Has the Sweeper position died out?

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Has the Sweeper position died out? Empty Has the Sweeper position died out?

Post by redsnoopy Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:21 pm


The last time I heard of it is Ruud Gullit being sweeper for chelsea. But now never heard anymore. Has this position become extinct ?

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Post by S Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:23 pm

http://cdn.caughtoffside.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Bonucci-Dive.jpg

:coffee:
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Post by jibers Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:31 pm

True sweepers died out in the 80s thanks to the offside trap implemented by saachi's Milan. It seems fitting that the last true sweeper became the best cb of the modern era. Changes to the offside rule as well has rendered sweepers extinct and not in vogue anymore.

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Post by redsnoopy Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:42 pm

jibers wrote:True sweepers died out in the 80s thanks to the offside trap implemented by saachi's Milan. It seems fitting that the last true sweeper became the best cb of the modern era. Changes to the offside rule as well has rendered sweepers extinct and not in vogue anymore.


In other words, sweepers have become dinosaurs due to change in rules and defence tactics. Lucky the positions of playmaker and support striker still survives

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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:48 pm

Sweepers have not died out, yet only evolved into a varied role. Closest example is within a 3-5-2/3-4-2(1)-1(2) model.

Leonardo Bonnuci for Italia and Juventus with Chiellini and Barzagli behind him.

Danielle De Rossi, sometimes for Roma and during his few times with Italia has done it with great success for them.

Inigo Martinez when Montanier switched to a 3-5-2 in the absence of Gonzalez as it was arguably his best role.

Javi Martinez for Athletic Club Bielsa's 3-3-1-3 and 3-5-2 and performed within over 10-12 times that season.

Angelo Palombo for Sampdoria

Stuttgart's Serdar Tasci.

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Post by jibers Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:12 pm

Arquitescu wrote:Sweepers have not died out, yet only evolved into a varied role. Closest example is within a 3-5-2/3-4-2(1)-1(2) model.

Leonardo Bonnuci for Italia and Juventus with Chiellini and Barzagli behind him.

Danielle De Rossi, sometimes for Roma and during his few times with Italia has done it with great success for them.

Inigo Martinez when Montanier switched to a 3-5-2 in the absence of Gonzalez as it was arguably his best role.

Javi Martinez for Athletic Club Bielsa's 3-3-1-3 and 3-5-2 and performed within over 10-12 times that season.

Angelo Palombo for Sampdoria

Stuttgart's Serdar Tasci.


Arq I think he meant more conventional sweepers in the shape of Sammer, the Kaiser, Baresi, Scirea and Velibor Vasovic. If anything Bonnucci acted more as a reverse of Busquets. With Busquets dropping to form a back 3 and Bonucci stepping forward to intercept.
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Post by Grooverider Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:21 pm

Arquitescu wrote:Sweepers have not died out, yet only evolved into a varied role. Closest example is within a 3-5-2/3-4-2(1)-1(2) model.

Leonardo Bonnuci for Italia and Juventus with Chiellini and Barzagli behind him.

Danielle De Rossi, sometimes for Roma and during his few times with Italia has done it with great success for them.

Inigo Martinez when Montanier switched to a 3-5-2 in the absence of Gonzalez as it was arguably his best role.

Javi Martinez for Athletic Club Bielsa's 3-3-1-3 and 3-5-2 and performed within over 10-12 times that season.

Angelo Palombo for Sampdoria

Stuttgart's Serdar Tasci.


Actually thinking that these players were/are conventional sweepers   :facepalm:
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:22 pm

jibers wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:Sweepers have not died out, yet only evolved into a varied role. Closest example is within a 3-5-2/3-4-2(1)-1(2) model.

Leonardo Bonnuci for Italia and Juventus with Chiellini and Barzagli behind him.

Danielle De Rossi, sometimes for Roma and during his few times with Italia has done it with great success for them.

Inigo Martinez when Montanier switched to a 3-5-2 in the absence of Gonzalez as it was arguably his best role.

Javi Martinez for Athletic Club Bielsa's 3-3-1-3 and 3-5-2 and performed within over 10-12 times that season.

Angelo Palombo for Sampdoria

Stuttgart's Serdar Tasci.


Arq I think he meant more conventional sweepers in the shape of Sammer, the Kaiser, Baresi, Scirea and Velibor Vasovic. If anything Bonnucci acted more as a reverse of Busquets. With Busquets dropping to form a back 3 and Bonucci stepping forward to intercept.

Apologies. In that case they are as dead as JFK.

If we speak about Bonnuci, you will see him pivot on the space of Barza & Chiellini depending on the positional references of the CBs.

Spoiler:
asses completed by Leonardo Bonucci v Napoli, March 1 2013:

Agreed as a whole. Sw position has just been modernized and adapted to the new form of tactics.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:23 pm

LMFAO

No he never said Chiellini and Bar are sweepers

Montanier is a manager lmfao

Oh wow the fail in that post is disgustingly high.
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:24 pm

Grooverider wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:Sweepers have not died out, yet only evolved into a varied role. Closest example is within a 3-5-2/3-4-2(1)-1(2) model.

Leonardo Bonnuci for Italia and Juventus with Chiellini and Barzagli behind him.

Danielle De Rossi, sometimes for Roma and during his few times with Italia has done it with great success for them.

Inigo Martinez when Montanier switched to a 3-5-2 in the absence of Gonzalez as it was arguably his best role.

Javi Martinez for Athletic Club Bielsa's 3-3-1-3 and 3-5-2 and performed within over 10-12 times that season.

Angelo Palombo for Sampdoria

Stuttgart's Serdar Tasci.


Actually thinking that these players were/are conventional sweepers   :facepalm:

The fact that you highlighted 3 CBs and I manager who I did not refer to as Sweepers, and that you obviously haven't seen their positionals, tells me exactly what I need to know.

And COMPREHENSION please. Where did I refer to them as conventional sweepers?

Oh yes, its grooverider who spews more ignorance than a zealot. Laughing
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Post by jibers Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:25 pm

Tomwin Lannister wrote:LMFAO

No he never said Chiellini and Bar are sweepers

Montanier is a manager lmfao

Oh wow the fail in that post is disgustingly high.

what did you expect from trollrider?
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:26 pm

jibers wrote:
Tomwin Lannister wrote:LMFAO

No he never said Chiellini and Bar are sweepers

Montanier is a manager lmfao

Oh wow the fail in that post is disgustingly high.

what did you expect from trollrider?

Very little, but even then that post made me put me head in my hands and cry a little bit.
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Post by M99 Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:35 pm

Arquitescu wrote:
jibers wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:Sweepers have not died out, yet only evolved into a varied role. Closest example is within a 3-5-2/3-4-2(1)-1(2) model.

Leonardo Bonnuci for Italia and Juventus with Chiellini and Barzagli behind him.

Danielle De Rossi, sometimes for Roma and during his few times with Italia has done it with great success for them.

Inigo Martinez when Montanier switched to a 3-5-2 in the absence of Gonzalez as it was arguably his best role.

Javi Martinez for Athletic Club Bielsa's 3-3-1-3 and 3-5-2 and performed within over 10-12 times that season.

Angelo Palombo for Sampdoria

Stuttgart's Serdar Tasci.


Arq I think he meant more conventional sweepers in the shape of Sammer, the Kaiser, Baresi, Scirea and Velibor Vasovic. If anything Bonnucci acted more as a reverse of Busquets. With Busquets dropping to form a back 3 and Bonucci stepping forward to intercept.

Apologies. In that case they are as dead as JFK.

Disagree a bit with this. In my opinion, they are not totally dead. In the modern game, you can still see some CBs playing slightly behind the defence. These defenders are often the last man that the forward has to beat and tend to build up play from the back. Nesta is an example and recently I've seen Hummels and Varane do this. The death of the SW position is contribution credited to Sacchi and his offside trap but I think Nils Liedholm also deserves some, he is among the first and most successful to employ, for want of better word, sweeper in front of the defence instead of behind with Agostino Di Bartolomei and Falcao on Roma. It was effective, Roma won Scudetto and went on the lose the European Cup final on penalties. Nowadays, as Arq said sweepers have evolved. Duties of the sweeper are done by defenders, midfielders and even goalkeepers (sweeper keeper). Great sweepers like Beckenbauer, Scirea, Picchi, Sammer, Blason would all have played in a different positions if they played today but have similar duties on the pitch, much like Baresi.
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Post by Valkyrja Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:38 pm

Jibers, isn't Alonso a modern version of the Sweeper ?
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:41 pm

Arquitescu wrote:
Apologies. In that case they are as dead as JFK.

Joe f*cking Kinnear is dead?!
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Post by Arquitecto Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:08 pm

M99 wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:
jibers wrote:

Arq I think he meant more conventional sweepers in the shape of Sammer, the Kaiser, Baresi, Scirea and Velibor Vasovic. If anything Bonnucci acted more as a reverse of Busquets. With Busquets dropping to form a back 3 and Bonucci stepping forward to intercept.

Apologies. In that case they are as dead as JFK.

Disagree a bit with this. In my opinion, they are not totally dead. In the modern game, you can still see some CBs playing slightly behind the defence. These defenders are often the last man that the forward has to beat and tend to build up play from the back. Nesta is an example and recently I've seen Hummels and Varane do this. The death of the SW position is contribution credited to Sacchi and his offside trap but I think Nils Liedholm also deserves some, he is among the first and most successful to employ, for want of better word, sweeper in front of the defence instead of behind with Agostino Di Bartolomei and Falcao on Roma. It was effective, Roma won Scudetto and went on the lose the European Cup final on penalties. Nowadays, as Arq said sweepers have evolved. Duties of the sweeper are done by defenders, midfielders and even goalkeepers (sweeper keeper). Great sweepers like Beckenbauer, Scirea, Picchi, Sammer, Blason would all have played in a different positions if they played today but have similar duties on the pitch, much like Baresi.

I should have explained my point better. M99, what I meant was the Sweeper who possessed all the same traits in unison as the conventional ones did. As you wonderfully elucidate, Sweepers haven't died, yet have evolved and brought back courtesy of Calcio.

Great Leader Brucenuce wrote:Joe f*cking Kinnear is dead?!

:facepalm: Sorry I meant Brain-dead.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:19 pm

Well he's always been that Laughing
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Post by Kick Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:00 am

Yes, they are never used anymore. As I use to play there, I hope, one day they will make a return.
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Post by Red Alert Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:55 am

jibers wrote:True sweepers died out in the 80s thanks to the offside trap implemented by saachi's Milan. It seems fitting that the last true sweeper became the best cb of the modern era. Changes to the offside rule as well has rendered sweepers extinct and not in vogue anymore.


I could be wrong as I didn't see much of Hierro in his prime, but wasn't he a sweeper? He could obviously play as a defensive midfielder and he was a beast a of defender, but I seem to remember him as a sweeper.
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Post by silver Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:10 am

Sorry for my ignorance as I wasn't alive during the 80s, but what were the benefits of having a sweeper, and how did the offside trap destroy the sweeper role?
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Post by jibers Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:55 am

M99 wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:
jibers wrote:

Arq I think he meant more conventional sweepers in the shape of Sammer, the Kaiser, Baresi, Scirea and Velibor Vasovic. If anything Bonnucci acted more as a reverse of Busquets. With Busquets dropping to form a back 3 and Bonucci stepping forward to intercept.

Apologies. In that case they are as dead as JFK.

Disagree a bit with this. In my opinion, they are not totally dead. In the modern game, you can still see some CBs playing slightly behind the defence. These defenders are often the last man that the forward has to beat and tend to build up play from the back. Nesta is an example and recently I've seen Hummels and Varane do this. The death of the SW position is contribution credited to Sacchi and his offside trap but I think Nils Liedholm also deserves some, he is among the first and most successful to employ, for want of better word, sweeper in front of the defence instead of behind with Agostino Di Bartolomei and Falcao on Roma. It was effective, Roma won Scudetto and went on the lose the European Cup final on penalties. Nowadays, as Arq said sweepers have evolved. Duties of the sweeper are done by defenders, midfielders and even goalkeepers (sweeper keeper). Great sweepers like Beckenbauer, Scirea, Picchi, Sammer, Blason would all have played in a different positions if they played today but have similar duties on the pitch, much like Baresi.

No they didn't. You are making things seem more complicated than they are. The sweeper is dead. Other people might incorporate their duties into their own functions on the pitch but that position of sitting behind a defensive line be it a back 3 or a back 4 is gone. Sweeper keepers sort of replaced them but again they are done. Playing that now in modern football would be suicide.

Valkyrja wrote:Jibers, isn't Alonso a modern version of the Sweeper ?

No. Alonso is a playmaker that stays deep, similar to Pirlo. That position, although not as defined as it is today because of the sudden obsession of utilizing a ball distributor, has been in football for a long time.

silver wrote:Sorry for my ignorance as I wasn't alive during the 80s, but what were the benefits of having a sweeper, and how did the offside trap destroy the sweeper role?

As in the name, they stayed behind the defensive line to sweep up through balls and take on any striker that breaks through the defensive line. When Saachi introduced his offside trap, it invoved every single defender stepping up to catch the opposition strikers offside. You obviously can't do that if one sweeper is behind in the defensive line obviously it won't work, you can see it at work in the video below

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Post by M99 Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:04 am

I agree that the position is dead. It would be tactical suicide in the modern game but their roles are still here in terms of sweeper keeper, covering centre backs and some CDM/CM. Which brings me to another interesting question. Do you see any current positions in football dying out in the future like the SW?
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Post by jibers Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:23 am

M99 wrote:I agree that the position is dead. It would be tactical suicide in the modern game but their roles are still here in terms of sweeper keeper, covering centre backs and some CDM/CM. Which brings me to another interesting question. Do you see any current positions in football dying out in the future like the SW?

Unless they change some rule significantly, no.
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