Compared to Vilanova he's been an upgrade in every level but then again a coach with 3rd division experience does not exactly raise the bar that high.

That is not to say Martino's been fantastic. He needs time. His squad has certain flaws and he needs to be active in the transfer window next year.

We are scoring less than last season with Neymar in the squad, so no, he isn't an upgrade in everything. Only defensively (not in set pieces) and at the cost of our cruyffist style.

Tito sacrificed our defence for offense, Tata is more balanced, we are still playing the same as before averaging high possession.

free_cat wrote:We are scoring less than last season with Neymar in the squad, so no, he  isn't an upgrade in everything. Only defensively (not in set pieces) and at the cost of our cruyffist style.

That's probably because Messi has not been as fit though. I don't actually think our defense is that improved either, Valdes is just having a great moment in his career and we've been pretty lucky. One thing we do much better than last season is not conceding as many corners, which is a huge help. But everything else I don't see a much better defensive unit.

As for Tata I see a lot of positives. But here are a few things that annoy the hell out of me:
- No trust in the youth. Regardless of whether Alexis or Pique/Masche are having a horrid game Tata will only bring Tello and Bartra on if forced to by injuries. Likewise Sergi Roberto looked like he would have an amazing season and has seen very few minutes. Convinced JDS to stay, did not play, and got himself injured.
- Choosing to play more counter-attacking against teams we should dominate with possession instead. I'm in favor of counter attacks against park the buses team. But against teams that like to be in possession, we should beat them at that game where we are best rather than take a pragmatic approach.
- The pressing. When he arrived all the headlines were about the pressing,and while some of it is back, it is not as intense as it should be by November. Let's hope this is something that can still increase but I don't see the significant improvement in this regard that I hoped to see.

Anyways that's my mini-rant. I still think the positives are larger than the negatives, but he is by no means perfect and still has a lot of work left to do.

I dont think we have been a whole lot better defensively, but I there have been less glaring individual errors.

Mascherano, Valdes, Alba, Pique and an early injured Dani Alves made more errors than they have so far. Bartra coming in has helped, Alba not being in might have helped, Valdes having great form and Dani Alves being fully fit has helped. None of this really down to Tata, at least not on a tactically level.

Wasn't Tito doing similarly at this stage last year?

It's hard to say how good Tata has been. I more or less would agree that Barca have been hovering around the status quo that has been, although perhaps with some slight improvement. Dips in form from Iniesta and Messi have been counteracted by form of Neymar and Alexis, so it's hard to tell what the team is like when we're alive and kicking. Meanwhile, I would agree with the assessment that the defense really hasn't been that much better, but Valdes has been remarkable. Dani's statements above also stand agreeable.

Either way, that's my assessment so far. It lacks substance because judging a coach of a top club like Barca half way through the season often lacks substance unless they do drastically well (Guardiola, 08-09) or terribly (many cases in history).

We have yet to face our biggest challenges yet. That is when we can start to properly judge.

Overall I've been happy with him, but there is a lot of improvement to go. Hopefully that comes with more time.

Tactically the defense has improved dramatically in my eyes. Compare last season's Camp Nou Liga Clasico where Real Madrid had 10 shots inside the box to this season when they had 3 and an in-form Ronaldo had only 1 the entire game (which was down to an individual mistake by Iniesta) whereas last season he alone got more shots than the entire Barca team at some stage. Unter Tito we did run far more into counterattacks and allowed 1 on 1 duels with the centerbacks or Valdes. No way we are this open at the back anymore. Valdes' heroics in the first few games I attribute to the team still playing in Tito mode / not having applied Tata tactics yet at that stage (there was a clear change after the Sevilla game how the fullbacks are positioned after Valdes complained that Busquets is always alone defending) but he did have those even last season (1 on 1 save against Granada just before Xavi's last minute wonder goal winner).

Tito didn't do similarly at this stage at all. We struggled a lot and had to revert to 3-4-3 gung-ho approach lots of times like against Osasuna or Spartak to turn the result around. Spartak took the lead against us in Camp Nou TWICE. We were leading 3-0 to relegated Mallorca and allowed them back in the game by conceding 2 goals. Relegated Deportivo scored 4 goals on us. That crazy Sevilla game when they were leading 2-0 and we had to win in the last minute. The only source for goals was Messi (there was a point before Xmas last season where he had 10 consecutive braces or something crazy like that). Doing this well under Tata so far with an injured / half fit Messi for 1/3 of the season is an extra plus. A fit Messi gives you extra + 2 goals per game easily.

Last season I remember our very first game of the season against Real Sociedad. We won 5-1 but it was a strangely open game when Sociedad looked like they could have scored 3 as well. It was so strange seeing Barca like that that I memorized that particular game.

This Madrid is not the same Madrid of last season though, so that direct comparison dont work.

That Madrid were applying high pressure and winning the ball early, the Marid we faced did not and make it significantly easier to move the ball into the midfield.

Thats not say your wrong, just its a bit early and I dont think the Madrid game is the best example.

Agreed with Franchise. I don't want to take anything away from the clasico win, but playing 3 wingers upfront and playing Ramos in middle was a RM inviting death to themselves, unfortunately the game was quite close despite us bottling a few chances, Neymar/Messi one on ones, as well as Alves after nutmegging Ronaldo.

I agree with Barrilete, we've actually been similar in defence but valdes has been e diference. He was meh last season while he has saved our ass repeatedly this one. We've been very lucky not to conceed in many cases. Our defence has only really looked better when Bartra had played.

Winter is Coming wrote:Agreed with Franchise. I don't want to take anything away from the clasico win, but playing 3 wingers upfront and playing Ramos in middle was a RM inviting death to themselves, unfortunately the game was quite close despite us bottling a few chances, Neymar/Messi one on ones, as well as Alves after nutmegging Ronaldo.

They had FAR worse lineups last season where Mourinho suddenly played Carvalho centerback, Essien rightback, Arbeloa leftback and Callejon upfront. And we still didn't win. We didn't even win when Real left Ronaldo, Özil, Khedira and Alonso on the bench - half their starting lineup. Bale playing false 9 isn't that unnatural for him anyway. He played in the middle for Spurs all the time last season.

You don't go from the worst defensive record since Gaspart era to best defensive record of all CL teams currently just because Valdes is playing to his usual 2010 standards again. I also doubt our luck factor has exponentially risen this season. If you find me situations this season where it could have been 1 goal conceded instead of 0, I will find you situations last season where it could have been 3 goals instead of 2.

futbol wrote:
They had FAR worse lineups last season where Mourinho suddenly played Carvalho centerback, Essien rightback, Arbeloa leftback and Callejon upfront. And we still didn't win. We didn't even win when Real left Ronaldo, Özil, Khedira and Alonso on the bench - half their starting lineup. Bale playing false 9 isn't that unnatural for him anyway. He played in the middle for Spurs all the time last season.

Don't forget Morata on wings

we've been lucky in defense I agree. but that goes also for teams we've played against this season. all in all i think the guy deserve some credit. we can't attribute everything to luck. immagine this team, with messi sidelined for so long, last year.... disaster

We have always been "lucky". One Bendtner toepoke away from getting knocked out by 10 men Arsenal. A Drenthe 1 on 1 away from possibly losing the first Clasico in the Pep era. A Higuain 1 on 1 miss 30 seconds into the game, a disallowed Ramos goal and an Özil strike to the bar away from bottling a 2-1 away lead in the Copa del Rey in Camp Nou. Ronaldo missing half a dozen chances and going ultimate selfish mode in the first 10 minutes of the CL final in 2009 could have made it a completely different game.

You can dissect every game, bar the 5-0 Clasico and 3-1 CL final which were near to perfection. People just look at this team in a different way now. After the Bayern games last season every single move is under scrutiny. "OMG, Valdes had to stretch himself twice in a game in which we created 10+ clear cut chances ourselves, we're shit, Bayern gun rape us!" That's the Culé mentality as of 2013 post May. And it won't change until this teams wins the CL again. Not even if they manage a 105 point season. Because "La Liga isn't a real competition, only Bayern and Real Madrid count."

danyjr wrote:

futbol wrote:
They had FAR worse lineups last season where Mourinho suddenly played Carvalho centerback, Essien rightback, Arbeloa leftback and Callejon upfront. And we still didn't win. We didn't even win when Real left Ronaldo, Özil, Khedira and Alonso on the bench - half their starting lineup. Bale playing false 9 isn't that unnatural for him anyway. He played in the middle for Spurs all the time last season.

Don't forget Morata on wings

Hey, he managed an assist. DAT Pito team. We're still recovering from the shambles he left behind.

Tito was actually very good until he got sick. I really liked how he was braking the ptb (park the buss) teams with his 3313. After he got sick, it took a bad toll on our team. Not to mention the repeated loss of Abidal who gave solidity to our back, and our main strikers (Pedro, Villa and Alexis) having one of their worst seasons!

So all in all, we cannot blame Tito for what happen, it was just fate for him to get sick when the team needed him the most. When Pep left, the team has won it all, they really needed a stable manager who can motivate them. Instead, they were demotivated even more by his sickness. It was a series of bad luck events.

I don't understand how you guys think we are somehow lucky in the defense department..
lucky is having a functional keeper? compared to last year where Valdes would let anything in? even in the stupidest angels?
Lucky is having a defender that.. dun dun dun.. defends?!

I am not crediting Tata for all of this but he sure as hell is doing something right to get our keeper and backline to do something.

I think all people are trying to say is, the defence/we/whatever are lucky that Valdes is having a season for the ages so far, he has done better than expectations....because is he had a "normal" season or worse..one like last season...our goal conceded stats wouldnt be much to brag about.

I think thats all people mean by luck. Could be wrong, IDK.

I'm not hating on Valdes, he's in very good form, much better than last year but I think his contribution has been a bit overstated either because this is his last season or because we've got used to it that he let in every shot in the past 2 seasons so that it looks unreal now that he actually makes saves. I'm just rewatching the Betis game (am at 70 minutes right now) and he made 2 saves. 1 difficult one (the header) which he must not save and 1 where the angle was tight and he just made it tighter by coming out, something I expect most top keepers to make, nothing out of the ordinary really. And 1 of those chances only happened because the team somehow slowed down during defensive transition with Messi lying on the floor, gambling that the ref would blow the whistle. That's literally everything Real Betis created at home up until the 70th minute and if you look at Pep's statistic in this stadium, he conceded 2, 3 and 2 goals in 3 games and never won in our supposed peak years. And this is with Montoya at leftback, with Bartra who is still a rookie (he got beaten for both of the afromentioned chances, although he was superb for the rest of the game) and with an unmatchfit Puyol. Yet you'd think we're only surviving because Valdes making 5 top saves week in week out, reading some opinions (not just here).

Yeah I think some fans overreact when it comes to the defence but also ignore the high number of chances Barça have been creating (and not been finishing).

For me personally, Martino has been doing something that some fans may not like but I think it is vital for the evolution of the team. Sure it looks messy at times, sure it looks uncharacteristic and against the so called philosophy. But overall I think the random surprise factor and having more ways to attack an opponent has paid off well. It has put the opposition out of their comfort zone.

Previously against Betis, Verdiblancos would press high up with Barcelona making risky passes in order to get out of their defensive third. Once they were out of the zone, they would slow down as opposed to sending men forward. They would play compact to create triangles and diamonds around the pitch, allowing Betis to track back and clog up the middle. That would put Barça back to square one as opposed to giving them an advantage.

Martino, for me, exposed Betis. Their high defensive line which would choke Barcelona's space previously suddenly became their Achilles heel, looking suicidal at times the many one on one chances Barcelona had last night.

Alright but this Betis is bottom of the table. Pep's teams might not have won, but the opponant is clearly not the same level for whatever reason because I dont recall us ever facing Betis and they have been bottom of the table. At any point.

All Betis had was physical play, which got rewarded by bad refing, but they didnt create dangerous situations.

Plus on Valdes, I think we all knows its very difficult not doing anything for long periods and then being called upon to produce seemingly out of nowhere. Iker has struggled with that and seems like he always will.

Again, I think most people are comparing Tito's team last year vs Tata's this. And the biggest difference in the defensive stats is more the difference between Valdes this season compared to last, than better actual defending. Not to saying the defending hasnt been better, it has, much less individual mistakes, but Valdes is the bigger difference I think.

The Franchise wrote:Alright but this Betis is bottom of the table. Pep's teams might not have won, but the opponant is clearly not the same level for whatever reason because I dont recall us ever facing Betis and they have been bottom of the table. At any point.

Well, they were in second division first time Guardiola met them (in Copa and if I recall correctly) Messi saved the day with an individual effort). Also from watching their performance last night, I don't think Betis will finish bottom. They are much better than that (then again I won't be unhappy if they get relegated. Don't like their underdog tactics).

Xavi Hernandez has reflected on how he sees similarities in style between Barcelona Coach Tata Martino and former Spain boss Luis Aragones.

The midfielder worked for four years under Aragones at international level, culminating in the 2008 European Championship win and sees his current Barca Coach as of a similar type.

“I like his style of football, he reminds me of Luis Aragones,” considered Xavi to BeInSport this week.

“He is very football-focused, talks to you face-to-face. He has understood the system and style of play of Barcelona.

“He consults a lot with the players of Barcelona who have been here for a long tie. He is very close to the players and is a winner.

“He has had success in Argentina and is well respected there. This helps him a lot at Barca.”

Some Tiki-Taka moments this season under Tata.

Gerardo Martino says he is more interested in matching Pep Guardiola's trophy haul at Barcelona than the Spaniard's record of unbeaten games.

The Blaugrana will equal a club-record run of 21 games without defeat should they secure a positive result against Ajax in Tuesday's Champions League clash in Amsterdam.

However, as far as Martino is concerned, the only thing that matters is silverware.

"I would prefer to equal the mark of six trophies with Barcelona [in 2009]. The [unbeaten] record doesn't mean anything," the Argentine coach told a press conference on Monda.

"It's not easy for me to make a comparison because I only saw the old Barca on TV. We must keep winning as we have done so far and continue the excellence this club has had."

Midfielder Xavi is in line to make his return to action on Tuesday but Martino admitted he is eager to get all his top players fit again, including Lionel Messi.

"For us to continue at a high level of beauty we need everyone, not only Xavi. We need Jordi [Alba], Messi, everyone," the former Newell's Old Boys boss confessed.

"We lost the best player in the world with Leo's injury, which always makes things difficult. But with the richness of the Barcelona squad and the players who are able to play [on Tuesday], we're in a position to win."

Martino went on to pay tribute to Ajax, praising the impact of Dutch football on the history of Barcelona.

"I have always considered Ajax as a great team who know what they need to do on the pitch," he enthused.

"They are technically skilled and they know how to play. I know that we are going to face a difficult opponent and I am convinced that they can come second in the group.

"When I walk through the halls I see the photos of the people who are responsible for the style of Barcelona. Many Dutch players, and also Ajax players, have certainly been very important for the style of Barcelona.

"If I have learned anything from my coaches, it's that the next game is the most important. The next game is the one that gives you confidence or gets you into trouble.

"Our intention is to win, no matter what match Barcelona plays in, if it is at home, away, against whatever opponent, Barcelona always plays to win. We want to play beautiful football; we are committed to that.

"We do not want just to win, but we will continue work to win every match with beautiful football."

Disappointed he didn't let more B team players play in the cup match..
Cesc still in false 9