Messi needs Barca more than...

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Post by Guiltybystander Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:48 am

english_jewel wrote:
shinigami99 wrote:
english_jewel wrote:messi is over-rated

best player ever yet cant do anything with good "normal" players (aka the ones that are not xavi and iniesta)

as i said before if messi is going to be ONE of the greatest footballers ever than he has to win the wc with argentina, its as simple as that

you cant just perform for an already world class side and not do anything for country, thats his only way of proving that he just doesnt benefit from the barca side

which he hasnt done SO FAR (the so far is very important)
Cryuff says hello........never won world cup but was one of the greatest footballers

He isn't compared to Maradona and Pele though. People have already put Messi in the same breath as them as there's no doubt those two are the best 2 players ever.

Hahahaha, are you serious? Cruyff not in the list of Maradona and Pele?
And why is that so, then?

No doubt even?

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Post by Khaled Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:51 am

english_jewel wrote:
Khaledbarca wrote:
St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:
Khaledbarca wrote:I would like to see what wil player like Ronaldo or Pele do when played as playmakers (out of position) for Brazil OR player like Zidane as a stricker LMAO!!

ffffssss just play a playmaker behind him "PASTORE".. Messi plays CF or Wing & Argentina will win!!

is someone forcing him to play there khaled? when he does it for barca and succeeds, he is better than maradona, but when it comes to the NT, he is played out of position.

too much double standards

1- he is playing behind 3 forwards
2- @ Barca there is 2 playmakers behind him this is why he can play false 9 & it works..
3- @ Argetina he don't have a single playmaker behind him... PLUS no one in midfield can pass.. Banega is flopping ever match.. Cambiasso + Masch is not working!! no one can pass!!

Although he created today 3 dangerous chances..especially the through pass for lavezzi that put him 1 vs 1.. but like always lavezzi waited the chnace.. same senario in 2nd half Messi puts Aguero 1 vs 1 facing the GK.. & aguero fails to control...

add to this that NO one created for messi a single chance.. Banega sucked BIG TIME.. they need PASTORE ( @ least he should take a chance) he is argentina's last chance!!

IMO Messi should play on RW for Argentina.. this is where he will most succeed! Not 50 meters away from teh goal!!

So he needs not one but two playmakers to be one of the best???

This is the reason why he can play as a false 9 @ Barca.. Midfielder can pass not like @ Argentina.. this is why he should NOT ever play false 9 or playmaker @ aregntina..

RW!!

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Post by andiii Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:08 am

i don't agree. because if messi went to madrid i think madrid would be favourites to win the title

you could possibly say messi needs to be in a top 5 team more than a top 5 team needs him though
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Post by kiranr Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:14 am

The players are not playing around Messi. Everyone can see that. He is not able to pull off his pet 1-2's with his team mates that he does with Villa or Pedro or Iniesta in Barcelona.

The link up between players in Argentina is horrible IMO.
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Post by cyberman Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:49 am

How many teams play the one twos like Barca?
So if he left hed suffer then.
If he cant link with Tevez, Aguero, Di Maria, Riquelme or Veron back in the day, howd he cope with Carrick and Fletcher?
Song and Diaby?
De Jong and Barry?
While Xaviesta basicly won the WC and the Euros with Chelsea flop Torres up front...without Messi

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Post by Khaled Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:04 am

1- Batista is trying to play like Barca... which will never happen.. u can't decide to play like Barca in 2 days & suceed!

This is why in this system, especially Messi paying as a false 9 won't work, since u don't have quality of Barca players in defence & midfield @ argentina! & This is why Messi should go back & play on Right Wing, like he used to play in 08/09!!

2- Its not Messi who is not linking with Tevez, Lavezzi etc...

Did u watch the game.. Messsi was average according to his standards BUT he still created 2 dangerous chances for his teammates, putting Lavezzi 1 on 1 vs Gk who missed, 35 meter through pass.. another great pass to aguero, who missed also the chance!!

Messi passes the ball to Tevez/Lavezzi.. they un with the ball try to dribble 3 or 4 players.. both were playing individually NO TEAM WORK.. HOW can he link with them, 1-2s, etc..?? This is why Di Maria & Aguero will be better options epeciallt Aguero who links better with Messi!!!

Plus Argentina Defence SUCks big time.. how can u build up starting from defnce like Barca do.. when u have average Cbs making miss passes ??

OR 3 DM behind Messi.. no playmakers?

Is Messi's job to create chances for his teammates + create chnaces for himslef & score goals?? he can't do everything when he has average teamates/lack of creativety behind him!! he is dropping very deep to recieve a ball!!!



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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:24 am

It's just a matter of finding the right combination of players. Messi had a bad game today, but so did Lavezzi, Cambiasso, Mascherano, Burdisso, Milto, etc. It's not fair to single out Messi's under-performance when the team as a whole is not performing.
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Post by Art Morte Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:52 am

Messi is the best in the world = fact.

But it's also obvious that currently: Barcelona FC > Argentina NT
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Post by LeSwagg James Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:23 am

I don't agree, I don't think Messi shines only because of Barca (even though it helps since they play a style which he excels at, and he's comfortable with his team mates).. I think he will shine at any club

I think its the time spent with players and the amount of games played on a regular basis that separates his club form from his NT form.. Some players need to get more comfortable than others..

He's not the first player to not play as well for his NT, but at club level he is up there with the greatest to ever do it.. Besides he doesn't play BAD for Argentina, his club form is just so stupidly high that if he doesn't match it he will get bashed by most people

But he is only what 23? He has more than enough time to change that.. One WC victory and all this talk will be meaningless, just like Dirk winning the NBA Championship this year
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Post by paperbackwriter Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:33 am

Messi won't win the WC if he can't carry a mediocre side, I don't see Argentina looking more solid in 4 or 8 years than say Spain, Brazil and Germany, or even France.

They have plenty of talent up front but lack defensive talent... While Spain, Brazil, Germany and France produce talent all over the pitch.
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Post by EarlyPrototype Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:21 am

For the first time I actually agree with Cuberman. Messi needs Xavi and Iniesta badly.
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Post by kiranr Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:42 am

cyberman wrote:How many teams play the one twos like Barca?
So if he left hed suffer then.
If he cant link with Tevez, Aguero, Di Maria, Riquelme or Veron back in the day, howd he cope with Carrick and Fletcher?
Song and Diaby?
De Jong and Barry?
While Xaviesta basicly won the WC and the Euros with Chelsea flop Torres up front...without Messi

He is not supposed to link with them.

With Manu, he would link with Nani, Rooney etc.

With Arsenal he would link with RVP, Nasri etc.

With Man City, he would link with Silva, Yaya etc.

The ball is reaching the forwards, but once it reaches there, everyone tries to dribble and shoot instead of working the ball in the final third!
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Post by guest7 Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:36 am

If you take away Messi from Barca they won't be the best but rather a good team. Take the Spanish NT as an example, except they would be worse becouse Casillas won't be saving them. Alot of possesion but no goals.

I don't know why people underrate Messi so much. I mean he is pretty much their man of the match every game. And he is underperforming in Argentina becouse of stupid coaches, he is no leader type so he can't lead Argentina by himself.
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Post by Mamad Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:03 am

Spain isn't Barca without Messi. Spain is Barca without Messi and Alves.
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Post by eelir Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:08 am

Hmmm, so football is a team sport... or am i missing something?
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Post by harhar11 Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:23 am

Argentina really needs someone who can connect the midfield with attack and can make his teammates play better. Atm messi is doing that role but not only that, messi is forced to do xavis iniesta and david villas job for argentina, that is drop deep to collect the ball and organizes the play(sometimesas far as his own penalty area), make the last pass and to score. Who in the hell can do all of that?


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Post by billionmillion Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:35 pm

So you say Sanches would win ballon dor even thought Pedro is not even among top-30 players in the world? or even villa is not even consieder top 10 players? for argentina he is the best player even though he gets all the attention, he is playing under big pressure and everybody's intend is to stop him they give their life for that

this video shows that he can perform for argentina, he didnt need anyone, he just needed a luck

http://www.viddler.com/explore/unloosener/videos/2/

colombia and bolivia parked the bus and they played like it was a WC final. if you say another player would be successful as much as messi in barca team then actually you have no idea. eto, villa, pedro, ibra are examples (none of them won 2 ballon dors nor scored 53 goals with 25 assists). Actually nobody can do what Messi does at barca.
Villa and Pedro scored just 22 goals this season, tell me how is it easy to score at barcelona?
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Post by Raptorgunner Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:39 pm

cyberman wrote:Barca could sell Messi, buy Sanchez and Cesc and theyd still be favourites for everything. Theyre basicly building off of a WC winning side
If Messi moved elsewhere, he wouldnt be described as 1 of the best ever, he wouldnt be this mythical player that lords it over everyone.
The non Barca performances and fall in goals for Argentina has gone on for too long now, he just doesnt light up the international stage like a true great has.
Im sure slumming it with the poor players such as Aguero, Tevez etc affects him ( LOL)

Sorry I have to disagree with you, with out Messi Barcelona wont be favorite to win Titles.
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Post by izzy Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:43 pm

billionmillion wrote:So you say Sanches would win ballon dor even thought Pedro is not even among top-30 players in the world? or even villa is not even consieder top 10 players? for argentina he is the best player even though he gets all the attention, he is playing under big pressure and everybody's intend is to stop him they give their life for that

this video shows that he can perform for argentina, he didnt need anyone, he just needed a luck

http://www.viddler.com/explore/unloosener/videos/2/

colombia and bolivia parked the bus and they played like it was a WC final. if you say another player would be successful as much as messi in barca team then actually you have no idea. eto, villa, pedro, ibra are examples (none of them won 2 ballon dors nor scored 53 goals with 25 assists). Actually nobody can do what Messi does at barca.
Villa and Pedro scored just 22 goals this season, tell me how is it easy to score at barcelona?

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Post by paperbackwriter Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:57 pm

Everything is perfect for Messi at Barcelona, he have some very very good team mates who create tons of space with their running and passing. They are all ok with Messi being THE superstar and play very unindividualistic. The team have 75 % of possession each game. Hence he got about 25 % more time per game compared to most teams in which he have the potential to create chances.

Messi would not get the numbers he gets at Barcelona at any club. I'm not even sure if I think that Messi have actually improved in the last two years or if it's just Barcelona that have improved at building their game around his brilliance.

I'd love to see Messi do a Ronaldo, move to another elite team and outperform his impressive existing records with a complete new team (even this year Ronaldo had Carvalho, Marcelo as LB, Khedira, Özil, Di Maria, basically half the starting 11 as new team mates).
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Post by Pedram Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:44 pm

You can't base Messi's performance at NT when they have a clueless coach who only wants to copy Barcelona.

Argentina simply can't copy Barcelona, because they don't have THAT midfielders, they don't have a strong defense, they don't have a tactician like Pep Guardiola. all they know is to keep the ball by passing the ball to Defenders and Goalkeeper. sometimes they even fail to make a simple pass to their Goalkeeper.
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Post by El Chelsea Fuerte Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:53 pm

Guiltybystander wrote:
english_jewel wrote:
shinigami99 wrote:
english_jewel wrote:messi is over-rated

best player ever yet cant do anything with good "normal" players (aka the ones that are not xavi and iniesta)

as i said before if messi is going to be ONE of the greatest footballers ever than he has to win the wc with argentina, its as simple as that

you cant just perform for an already world class side and not do anything for country, thats his only way of proving that he just doesnt benefit from the barca side

which he hasnt done SO FAR (the so far is very important)
Cryuff says hello........never won world cup but was one of the greatest footballers

He isn't compared to Maradona and Pele though. People have already put Messi in the same breath as them as there's no doubt those two are the best 2 players ever.

Hahahaha, are you serious? Cruyff not in the list of Maradona and Pele?
And why is that so, then?

No doubt even?

It has always been Maradona and Pele whenever people talk about the best player ever. Have you ever heard of Maradona, Pele and Cyruff? Recently though Messi has somehow made that list.

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Post by harhar11 Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:59 pm

english_jewel wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:
english_jewel wrote:
shinigami99 wrote:
english_jewel wrote:messi is over-rated

best player ever yet cant do anything with good "normal" players (aka the ones that are not xavi and iniesta)

as i said before if messi is going to be ONE of the greatest footballers ever than he has to win the wc with argentina, its as simple as that

you cant just perform for an already world class side and not do anything for country, thats his only way of proving that he just doesnt benefit from the barca side

which he hasnt done SO FAR (the so far is very important)
Cryuff says hello........never won world cup but was one of the greatest footballers

He isn't compared to Maradona and Pele though. People have already put Messi in the same breath as them as there's no doubt those two are the best 2 players ever.

Hahahaha, are you serious? Cruyff not in the list of Maradona and Pele?
And why is that so, then?

No doubt even?

It has always been Maradona and Pele whenever people talk about the best player ever. Have you ever heard of Maradona, Pele and Cyruff? Recently though Messi has somehow made that list.

I have heard cruyff been mention among those 2 it's not as much of a fact as the other 2 but out of all the player that have been mentioned as the 3rd best player of all time, Cruyff is the one I have heard the most.

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Post by TheBlueArmy Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:41 pm

harhar11 wrote:
english_jewel wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:
english_jewel wrote:
shinigami99 wrote:
english_jewel wrote:messi is over-rated

best player ever yet cant do anything with good "normal" players (aka the ones that are not xavi and iniesta)

as i said before if messi is going to be ONE of the greatest footballers ever than he has to win the wc with argentina, its as simple as that

you cant just perform for an already world class side and not do anything for country, thats his only way of proving that he just doesnt benefit from the barca side

which he hasnt done SO FAR (the so far is very important)
Cryuff says hello........never won world cup but was one of the greatest footballers

He isn't compared to Maradona and Pele though. People have already put Messi in the same breath as them as there's no doubt those two are the best 2 players ever.

Hahahaha, are you serious? Cruyff not in the list of Maradona and Pele?
And why is that so, then?

No doubt even?

It has always been Maradona and Pele whenever people talk about the best player ever. Have you ever heard of Maradona, Pele and Cyruff? Recently though Messi has somehow made that list.

I have heard cruyff been mention among those 2 it's not as much of a fact as the other 2 but out of all the player that have been mentioned as the 3rd best player of all time, Cruyff is the one I have heard the most.

Beckenbauer should be on that list no doubt, considering all his accomplishments for club and country.
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Post by barca 2011 Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:36 pm

Swagg_Johnson wrote:I don't agree, I don't think Messi shines only because of Barca (even though it helps since they play a style which he excels at, and he's comfortable with his team mates).. I think he will shine at any club

I think its the time spent with players and the amount of games played on a regular basis that separates his club form from his NT form.. Some players need to get more comfortable than others..

He's not the first player to not play as well for his NT, but at club level he is up there with the greatest to ever do it.. Besides he doesn't play BAD for Argentina, his club form is just so stupidly high that if he doesn't match it he will get bashed by most people

But he is only what 23? He has more than enough time to change that.. One WC victory and all this talk will be meaningless, just like Dirk winning the NBA Championship this year
This. And take into consideration that some coaching decisions haven't been the best. Plus its a fact that Barca has the best MF, hands down. Messi hasn't been piss poor, but u don't just replicate the best team ATM in the world.
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Post by Khaled Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:45 am

Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, said about him 2 years ago:
" Nobody was so wonderful at 22 years old, neither maradona nor pele."
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