So how will Bayern's 4-1-4-1 look?

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So how will Bayern's 4-1-4-1 look? Empty So how will Bayern's 4-1-4-1 look?

Post by barca 2011 Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:12 am

It's quite clear now that Pep Guardiola's Bayern Munich is looking to pursue a 4-1-4-1 formation which will give the Bavarian team a bit of a different look, and even Ribery has described the supposed new setup as "weird". This team has a stacked midfield as it is and on top of landing Mario Gotze they seem to be after even more midfield reinforcements with Pep attempting to secure Thiago Alcantara as well.

It seems the question then is, with such a lineup, will there be an out-and-out striker upfront or will Pep utilize someone who can play the false role, such as Gotze himself, Muller or even Kroos? Pep is without a doubt one of the most interesting strategists around so it's a very interesting topic to see how he might go about this new formation at his new club with such a wealth at midfield. The Thiago transfer notwithstanding, let's take a look at how he might direct this team and how dangerous they can look.

Given last season's starters, a very likely XI for the new formation might be:

--------------Neuer-------------
Lahm---Boateng---Dante---Alaba
--------------Javi------------
Robben--Schweini--Kroos--Ribery
--------------Gotze------------

This lineup ignores the very effective Mandzukic who had a great season, but upfront would not be an unfamiliar position to Gotze. Of course, there has also been talk of moving Javi to a more defensive role and Pep has had much success at Barca by moving defensive midfielders to a more defensive role in the past. Javi has also shown that he can more than hold his own in such a role and this move would of course allow more freedom in the already stacked midfield by opening up a spot in the middle.

Based on starters and with Javi at the back we may something along the likes of:

--------------Neuer-------------
Lahm---Javi. M---Dante---Alaba
-------------Gustavo------------
Robben--Schweini--Gotze--Ribery
--------------Muller-------------

So those are two likely and interesting potential lineups we may see under pep who already seems content with moving past the false 9 option which he helped popularize in today's game. As a true thinker in football it's a given he will be successful. But given the wealth at his disposal it's just not clear how he will achieve it. Of course we cannot forget Mandzukic and I doubt Pep will. So, let's discuss!


Last edited by barca 2011 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by barca 2011 Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:19 am

And with Bayern coming off of a very impressive treble I think it's safe to say that they will be the most interesting team to watch next season, both for Pep and his new gameplan, and to see how much they can improve on top of such a season. The potential is through the roof.
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Post by jibers Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:23 am

Could the mods move this to the Pep watch thread?
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Post by barca 2011 Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:25 am

jibers wrote:Could the mods move this to the Pep watch thread?
I guess, though this is more to do with Bayern and Pep's supposed new lineup together. But whatevs.
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:39 pm

4-1-4-1 will get ripped to shreds by Dortmund, maybe even Schalke, so hard.

I know it looks tasty, you get to put all the players with the high FIFA-ratings in there at once.

By moving Javi back to CB you can anchor your mid with Schweinsteiger and throw on all your bestestest players. You can even play one of the potential false 9s up front, so you get even more attacking power.

Just like this:
Lahm - Martinez - Dante - Alaba
-------- Schweinsteiger
Robben - Müller - Kroos --- Ribéry
------------ Götze

And this still leaves Shaqiri (and Thiago?) benched. As well as Mandzukic.

I'd stick with the double pivot though. Pep or no Pep, it's been proven to be the more flexible approach. And Bayern had one thing over Barca last season that Pep shouldn't underestimate: a plan B.

I know the formation I posted above crams the best players Bayern has on the pitch all at once, but TBH I'd rather drop one of those midfield gods, get Boateng/Badstuber back in there, and play a Martinez/Piggy pivot, the pivot that bossed all of Europe.

Yes, this leaves one of Götze/Kroos/Robben/Müller on the bench, maybe even two if Mandzukic is played as a 9, but I just think it's the more durable formation. They'll rotate heavily anyway, being in 3 competitions (that count), and all.
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Post by rwo power Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:51 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:4-1-4-1 will get ripped to shreds by Dortmund, maybe even Schalke, so hard.
I'd really be looking forward to that banana

BTW, Schalke seem to be working on a really tasty young team right now! Okay, their last test match didn't look so well, but they need some time to gel still.
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Post by fatman123 Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:03 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:Just like this:
Lahm - Martinez - Dante - Alaba
-------- Schweinsteiger
Robben - Müller - Kroos --- Ribéry
------------ Götze

Rather then a 4-1-4-1, why not use the same players in a 4-3-3 which would be more balanced and you could still use Gotze as a false 9

Lahm - Martinez - Dante - Alaba
Muller-Schweinsteiger-Kroos
Robben-Götze-Ribéry
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:05 pm

Would certainly be better, though I don't really think it's that great a move to play Müller behind Robben - he's really too much of a forward for that imho. Plus this will mean that Kroos will push inward constantly, since he's a bit slow for the wing, this will interfere with Schweinsteigers runs, who will then be forced to drop deeper - and you're playing 4-1-4-1 again.
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Post by VivaStPauli Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:09 pm

But instead of bickering, let me propose how I'd line up, assuming everybody is not injured, and in a good run of form:

------------ Neuer
Lahm --- Dante --- Badstuber -- Alaba
----- Martinez --- Schweinsteiger
Müller ------- Kroos --------- Ribéry
------------- Götze

I'm not a huge Mandzukic fan, though that might be bias, I haven't overanalyzed my feelings on the topic, but this gives Götze a free role up front, which might just bring out the best in him. Kroos is, all considered, Bayerns most proven and talented playmaker, his shots from distance are great, which means he needs to be covered, in turn meaning more space for Götze. Müller exploits space really well too, and is more versatile, and more hard working, than Robben. Sure, Robbens speed and dribblings are nice, but you can get those from Ribéry and Götze, I'd rather have someone as effective as Müller in the team.

Ribéry is not up for discussion. I prefer a double pivot over anything else, and Schweinsteiger and Martinez have given zero reason to not start there. Dante is a must as well, just like Alaba and Lahm, and Badstuber is an excellent distributer and has great positioning, he has only been found out if his midfield let him down. Boateng can play as well, it's not that important. They won't be tested that much.
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Post by barca 2011 Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:34 pm

fatman123 wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:Just like this:
Lahm - Martinez - Dante - Alaba
-------- Schweinsteiger
Robben - Müller - Kroos --- Ribéry
------------ Götze

Rather then a 4-1-4-1, why not use  the same players in a 4-3-3 which would be more balanced and you could still use Gotze as a false 9

Lahm - Martinez - Dante - Alaba
Muller-Schweinsteiger-Kroos
Robben-Götze-Ribéry
It's funny, and I was about to point that out as well: If you look at the 4-1-4-1 here on paper it looks just like the 4-3-3 with the wingers a bit further behind. I think it will be similar.
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Post by Gil Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:39 pm

It'll be

Lahm Javi Dante Alaba
Schweinsteiger Kroos
Muller/Robben Gotze Ribery
Mandzukic

Why the debate?
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Post by barca 2011 Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:42 pm

Gil wrote:It'll be

Lahm Javi Dante Alaba
Schweinsteiger Kroos
Muller/Robben Gotze Ribery
Mandzukic

Why the debate?
I agree, that would be best but the "debate" is up because people from Bayern have said that that will be the new lineup. THEY said it.
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Post by LeBéninois Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:40 pm

Gil wrote:It'll be

Lahm Javi Dante Alaba
Schweinsteiger Kroos
Muller/Robben Gotze Ribery
Mandzukic

Why the debate?

That'll be the best to make most of the guy happy but Kroos is better as AM , Javi as DM : Facts
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:54 pm

I disagree with the entire founding principle of this thread. What, exactly, suggests Pep will use a 4-1-4-1? A 4-3-3 is far more likely with the same array of players. Also moal has convinced me and I now doubt whether Javi will even play midfield. Come to think of it, has he ever played as lone DM before?
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Post by barca 2011 Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:41 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I disagree with the entire founding principle of this thread. What, exactly, suggests Pep will use a 4-1-4-1? A 4-3-3 is far more likely with the same array of players. Also moal has convinced me and I now doubt whether Javi will even play midfield. Come to think of it, has he ever played as lone DM before?
http://www.goal.com/en/news/15/germany/2013/07/11/4110888/guardiolas-system-is-weird-ribery
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Post by Onyx Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:06 am

I think the reason why it's a 4-1-4-1 and not a 4-3-3 is because Robben/Ribery aren't really goalscorers. 4-3-3 wingers have to kinda be goalscorers. Like Pedro, Villa, Henry etc.

Ribery and Robben are both 4-2-3-1 type players.

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Post by CBarca Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:28 am

Just because Ribery talked about the 4-1-4-1 doesn't mean that's what Pep will use. I'm sure Pep has been experimenting with a variety of formations. He could have just been talking about the 4-1-4-1 being weird since he hasn't played with it before (?) even though they might use 4-3-3 mainly or something.

In fact, right in the article it says
30-year-old says the Spaniard is trying out new systems.

I wouldn't take this as fact, anyway.
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Post by juventus101 Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:53 am

Itll probably look like this:

--Neuer--
--Lahm-- --Martinez-- --Dante-- --Alaba--
--Schweinsteiger--
--Robben-- --Gotze-- --Kroos-- --Ribery--
--Muller--
}

They're definitely better off with the 4-2-3-1. Don't know why Pep is changing it either, don't fix what's not broken. This is simple way too attacking. When teams park the bus or even just defend deep, its gonna leave Dante at the back all by himself so much of the time.
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Post by Gil Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:46 am

I hate people who overthink things. Pep won't change much, like any great coach he'll adapt to the players he's been given rather than it being the other way 'round.

Bundesliga is a joke so he'll be able to experiment with different tactical setups and offensive schemes for flexibility and get away with it but in the CL he'll roll out with the obvious 4231 formation with the usual starters and 1/2 positions depending on form or the opponent.

Muller won't play as a striker. Stop it, he doesn't have the ability.

Mandzukic was one of the biggest factors for their success last season, he'll be first choice, his ability to hold the ball up, aerial gifts, incredible stamina and workrate is crucial.

Yohan Modric wrote:I think the reason why it's a 4-1-4-1 and not a 4-3-3 is because Robben/Ribery aren't really goalscorers. 4-3-3 wingers have to kinda be goalscorers. Like Pedro, Villa, Henry etc.

Ribery and Robben are both 4-2-3-1 type players.
p

What are you on about now?

Since when is Robben not a goalscorer?
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Post by ioilersrock448 Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:41 pm

4-1-4-1 would be the death of bayern but if it is to be used it should look like:

--------------------------------Neuer---------------------------
--Lahm-----------Boateng-------------Dante---------Alaba--
-------------------------------Martinez------------------------
---Mueller-------Schweinsteiger----Kroos--------Ribery----
----------------------------Goetze-----------------------------

It would all come down to how well Schweinsteiger and goetze would adapt to the new positions. I don't think that you can leave Piggy be on his own in defensive midfield since he has movbed there, he has always needed a destructor such as van Bommel, Gustavo or Martinez so that he can influence the game in more advanced areas.

the top teams would tear the formation apart including Schalke and Dortmund but it would work against smaller teams. I'm not a fan of it though, should just keep the 4-2-3-1.
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Post by urbaNRoots Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:58 pm

Isn't a 4-1-4-1 basically a 4-3-3?

Neuer
Lahm - Boateng - Dante - Alaba
Martinez
Schweinsteiger - Kroos
Müller - G*tze - Ribery

What's the difference if there's any?
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:15 pm

The inside forwards would play more like wingers under this system, which doesn't seem to fit the players.
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Post by Ganso Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:54 pm

so i was wrong, pep is back with his crazy lineups.At least he is using a CF

4-1-4-1 (4-3-3 ffs)
Neuer; Rafinha, Kirchhoff, Boateng, Lahm; Kroos, Alaba; Shaqiri, Müller, Ribéry; Pizarro.
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Post by RealGunner Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:23 pm

Weren't Bayern signing Sebastian Rode as well?
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Post by urbaNRoots Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:45 pm

^ 2014/15

It's not confirmed yet though, he might join another team. He'll be a free agent.
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