Bayern and Dortmund impressive pressing/defending

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Post by Onyx Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:05 pm

What do you think makes them so solid defensively? The way they press, rarely concede a shot on goal and overall look so solid defensively. Very impressive.

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Post by Pedram Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:57 pm

To press consistently for 90 minutes you need a great level of stamina and fitness.
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Post by Onyx Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:53 pm

Yeh that's true. Teams can sort of sit back and defend, so use a mixture of the two to avoid that.

Anyone got any thorough intricate tactical analysis articles etc of Bayern's/Dortmund's pressing and defending?

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Post by Sushi Master Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:37 pm

The overall work ethic of these teams is unrivaled (German grit 'n steel?).

Just check out those players... Müller, Kuba, Schweini, Bender etc. Those guys never tire and never stop running. Even frakking Mario Gomez presses.

They have great physique, but also decent enough technique, something rare nowadays in the age of midgets. Aerially, few teams can match.

Player-wise, individually as well as collectively the teams are defensively complete. CB pairs complement each other very well, even if they're not in the Thiago Silva, Chiellini or Puyol level.

FULLBACKS BRO. These teams have actual complete fullbacks who can defend, attack, move and cross. Fullback quality in today's football is extremely mediocre. Lahm-Alaba and Piszcek-Schmelzer piss all over most fullback pairings. This means the rest of the team is given extra freedom to press and a larger margin of error.

But really... it all comes down to the mentality, IMO. These guys have the warrior's attitude. Proud
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Post by rwo power Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:18 am

Well, I guess that's because the coaches managed to make them understand that football is teamwork and even "stars" need to track back.

IMO the main difference is actually that in other clubs there are big name stars that are hailed for being able to do one thing (i.e. scoring goals) and thus are allowed to otherwise be comparatively lazy and not bother with the "lower level" job of defending.

I mean, Jupp Heynckes even got Franck Ribéry and Arjen Robben to defend properly as could be seen in the Barca game.

The BL players mostly are not so known/adored because there are not so many stand-out players that are able to score 50+ goals on their own - but people still haven't realized that one star doesn't make a team and indeed can destabilize the team when only 10 players actually work while one player is allowed to do only what he wants to do, that is shine for his fans.

That is why people usually shake their head when I tell them I wouldn't want a player like, say, CRonaldo in my team - okay, he bangs in goals right and left, but defensively he leaves his team usually alone.
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Post by eelir Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:05 am

I agree with rwo, they have a team mentality, much like Barca had it before Messi and co. turned into big stars and for known reasons, we started relying mainly on Messi and not functioning as a team.

To my humble knowledge, pressing will never work if everyone is not participating 100% in it. Last couple of seasons Messi is just walking on the pitch every time he looses the ball, or if there is no opponent with a ball facing him directly.
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Post by jibers Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:27 am

@eelir wrote:I agree with rwo, they have a team mentality, much like Barca had it before Messi and co. turned into big stars and for known reasons, we started relying mainly on Messi and not functioning as a team.

To my humble knowledge, pressing will never work if everyone is not participating 100% in it. Last couple of seasons Messi is just walking on the pitch every time he looses the ball, or if there is no opponent with a ball facing him directly.

Agreed but it's a collective issue. I think the pressing Barcelona employed was to intenseto be honest. That 2011 killed the legs of most of these guys. Dortmund press smartly. That pressing that Barcelona employed is the most vicious I have ever seen, Bayern can afford to do that because they have a massive squad, Barcelona don't. Dortmund pressed similarly last season and flopped in the cl because they ran so much. Barcelona in 2011 did that every game with almost the same players! it takes its toll.
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Post by Onyx Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:21 pm

For example here last year vs Bayern, Ronaldo isn't isn't tracking back and helping out Coentrao:

Skip to 3:05.





Here again, Ronaldo isn't tracking back and Alonso's covering the LW area.

Skip to 2:03.


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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:19 pm

@Pedram wrote:To press consistently for 90 minutes you need a great level of stamina and fitness.

Yes you do but intelligence is more important than anything.
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Post by VivaStPauli Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:28 pm

It's those sexy German brains, IMHO. They press with purpose.

Just look at how Bayern pressed: they didn't brainlessly press anything and everything, all the time. They ran at the CBs and GK, so they would be forced to make hasty clearings, instead of starting an attacking move, but after that first pass was made (and it was often a bad one) they instantly dropped back much, much deeper, as to be able to absorb the pressure of the Barca attack with 9 or 10 field players, combining park-the-bus concrete with the fluidity of a pressing system.

Dortmund do much the same, though they press a bit more aggressively. But they'll let you have the ball in your half, once they've assumed their defensive shape. They'll only press your GK/CBs to keep you from countering, they won't tire themselves out by aimlessly pressing them all match.
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Post by FennecFox7 Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:29 pm

A bit off topic, I think the coach tells ronaldo when and when not to press.

I remember in one clasico he didn't have his best game offensively vs barca but worked his ass off and man marked dani alves. Alves didn't do much that game
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Post by The Franchise Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:37 pm

Defending is only and always controlling space. Not rocket science or some special physicality required. I don't agree with anyone who thinks any of these teams are much more physically capable than other teams. They just have a plan which is based on controlling space.

Both teams were happy for the opponents to have the ball in space in non threatening areas with the understanding that they can close the space in the areas they wanted because they had the numbers to do so.

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Post by Onyx Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:11 pm

Was really frustrating when Dortmund barely let us have a shot on target. Was really hard for us to get into that final 3rd area and create any chances. Splendid defending.

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Post by The Franchise Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:41 pm

Too much credit. Easy to defend a team whos idea of attacking is crossing and long balls.

Second to that is pick up the second ball on the edge of the area and try a pass inside ofrdistance shot.

You play prehistoric football.

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Post by Zealous Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:09 pm

Easier than defending slow passes 40 yards away from goal? lol

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Post by Pedram Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:17 pm

@The Franchise wrote:Too much credit. Easy to defend a team whos idea of attacking is crossing and long balls.

Second to that is pick up the second ball on the edge of the area and try a pass inside ofrdistance shot.

You play prehistoric football.


A bit harsh i think, i don't know if you watched the game but i'm sure we've done much more than just crossing and long balls. apart from missing easy chances i think it was actually one of our best performances in this year.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:33 pm

@Pedram wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:Too much credit. Easy to defend a team whos idea of attacking is crossing and long balls.

Second to that is pick up the second ball on the edge of the area and try a pass inside ofrdistance shot.

You play prehistoric football.


A bit harsh i think, i don't know if you watched the game but i'm sure we've done much more than just crossing and long balls. apart from missing easy chances i think it was actually one of our best performances in this year.
Really?

I dont think you played very well at all. It was a performance of spirit, but it was pretty sloppy after 25 minutes where you increasing got frustrated and ran out of ideas.

The majority of what you did was crosses and picking up the second ball.

Zeal, you either need to get more specific or be quite. It seems like your trying to take a dig at Barca...its hard to tell, because if you are, it makes little sense because our style of play you seem to be criticising has us in first position in La Liga.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:37 pm

I agree with Dani on Madrid's performance.

First 20 mins or so was good but after that it was very erratic.

Dortmund failed to take their chances and played at a level that was a lot lower than a week ago but until you scored they looked very comfortable to me and seemed to be getting what they came fore.

I don't think the performance was as good as the stats may say.

I have not watched you often this season but that i have seen you perform better than that.
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Post by Onyx Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:45 pm

The reason we couldn't really create chances was due to their pressing. We couldn't really get into that final third area. There's not much you can do against a team that presses like that. Occasionally with fast passes/good movement we did get through.

In terms of of play styles, it's easy to defend against Barca too since you know they'll just pass about in the middle third if the pressing is correct. E.g. like vs AC Milan first leg and Bayern. There's not much variety in their play.

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Post by The Franchise Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:50 pm

You was in their final third many times, problem was when you got their you have no ideas.

Nothing very impressive about their defensive play tonight at all, first leg was better and even then, it was just common sense to a team with the quality they have.

Maybe your trying to make yourself feel better, I dont know.

The comparision with Barca is nonesense, for obvious reasons.
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Post by Onyx Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:03 pm

Yeh but Dortmund press/defend well vs other sides too, they didn't just do it because they played us. It's part of their game.

However I do agree our final third play/possession hasn't been the best under Mourinho.


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Post by RealGunner Thu May 02, 2013 12:13 pm

Both of them had a 32 days winter break. Their fitness level is superior than other league teams.
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Post by The Franchise Thu May 02, 2013 2:06 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:Yeh but Dortmund press/defend well vs other sides too, they didn't just do it because they played us. It's part of their game.

However I do agree our final third play/possession hasn't been the best under Mourinho.


So your saying they are organised generally, have a plan and everyone has a role they stick to both offensively and defensively?

Yeah, thats true...its how teams are supposed to operate. Nothing out of the ordinary about that.
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