people, they somehow always manage to give him this best players award consistently when he hardly lights up any international tournaments..
But the million dollar question remains, WHY? I can really place my fingers on anything as Argentina are not short on talent or morally low on era. Or could it be a curse that accompanies an immaculate/perfect club career?
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Post by neuro11 Sat 27 Jun - 7:07

nice attempt on trolling @Bankz. i am sure you have not yet recovered what Neymar have done recently.

@JD, i completely agree with what you have said. you could not have written it any better of what exactly has been going through my mind. as much as i love watching him and lifting every trophy out there, no excuses are enough for the consolations that he failed to win any NT trophy even though playing in so many competitions. I also wonder whether he will finish his career with such a huge frustration. I too don see think are enough time for him to do something extraordinary

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Post by Bankz Sat 27 Jun - 8:18

Leave the scrub nerman out of this for Christ sake, he disgraced himself and I don't see why I should console him for that or Can't I make an innocent comment without u saying I'm trolling or bringing up Neymar? as if everything is about him Or is that how you attack jiopsi for attacking Neymar anytime something good is said bout him? What's this ffs?
Anyway, my point still stands, and what xaviesta said is totally on point. Simple as that.
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Post by ahmad25 Sat 27 Jun - 9:45

Nobody plays better than messi be it argentina or barcelona. You can watch each player's individual highlights to compare. If you have any candidate name it hmm

I'd even say during last season only few players did what messi did vs colombia. His average performance is better than 90% players great performance. You just want him dribble 4 players and score or you will not be satisfied
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Post by windkick Sat 27 Jun - 11:26

Ya'll thought he was slightly above average vs Columbia? Even with them hacking him and double marking him every time he got the ball he was still able to do magic. Watching him keep running after hack after hack in tight spaces and making the right passes is unbelievable. Aside from scoring, which allot had to do with Ospinas stellar game he would of.

Winning a trophy with a NT also comes down to luck. I mean you have to be born in a generation with an ENTIRE team from back to front that's not only great, but can mesh with you, and you also have to have a manger that can make it work (you also have the referees etc that come into the equation). All this comes down to luck. Look at Mexico, our best player ever missed an entire World Cup because the rest of the team sucked and wasn't on his level....that doesn't mean he sucks that means he was unlucky to be born in a crap generation (talking about Hugo Sanchez). And look at how organized Germany is, how much more structure it has than a country like Argentina who seems to rely allot on developing naturally gifted talents than building and teaching fundamentals like Germany/Spain does

I never understood people who use the winning with the NT > winning with club argument. That's like saying you can win EVERYTHING in 4 years, but if you show up to the world cup and don't score in the 3 group games you are over rated. Theres so many variables that can happen in 3 games, and thats not even counting the knock out stage matches, that you can judge over a years span with the club. Look at Barca players, they benefited big time (not saying they wouldn't of won anyway), that with Spain they were still pretty much playing the same way with the same players they were all season. Messi has to fly halfway around the world to train with guys he only sees that one instance in a different system and allot of times they play him in a new position with different tactics.

Idk, I just find the whole "a player must win the World Cup or he isn't a goat" argument silly.

That said, I've yet to read Messixaviesta's post so for all I know I just contributed to a something different than what ya'll are talking about, lol. Sorry I'm hungover
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sat 27 Jun - 14:27

Viral video for Messi's (mostly Argentine) haters



(turn on cc for english subs)
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Post by neuro11 Sat 27 Jun - 21:35

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Viral video for Messi's (mostly Argentine) haters



(turn on cc for english subs)


That theme song from Inception and the miss vs. Germany together are enough to bring tears Sad

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Post by futbol Sat 27 Jun - 21:51

neuro11 wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Viral video for Messi's (mostly Argentine) haters



(turn on cc for english subs)


That theme song from Inception and the miss vs. Germany together are enough to bring tears Sad


Tears of joy. Proud

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Post by messixaviesta Sun 28 Jun - 1:52

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Viral video for Messi's (mostly Argentine) haters



(turn on cc for english subs)

alfred, very nice video but is there still hatred towards Messi in Argentina? Why?


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Post by messixaviesta Sun 28 Jun - 1:54

All, thanks for the replies. I agree that Messi's performance vs. Colombia was very good. Let's hope that Argentina will win Copa America 2015 and then at least there will be no need to say that he hasn't won an international trophy.

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Post by neuro11 Sun 28 Jun - 5:37

guess, he will never receive the due respect from the Argentines. say, if he would have chosen Spain over Argentina he would have everything right now just like xavi and iniesta and Spain probably would have won more than one WC title and dominated the world for few more years. He has chosen Argentina only to receive hatred.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sun 28 Jun - 5:43

messixaviesta wrote:All, thanks for the replies. I agree that Messi's performance vs. Colombia was very good. Let's hope that Argentina will win Copa America 2015 and then at least there will be no need to say that he hasn't won an international trophy.
Because he hasn't won anything. They're in the minority by now, though.
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Post by The Franchise Sun 28 Jun - 6:04

free_cat wrote:
The Franchise wrote:That didnt tell me anything, im sorry to say.

Who here complained that Messi doesnt run great distances? Nobody.

The complaints are what kinds of movements he makes and when.

He can run as little distance as he wants, I dont care..however again, if an opponent is standing 3m from him he could do more than standing and watching him.

Not a scientist in the world can explain to me why it makes sense he can sprint 30 times with the ball, but not half that number without it.

His body invites him to walk? Thats called lazy where im from Laughing


That's actually untrue, many people complained that Messi doesn't run enough generally, not in specific situations.

From Buenaventura explanation, it's clear that if Messi sometimes he doesn't press when he is 3m away from the ball, it's because he doesn't feel physically he should do that pressing.

Buenaventura explains quite clearly that Barça physical coaches (at least since he was at the club) don't try to improve Messi's stamina - when he talks about oxygen consumption - so that he can keep his quickness etc, so it's obvious that Messi's stamina is not very well trained, aside for not being naturally gifted.

Nobody on here complained that. So maybe there are many people as you say, I just never hear from them. People who just say "he is lazy, doesnt run"...you cant take that to mean they want him to run a marathon on the pitch. It is up to "you" to ask what they actually mean, rather than make assumptions.

Yeah, anyway with all due respect to Mr. Buenaventura the explanation doesnt work for me.
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Post by free_cat Mon 29 Jun - 5:59

Lol, people and especially Alexjanosik complaint all the time he walks too much, not going into detail in "specific situations".
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed 1 Jul - 15:09

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Post by messixaviesta Sat 4 Jul - 8:42

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
messixaviesta wrote:All, thanks for the replies. I agree that Messi's performance vs. Colombia was very good. Let's hope that Argentina will win Copa America 2015 and then at least there will be no need to say that he hasn't won an international trophy.
Because he hasn't won anything. They're in the minority by now, though.

Glad to know they are in the minority by now and hopefully after tonight that not winning anything would be gone for ever.


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Post by messixaviesta Sat 4 Jul - 8:42

After a long time a Goal.com article that I really liked.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2015/07/04/13274212/messis-right-winning-the-copa-america-would-mean-as-much-as?ICID=OP


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Post by windkick Sat 4 Jul - 15:19

Seeing him lost chance at glory back to back Argentina is tough.

Never understood why in both games Higuain was out there and not Tevez. Also Kun is about as much a flop as Higuain

At least now him and Masch can rest and prepare for the following season.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sat 4 Jul - 15:46

Tevez and Higgy both got chances in the past 5 games, and Higgy scored twice and Tevez didn't. Bringing him on wasn't a mistake. Having him kick your 2nd penalty is (although to be fair Garay, the 2nd kicker last time, was out injured).
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Post by messixaviesta Sun 5 Jul - 1:58

I don't doubt Messi's talent one slightest bit but being the best that can possibly be is about a little more than talent. Does Messi lack just a little bit in terms of heart and mental toughness in the tightest, hardest and most crucial of occasions? Maybe having top quality players in Barcelona alongside him, some of whom are marginally superior to him in terms of heart and mental toughness, makes us rarely see these shortcomings there but with the national team even though there are a few players like Mascherano who have as much heart and toughness as possible, not having as much talent as Barca, exposes these shortcomings of Messi all the more.

Maradona was Maradona not just for his talent but also for his determination, fighting spirit, mental toughness and leadership (ability to drive his team and bring the best out of others). Maybe in spite of being just as talented if not more Messi can never be Maradona and maybe this is the reason for it.

I never watched Maradona live but there are a few other players who I have watched for years who I think, had they been on the pitch instead of Messi last night, Argentina would have won. Maybe no one will agree with me but I think someone like Zinedine Zidane, Andres Iniesta, Xavi, Pavel Nedved, Steven Gerrard and a few others would have won the match for Argentina last night. We were superior to Chile on paper. They didn't have the big names that we had. What was most missing for us was the one player who could drive things from midfield. Argentina's play maker was Javier Pastore and while he has impressed me with his talent he has also convinced me that he has even less heart, toughness and personality than Messi. It's actually the much maligned Angel Di Maria who probably is the closest to the kind of player Argentina needed last night. Maybe he couldn't have done it but I think the ones I named would likely have done it.

Yes it's true that when Messi had the ball in the right area he was still capable of creating a magical moment and yes it's true that Higuain etc. bottled it big time but what's unforgivable is that this was only Messi's second (and maybe last) international final and he hid on the pitch for so long. Last year in the world cup final he had done something similar but this time it was even more conspicuous. Like alex, dani and a few others here have mentioned time and again laziness has become a disease that Messi just cannot be cured of any more. No one knew more than Messi just how important this was for Argentina and for Messi but he just didn't do enough to the extent that my eyes could barely believe what I was watching. Does the world's greatest player look unsure and scared just because the going has got tough and he is in a battle more than in a football match? Maybe in spite of the superstar that he has become within Messi there still lies that child that suffered from hormonal growth deficiencies and he happens to show himself in the most inopportune of occasions. I can't believe I am saying this but for the very first time I actually understand why some in Argentina don't like Messi and accept their point of view to some extent.

BTW let it be understood very clearly that Barcelona was never a one man team, at least not when we were at our best. Messi is Barca's best player but Barca is much more than Messi. When Messi in a major final sees Iniesta, Xavi, Suarez, Neymar, etc. next to him he feels that much more confidence that the team will win. Without them he loses belief really fast. Messi is essentially a comfort player who needs others to fight and work to make things rosy for him so that he can then work the kind of magic that only he is capable of. He is not a Maradona and cannot do it alone, whatever that may mean.

Maybe this is just a knee jerk reaction from me. Maybe more. I don't know and maybe will never know.

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Post by Winter is Coming Sun 5 Jul - 6:46

Is there something left to be desired from Messi performance for Argentina? Yes, but is his performance/contribution as bad as some people want to make it out to be? No.

The comparison of his performance with Barcelona and Argentina need to stop, with Barcelona there's a team that has an understanding, tactics, idea, philosophy, chemistry etc Argentina imo lack in this and it isn't Messi job for all the joking we do with Coachessi, it comes down to the coach poor subs, leaving some players who merit a shot at first team at home and so forth.

Argentina defence as shown in the last WC and this Copa was been solid but a lot to be desire from the midfield and attack on paper solid, but on the pitch mostly clueless.

If I'm not mistaken doesn't Messi play as a mid for Argentina?

And your pushing it when you say X player would've won Argentina the title last night lol especially Gerrard Laughing
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