Assessing our Defence

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Post by Shed Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:46 pm

Assessing our Defence - Page 4 5Q7F3we



Molenation


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Post by Rebelles.REUS.rex Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:58 pm

Cahill is a major liability.
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Post by Shed Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:00 pm

@Shed wrote:Assessing our Defence - Page 4 5Q7F3we
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So much for this eh? rofl
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Post by Shed Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:18 pm

First time EVER we've conceded 4 goals under Mourinho.
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Post by Katy Perry Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:19 pm

How many goals have we conceded in away games? 5 against Spurs, 3 vs Everton, 2 vs Newcastle, 2 late equalizers against United and City..i mean last season we kept four cleansheets at Etihad, Old Trafford, Emirates, Anfield and now?

I don't think it's fair to single out individuals as I believe 90% of goals in football are due to multiple mistakes in the same action and that the way the whole team defends determinates the frequency of said mistakes more than one's ineptitude, but it's something that needs to be addressed.
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Post by Shed Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:35 pm

Assessing our Defence - Page 4 WOIxkrf



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Post by Kick Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:08 pm

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Post by Rebelles.REUS.rex Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:32 am

Defense has been a joke almost all year now. Cahill is beyond shit. Ivan and Azpi are getting beat way more often compared to last year. Azpi in he last few games has made more defensive errors than his whole Chelsea career combined.
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Post by huntsman Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:56 am

Zouma is not good enough.
Cahill has his moments but generally speaking he doesn't have the mental strength to lead our defense. He is good but not that good. Not good enough to meet our aspirations and expectations for a club like Chelsea.  
We need Varane.
Azpi is fine. He has what it takes to work his way back to his top level. Ivan is fine at the moment.

The midfield is very defensively oriented.
The structure of Chelsea is built on mourinho's image. There's too much mourinho in this Chelsea team and this is coming from one of the biggest mourinho fans.

We have to upgrade with guys like veratti (dude was impressive, better than all our midfield guys bar hazard), and pogba.

Strikers are not good enough. They're one dimensional. We need the number 9 tech striker a la suarez / messi / aguero.
Costa can be stopped, drogba can be stopped, remy can be stopped. They are classic mourinho type strikers that suit the mourinho play style.

Chelsea is good, but can be much better.

Add to the fact that Hazard cant do everything by himself. When Chelsea are in trouble, all the players look for him to pass the ball then watch him try to pull out some magic. But this wont work. How many times was he fouled against PSG? 20, 25 times? At some points he was triple marked.

Messi has an entire team built around him, and Messi draws energy from the performance of his team. The defenders and midfielders and strikers all are structured / chosen in a way to complement the striking genius of messi.

We cant continue to play it safe because Chelsea is not an underdog team. We cant use the psychological advantage that teams like Inter and Porto used to win matches against superior teams against odds.

We wont be able to overcome second tier teams like Atleti and Dortmund or even Juve let alone the Big Three (Barca Bayern Madrid) if we keep on playing it safe.

A loss with style triumphs a win with no substance.

Team has to believe in this with every fibre in their being. That is the essence of Barca / Bayern play. They have got their list of  priorities right.

Chelsea is good. But I want better. I want best.
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Post by Katy Perry Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:28 pm

What makes you say Zouma is not good enough? He's a teenager thrown into our first team and has been solid every single time he has played, and you might add that he's even outperforming Cahill. He's definitely good enough for Chelsea in the future and most likely good enough to start right now too. What has Varane even done to deserve to be rated higher than Zouma? He was a starter for half a season in a season where Mou clashed with Ramos/Casillas/Pepe and in that season they were very shaky defensively and won nada. And he's been benched since then.

And you shouldn't confuse how defensively each of our midfielders are to the way our midfielders are asked to play. You said it yourself, we have been playing it safe, like an underdog because that's how Mou approaches the big games and he always did it everywhere in his career, Inter Porto and even Madrid. That's how he would play even if he had Pirlo, Xavi and Iniesta in their primes.
I believe we don't need to restructure our midfield, but one addition there would be surely appreciated.

Please, let's not knee-jerk. It was a difficult match for Costa to perform, he obviously could've done better yesterday but that doesn't mean he has to be replaced. You said it yourself, Costa is the classical Mou striker and has done wonders so far. Even Suarez, Aguero, Messi can be stopped and they're certainly less suited to play in Mou's system and wouldn't have made a difference yesterday.
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Post by huntsman Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:04 am

Zouma doesn't have the basic ball handling skills. He cant handle a ball between his feet, dribble. His decision making is below average atm. He will improve. But that will take time; 2 years of hard work and enough time play.

Varane has the experience, the playing time (if you want to make a comparison) is more or less the same. Varane also has the composure and his decision making is better. His ball handling skills are much better. This part of the game is not easy to develop.

That's what distinguishes Azpi and Ivan for example. They have very good ball handling skills (They know when to pass, when to dribble, they're cool about it and have the confidence and composure to take those decisions instinctively. Cause the moment you Think! (as a defender) you're gone. Zouma thinks. Zouma Stutters. He needs more time. A lot more. He might boss inside the box but that's not enough.

Now coming to the Midfield. I don't believe in Ramires, Mikel. I neither favor the play of Cuadrado (from what little I have seen so far). I want Oscar to be offloaded (if it were to me). Those guys are good but not good enough for Chelsea.

I would employ Pogba, throw Willian back instead of Ramires and get another attack. midfld. I personally like veratti. That would also help get more juice out of Hazard. Hazard cant do everything by himself. He's also been handed defensive roles which take a lot of effort and worse; it hinders his development, because soon the defensive routines will take over some of his sharpness and speed of execution from his attacking game. That's how it works. On a surface level, those things might not be felt, but that doesn't mean its not lurking underneath.

Up front, we need more of a variety. All our strikers are one dimensional. You need to #9 that provides you with technical advantage. Costa is better than Drogba and Remy at handling the ball (but only inside the box, his advantage is the first 1 to 2 secs, after that, the ball will be intercepted).

I am just listing what I think would make the team better. Doesn't mean those things and changes have to take effect.

We're just talking.
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Post by Katy Perry Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:57 pm

I just don't see how Zouma is not good enough and needs to be replaced by Varane because of his ball handling skill. Of course Varane is better at it because he started his career as a midfielder, but the most important thing for a CB is defending, period. The rest are just nice addition to have but not necessary ones. I'd actually prefer if our defenders as a supplementary skill have the knack for goals like JT/Iva/Cahill because Matic and Cesc always collect the ball from the CB so they don't really need excellent ball handling skills.

If you said instead that Varane needs to come as the future Terry replacement to partner Zouma because he's got a lot of potential and because it would be nice to have at least one ball playing CB, I'd agree with that.



Well yea, except Cuadrado who has just come and is a beast, I agree that they're not good enough to start as many matches as they are starting now, but that doesn't mean they have to be sold.
I believe Mikel is still needed as Matic's replacement as a physical and defensive presence next to Cesc to take the burden of shielding the defence off him, he's good at that role but not good enough to start over Matic. If he's fine with being his back-up then we should keep him because I doubt we're going to find a better player that fits that profile.

Oscar perhaps is not the ideal for playing CAM because if we look at Mou's previous players in that position (Sneijder and Oezil) they were the main outlet for creativity capable of making an illuminating pass at every moment and I just don't see it in Oscar, if he was a DM/CM it would be another story, but as a CAM it's a problem. He still can be useful because when he's relieved of the creativity burden he can be very dangerous in the final third because he can score from anywhere and links well with Costa/Hazard/Willy. Plus can play as a winger and IMO can be groomed as a CM in the future.

Ramires is another story, I am a big fan of him but I don't think he's suited to play in the pivot, and he's definitely neither good enough to play next to Cesc or to replace him. I think he's suited for the wide role he performed under RDM or the hybrid CM/RM rolei in a 3men midfield that he played at Benfica and that Di Maria played last year at Real because he's best traits is his speed and his infinite stamina that allows him to be a threat with his runs in the box in counter-attacks and to press very high in the pitch and regain the possession of the ball, and he needs space for that and that's only available when playing wide. He doesn't have 1/2 of the playmaking ability and tactical awareness Cesc and Matic have to play in the pivot. So unless we plan to play him outwide or to switch to a 3 men midfield we should sell him.

As for who to buy, either Pogba or Verratti would be fantastic but they're going to throw a astronomical fee (I predict >50 for Verratti and >100 for Pogba) and we really don't look like spending that much with FFP and Torres/Shevchenko failures. Since MVG has lost his spot in Chelsea's first team and as the most promising loanee we can't really rely on him, therefore we should go for guys like Strootman, Gundogan, Pjanic, Kovacic who are excellent midfielders but that won't require astronomical fees.

Well, Hazard, Oscar and Willy being handed defensive roles which take a lot of effort and hinder their development and sharpness and speed of execution from their attacking game is the reason why our back 4 has been so solid for the majority of Mou's time here. This way the fullbacks are always covered and never exposed and thus have less work to do, and thus the CB have less work to do as a consequence. You can't have them both, you either have a more exposed defence or attacking players more dedicated to the attacking aspect of their game.



You think we need more variety as our starting ST? Like without a set starting striker like last season when Eto'o, Ba, Torres all started games indiscriminately and without a precise pattern? I don't, I think we need a set starting striker and that needs to be Costa. He hasn't put any foot wrong so far and scored 17 goals in the first half of his debut season and gave a whole new dimension to our attack. He's not one dimensional like Remy and today's Drogba, he's actually very underrated technically, he's very good at linking-up and to move anywhere across the pitch. That's because he used to play the role Raul Garcia and Griezman are playing now with Atletico as a wingforward/support striker next to Falcao. The matches when he didn't perform were the ones where the service to him was abysmal and he was isolated all game against the whole defence.
Even more technical strikers like Suarez and Aguero would struggle with that. I can only think of prime Drogba and Ibra who could survive in those conditions.

We need variety as our #2 striker, to either add something else than Costa to our game when he isn't there or to complement him better than Remy/Drogba do in those games where we play with two strikers, that is certain. I think that if we gave Remy Drogba's playing time either to replace Costa or to play alongside him, then maybe we would have already found this complementary striker. Since he's become our #2 striker, let's see how he does in the remainder of the season in that role. There's Bamford on loan as well who has been beasting it two years in a row in the Championship and would be worth a shot.




We're just talking, but we're not talking on our own, we're talking on GoalLegacy. GL has 3000 registered members and milions of visits every month, I'd be shocked if amongst those there isn't Mou or one of his assistent. Those things and changes will very likely take effect.
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Post by Kick Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:31 pm

Not quite sure what I am reading but Huntsman, stop playing Fifa and come back to reality.

Zouma and Cahill are fine, we have the second best defence in the league and had the best last season, you can't do that with poor players.

While Varane would be nice, he is overrated to the point where Madrid fans think he is the second coming of Jesus. He would be a solid addition, but I doubt he'd make a noticeable difference over Cahill.

The main issue I want to fix in the summer is the CM spot, we've come so far from the days of playing Ramires - Lampard in the pivot, but if we want to continue, we need another Matic type player.

Not Veratti, that dude does very little and cannot tackle. Pogba would be incredible but expensive.

The CF's and AM's are fine, we've not had a problem with goals for most of this season so there is no need to worry there.
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Post by huntsman Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:54 am

Read what I wrote again. I am not addressing mediocrity here. There is no doubt that the team is fine, okay, not bad.  

The points I made are to alleviate the team from a state of tolerable to one of excellence. Points are unorthodox, so let me explain.

Pogba expensive? Maybe...depends on how you view it. His 57 to 75mil tag is not what you call cheap. But It's not about how much he costs but rather how much returns the club can make from his services.  You could invest 70mil in a project and still end up generating 30mil revenues, right?

Varane, over-rated? why? He has all the elements that make him a successor to Terry and even surpass him. One of the best centre backs in the making. Varane is an outcast at Madrid, not sure what you mean by madrid fans over-rating him. The only player that Madrid fans over-rate is Iker Casillas; a player who at the pinnacle of his career was a joke of a GK, yet many make it sound like he is #1.



Offload Ramires, Ship Oscar to PSG, and use the cash to buy an attacking midfielder (Veratti or another candidate with same or similar qualities) , throw Willian back to play the supporting CAM role in place of the retired Ramires. And look for another breed of centre forwards. Those with burst and dribbling abilities. We've got three good poachers. But If you want to take the team to the next level, then that is how you ought to think and that is what you need to do.

Now that is what I call a plan, a perfect blend of players that can compete at the highest levels.

It aint about what me and you say here all day; its about the truth, reality. And that is reality, my friend.
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Post by Shed Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:06 pm

11 games played, 2 or more goals conceded in 8 of them. Horror show.
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Post by huntsman Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:23 pm

There are two quick fixes for this predicament:

1) Either the club changes the manager
2) The Club Owner / Management light a fire under the players

number 1 is clear. Regarding number 2, its a message to tell the players that we are behind the manager and we're not going to sack him but we will not hesitate to offload those of you who under perform anymore. So you better live with this fact and start working your asses out or you are the candidates to be dropped.

In circumstances as such, the majority will take a pause and step aside whilst letting circumstances work themselves out. The weakest link becomes the manager, and the easiest to change / get rid off. This doesnt have to happen at a conscious level but that is what happens at club levels. This is where Club Hierarchy has to step in and make a decision based on the bigger club interests.

I have no doubt that Mourinho messed up with his expectations, and trust in his players. I ve been calling it all out since last season. But the players are guilty as he is, because they are expected to perform well against smaller teams. The manager shouldnt be the only one to blame. You could blame him later for not finishing first or second in the League but there is obviously something going wrong that needs immediate attention here and it has to start with the players.
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Post by Abramovich Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:06 pm

Drop Cesc or drop Mou, simple as that.
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Post by huntsman Sat Oct 24, 2015 5:11 pm

@huntsman wrote:Zouma is not good enough.
Cahill has his moments but generally speaking he doesn't have the mental strength to lead our defense. He is good but not that good. Not good enough to meet our aspirations and expectations for a club like Chelsea.  
We need Varane.
Azpi is fine. He has what it takes to work his way back to his top level. Ivan is fine at the moment..

Zouma doesn't have the basic ball handling skills. He cant handle a ball between his feet, dribble. His decision making is below average atm. He will improve. But that will take time; 2 years of hard work and enough time play.

Varane has the experience, the playing time (if you want to make a comparison) is more or less the same. Varane also has the composure and his decision making is better. His ball handling skills are much better. This part of the game is not easy to develop.

That's what distinguishes Azpi and Ivan for example. They have very good ball handling skills (They know when to pass, when to dribble, they're cool about it and have the confidence and composure to take those decisions instinctively. Cause the moment you Think! (as a defender) you're gone. Zouma thinks. Zouma Stutters. He needs more time. A lot more. He might boss inside the box but that's not enough.


That's what I said about Zouma, and nothing changed since then. He f**kin freezes and stutters every time the ball is betwee his legs! He's way out of his depth.
Chelsea are paying the price.

This is 2015 and not 2010. You need defenders who can actually handle the ball and not just hit headers
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Post by Kick Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:06 am

He was playing RB, what did you expect? He was fine and is one of our better CB's. He isn't worse than Ivanovic at all, Payet would have had a field day against Bran but Zouma kept him at bay for large parts of the game.

Zouma isn't the player who is costing us games, it would be like singling out Begovic and saying he should do better. There are other players who need replacing first.
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Post by huntsman Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:31 am

He's a scrub! as simple as that!
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Post by Shed Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:44 pm

Our defense has been scored on, by an opposition player, one time in our last 990 minutes (16½ hours) of football. Just remarkable really :bow:
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Post by Katy Perry Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:27 pm

It's really flabbergasting.
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Post by Kick Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:38 am

I came across this odd word today 'concede', anyone know what it means? hmm
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Post by Shed Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:59 am

Almost hieroglyphical. One of those arcane words of an ancient, long-forgotten language, alongside others like "loss", out of form", "crisis", and "x points off 4th".
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Post by Kick Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:04 am

Oh, like 'Jose' and 'Mourinho'?
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Post by Katy Perry Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:13 am

It means having a goal scored against us by our opponents. I really hope our opponents stop toying around and start playing seriously and actually try to have goals scored for them as well so we can see the level of our defence. hmm
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