Re: Gareth Bale discussion

by Ganso Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:17 pm

I completely agree with everything sports has posted in the last couple of pages.Bale will have to reinvent his game, and even then i can hardly think of him fitting in the team.Not just that but he will have to face immense psychological pressure for many reasons, like: being the most expensive footballer ever, having players like Benzema and Ozil behind him on the pecking order,the "must win every game" pressure in la liga,spanish media picking on him if he flops in a few games etc...

by Zealous Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:18 pm

Le Samourai wrote:I don't even understand the logic. It's something along the lines of Ozil don't play well if everyone else is playing poorly.

Well here's the thing - if Ozil plays well then the chances of everyone else playing well go up exponentially. Same with Benz. When they do on the pitch creates a positive flow of attack for everyone. It's the very definition of lifting the team.

Both are inconsistent - but the idea that the alignment of their peaks and troughs with that of the team as a whole is anything other than the greatest compliment they can be given does confuse me.

Bale has absolutely nothing on him other than shooting, not even consistency. If he moved to the PL people would be talking Balon D' Or, the things he would do given the space to run and pass in that league.

Don't misinterpret, I think Ozil is top shelf. Practically elite in his position and the large majority don't even come close to him for me but saying he's a player who won't play well unless his team mates are having a great game is a very fair statement, there's nothing wrong with that.

Van Persie for me is a similar type of player, he only really gets going if everyone else on his team is doing good but doesn't have that much impact if they aren't. And just like United shouldn't sell Van Persie, we shouldn't sell Ozil for any sum.

Benzema is a whole other kettle of fish, I've had my fill of discussions involving him. He'll be gone after this season anyway if he doesn't come up huge come winning time.

by Zealous Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:20 pm

Ganso wrote:I completely agree with everything sports has posted in the last couple of pages.Bale will have to reinvent his game, and even then i can hardly think of him fitting in the team.Not just that but he will have to face immense psychological pressure for many reasons, like: being the most expensive footballer ever, having players like Benzema and Ozil behind him on the pecking order,the "must win every game" pressure in la liga,spanish media picking on him if he flops in a few games etc...

Players who work hard more often than not get rewarded. Bale is a hard worker so I honestly think he has nothing to worry about.

Just needs to work hard and do his thing and his quality will shine through.

by Valkyrja Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:21 pm

Zealous wrote:
Le Samourai wrote:I don't even understand the logic. It's something along the lines of Ozil don't play well if everyone else is playing poorly.

Well here's the thing - if Ozil plays well then the chances of everyone else playing well go up exponentially. Same with Benz. When they do on the pitch creates a positive flow of attack for everyone. It's the very definition of lifting the team.

Both are inconsistent - but the idea that the alignment of their peaks and troughs with that of the team as a whole is anything other than the greatest compliment they can be given does confuse me.

Bale has absolutely nothing on him other than shooting, not even consistency. If he moved to the PL people would be talking Balon D' Or, the things he would do given the space to run and pass in that league.
Don't misinterpret, I think Ozil is top shelf. Practically elite in his position and the large majority don't even come close to him for me but saying he's a player who won't play well unless his team mates are having a great game is a very fair statement, there's nothing wrong with that.

Van Persie for me is a similar type of player, he only really gets going if everyone else on his team is doing good but doesn't have that much impact if they aren't. And just like United shouldn't sell Van Persie, we shouldn't sell Ozil for any sum.

Benzema is a whole other kettle of fish, I've had my fill of discussions involving him. He'll be gone after this season anyway if he doesn't come up huge come winning time.

But at the same time, in the last 3 seasons we played very badly when Ozil wasn't on the field, and I mean very badly any time he wasn't on the field. If he was the focal point of the team, like he is for Germany, he would be a game changer.

by Uncanny Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:45 pm

sportsczy wrote:The point is that Bale needs the team to be built around him where he gets the ball extremely often and he has the freedom to do what he wants... That's what made him effective this past year. Prior to last year, you had Modric and Van Der Vaart who had the midfield and creative responsibility and Bale was a traditional winger. He was ok... nothing all that special.

CR7 had the team built around him from day 1 at Madrid and that's not going to change with Bale. We also have guys who handle the midfield. Bale is going to become a winger again.

There is no other option unless CR7 leaves.

And Bale wasn't even in the same class as Benz or Di Maria until this past year. Can he adapt from being a superstar to a role player like these guys? I highly doubt it.

You can't have a guy become a game winner when nobody other than CR7 gets more than 3 shots per game... just can't happen. Having the confidence to take shots and making them comes with competitive repetition.

I really don't see it at all. Would have preferred a true 9 like Falcao since he doesn't need to see the ball that often and can still stay sharp. Cavani would have been fantastic too because he actually defends like a beast and can compensate there for CR7... and score.

Anyhow, i think Flo is playing FIFA or FM here. The whole concept is video game-ish...

Except before last year bale was 20/21... He's upping his game as he's growing up, but you do make valid points especially playing in a team where all the midfielders are pretty much superstars.

by Le Samourai Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:48 pm

I disagree with the whole concept of game changer. It's a faulty sample. If Ozil is playing well the entire team will almost certainly play well in turn.

He makes that happen.

People who shine when teammates when the team don't play well...it's much less commendable than what Ozil does. It means you're not actively playing for your teammates, your not trying to make the team function as it should.

by Cyborg Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:59 pm

selling ozil would be the worst thing madrid could do.

i dont think people realise how influencial he is. he does simple things very well. he creates. he is the best pure playmaker in the game at the moment. he isnt a defender, he isnt a striker, he isnt a winger. he is a playmaker, at its best.

cant believe someone said we should sell him. sacrilege.

by Nedved Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:25 am

Cyborg wrote: he isnt a defender, he isnt a striker, he isnt a winger. he is a playmaker, at its best

As you said he is a playmaker and can't play any other roles well enough. Now you have Isco to play his role and I think is better, so where does that leave Ozil?

by Valkyrja Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:43 am

Nedved wrote:
Cyborg wrote: he isnt a defender, he isnt a striker, he isnt a winger. he is a playmaker, at its best
As you said he is a playmaker and can't play any other roles well enough. Now you have Isco to play his role and I think is better, so where does that leave Ozil?

Isco isn't better than Ozil. He is better physically and a better dribbler. But Ozil is way more intelligent, has better passing and vision, is better without the ball.

by FalcaoPunch Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:47 am

sportsczy wrote:The point is that Bale needs the team to be built around him where he gets the ball extremely often and he has the freedom to do what he wants... That's what made him effective this past year. Prior to last year, you had Modric and Van Der Vaart who had the midfield and creative responsibility and Bale was a traditional winger. He was ok... nothing all that special.

CR7 had the team built around him from day 1 at Madrid and that's not going to change with Bale. We also have guys who handle the midfield. Bale is going to become a winger again.

There is no other option unless CR7 leaves.

And Bale wasn't even in the same class as Benz or Di Maria until this past year. Can he adapt from being a superstar to a role player like these guys? I highly doubt it.

You can't have a guy become a game winner when nobody other than CR7 gets more than 3 shots per game... just can't happen. Having the confidence to take shots and making them comes with competitive repetition.

I really don't see it at all. Would have preferred a true 9 like Falcao since he doesn't need to see the ball that often and can still stay sharp. Cavani would have been fantastic too because he actually defends like a beast and can compensate there for CR7... and score.

Anyhow, i think Flo is playing FIFA or FM here. The whole concept is video game-ish...

Sports

Agree 220% percent

by sportsczy Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:01 am

Uncanny wrote:
Except before last year bale was 20/21... He's upping his game as he's growing up, but you do make valid points especially playing in a team where all the midfielders are pretty much superstars.

Bale turned 24 this summer (born July 16, 1989). He was 23 last season. Guess how old Benz and Higuain are.... they're 25. They both turned 25 in December. Ozil is also 24. Di Maria is 25. Isco is 21.

Bale is not this young kid compared to the other stars on Madrid.

by LeVersacci Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:23 pm

Reading that he's arrived in Malaga's airport according to AS

by teamanarchy Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:47 pm

The way I see this going is Bale will come, for an astronomical sum... and he'll make all that money back. Madrid's game will be way more symetrical... Both wings will work in the same way... CR7 style, gassing and chucking in shots from all over and all the creativity will come from the middle with Ozil.

When Bale arrives, I honestly think La Decima is ours...

by FennecFox7 Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:24 am

ronaldo doesn't take hundreds of shots anymore.. come on

by CBarca Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:46 am

yeah he does lol

by halamadrid2 Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:12 am

nah he is more generous these days passing when three seasons ago he would have shot

by sportsczy Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:03 am

Ronaldo total shots:

2012-2013 = 357 shots

2011-2012 = 353 shots

2010-2011 = 365 shots

Source: http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/1193041476158/1202773887674/jugador/Jugador/Cristiano_Ronaldo.htm

by Uncanny Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:35 am

So the Madrid bale will play on the right then? Since he is left footed, will this position make him more/less devastating when running down the flank? Has he ever played on the right, no way cr7 is going to give up his favorite spot.

by sportsczy Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:07 am

The thing is, both the BBC and EC were saying that Benzema was only going to get sold if Madrid were to get Suarez. It doesn't seem likely that Madrid would buy Suarez just to put him on the bench... he might bite a teammate Laughing

This makes me think that Bales is going to play RW, although he's never played there before Laughing

This is Coentrao all over again ffs

by halamadrid2 Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:07 pm

they already have a spot lined up for him imo. Cacktrao was bought because Mou wanted two players per position and just used CM as an excuse to buy him. I don't think Carlo is particularly willing to experiment with him especially now into the season so they have identified a position he will play in

the fact Benz is running his butt off this season suggests he knows its his place he will take and him playing so far down maybe suggests he is willing to put himself in the frame to play RAM which would probably suit him honestly

we aren't going to abandon 4-2-2-2 now after practicing with it since preseason when carlo knew bale was coming anyways. he has clearly made plans on how he could use him. He is a Ronaldo so Carlo isnt exactly going to play him in a position where he will need to keep posession and create chances so thats LAM and RAM ou of the way. That leaves RF and LF for one which ronaldo occupies leaving benz as the only he can realistically replace barring a formation change which isnt going to happen now

by sportsczy Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:21 pm

With Bale and CR7 on the pitch, 4222 doesn't work since neither Bale nor CR7 is a CF. You count on the fullbacks for width in this formation. But since you have both Bale and CR7, it would be incredibly dumb to not use at least one of them for width.

Playing both CR7 and Bale inside would be insane actually Laughing

Carlo is not stupid.

Again, read what Benz' agent said. You don't say things like this unless you were told by the club: http://futbol.as.com/futbol/2013/08/25/primera/1377421154_082512.html

by Onyx Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:25 pm

It could work if Bale/Ronaldo rotated throughout the match to take the central striker spot, while the other roamed around.

by sportsczy Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:28 pm

Do you really think CR7 is going to compromise his play much if at at all? I don't believe it. He already had a poor game by his standards in the first game and, another one or two... he is going to demand to return to his normal positioning.

That's the issue with trying to get players to play out of position... even the great players.

by halamadrid2 Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:40 pm

Lets not act as if Benz plays like a CF lol. he plays more like a ram

Bale picked himself up from being a lb flop to one of the best attackers in premier league. I have no doubt he can adapt to become a great CF. As long as he makes runs into the box he is instantly going to be an improvement to benz who hardly does. on the other hand we will miss the connection benz used to have with ozil but we wont see whether this will work until we see it in action

Benzemas agent is stating nothing more than what the media are. why do you think they say dimaria has no place in this team when his position wont be in danger with the bale acquisition??? nobody other than the coaching team know what they have in plan we can only speculate/make educated guesses

Benz has been booed by the crowd he isn't going to get umpteen chances just cuz he is our only CF. They will look to Bale to replace him but dont know whether it will work yet because its a new project for Bale who has previously adapted himself to unfamiliar positions

by halamadrid2 Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:41 pm

ronaldo has a free role he will play wherever he likes. heat maps already show he plays like a cf anyways so he will have no problems swapping and changing with bale. I bet he is relieved he doesn't need to defend any longer

by Le Samourai Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:45 pm

Sports, I think the idea is to give both a relatively free role, but with key caveats. Mainly that both Bale and Ronaldo use each other as reference points to determine their movement and role within any specific attack.

Off the ball Ronaldo is a CF, and on it, he makes having a CF fairly useless (unless that CF can do a range of specific things, I think aerial ability being the most important).

Ideally they switch sides and both provide width, I have no doubt that would be better for the team structurally. Anything that tempers their ability to cut in and shoot would. But that requires a certain frame of mind that I don't think Ronaldo has....and he's the one who has to give the OK.

There is potential for a team with structural balance, the potential lies in the qualities of the players.

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