Guardiola to Bayern

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Art Morte wrote:So, has Guardiola's season been a success for winning the Bundesliga in record time or a failure for losing this badly in the CL semis? Or something from between?

I'd say league + CL semis is a success for any club, no matter how high the expectations are. No team has ever managed to win 2 CLs in a row.

Mm, perhaps. On the other hand, no disrespect to Arsenal or Manchester United - whom Bayern beat in the previous rounds, this was the first real big test of Bayern's season (winning the Bundesliga was always inevitable) and they lost 5 - 0 without once looking good. Their season sort of feels like they did the bare minimum - although winning the Bundesliga in such a convincing fashion might still tilt the balance to Bayern's and Guardiola's favour.

Blue wrote:

The_Badger wrote:They've won three pots this season already and you're calling it a failure?!

Bayern of last season was arguably the best side i have ever seen Imo, this team is literally a shadow of that side.

The only thing that has changed is the manager, and oh yeah they added a star in Goetze.

Winning your league is not a failure. Bayern Munich last season may have been great, although I would argue they weren't as great as Pep's Barca, but anyone considering this season a failure for Bayern Munich is really talking crap.

Art Morte wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Art Morte wrote:So, has Guardiola's season been a success for winning the Bundesliga in record time or a failure for losing this badly in the CL semis? Or something from between?

I'd say league + CL semis is a success for any club, no matter how high the expectations are. No team has ever managed to win 2 CLs in a row.

Mm, perhaps. On the other hand, no disrespect to Arsenal or Manchester United - whom Bayern beat in the previous rounds, this was the first real big test of Bayern's season (winning the Bundesliga was always inevitable) and they lost 5 - 0 without once looking good. Their season sort of feels like they did the bare minimum - although winning the Bundesliga in such a convincing fashion might still tilt the balance to Bayern's and Guardiola's favour.

How many teams would've been a real test? English teams are all crap apart from maybe Chelsea and we don't even have to talk about italian teams. Barcelona is finished and Paris overrated as hell and we don't really expect Dortmund to beat Bayern. So we have Real Madrid. Maybe Chelsea, maybe Atletico. That's not a lot is it?

Pep: "When you lose 0-4, you're wrong, but I like [having] the ball and I can't do what I don't feel"

zigra wrote:

Art Morte wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
I'd say league + CL semis is a success for any club, no matter how high the expectations are. No team has ever managed to win 2 CLs in a row.

Mm, perhaps. On the other hand, no disrespect to Arsenal or Manchester United - whom Bayern beat in the previous rounds, this was the first real big test of Bayern's season (winning the Bundesliga was always inevitable) and they lost 5 - 0 without once looking good. Their season sort of feels like they did the bare minimum - although winning the Bundesliga in such a convincing fashion might still tilt the balance to Bayern's and Guardiola's favour.

How many teams would've been a real test? English teams are all crap apart from maybe Chelsea and we don't even have to talk about italian teams. Barcelona is finished and Paris overrated as hell and we don't really expect Dortmund to beat Bayern. So we have Real Madrid. Maybe Chelsea, maybe Atletico. That's not a lot is it?

No, there's not many top teams when looking at the highest level of the pyramid, but the thing is that Bayern are part of that very highest level. Yet when facing another team from there, they deservedly lose 5 - 0. That seems quite the big drop when just last season they won the competition in a very convincing fashion.

Guardiola "Defeat today has no relation to possession. Some days we do it well but today we didn't do anything right"

Art Morte wrote:So, has Guardiola's season been a success for winning the Bundesliga in record time or a failure for losing this badly in the CL semis? Or something from between?

Clearly winning the league, semis in the CL, and a cup final (so far) is by any objective standards a strong season.

Problem is the huge dip of form we suffered since a while, when things get serious in the CL.
That leaves a bad taste.

Pep surely has to answer for that, he made a couple of unforced errors.

You know nothing, Pep Snow

Art Morte wrote:

zigra wrote:

Art Morte wrote:

Mm, perhaps. On the other hand, no disrespect to Arsenal or Manchester United - whom Bayern beat in the previous rounds, this was the first real big test of Bayern's season (winning the Bundesliga was always inevitable) and they lost 5 - 0 without once looking good. Their season sort of feels like they did the bare minimum - although winning the Bundesliga in such a convincing fashion might still tilt the balance to Bayern's and Guardiola's favour.

How many teams would've been a real test? English teams are all crap apart from maybe Chelsea and we don't even have to talk about italian teams. Barcelona is finished and Paris overrated as hell and we don't really expect Dortmund to beat Bayern. So we have Real Madrid. Maybe Chelsea, maybe Atletico. That's not a lot is it?

No, there's not many top teams when looking at the highest level of the pyramid, but the thing is that Bayern are part of that very highest level. Yet when facing another team from there, they deservedly lose 5 - 0. That seems quite the big drop when just last season they won the competition in a very convincing fashion.

5-0 is a lot but it's not as if Real was "5-0 better" than Bayern just like Bayern wasn't "7-0 better" than Barcelona. There are always some crucial points. A bit more luck and Bayern scores in the first tie which means they can play the home game in a completely different fashion. Today after they go down 2-0 they know it's over. Morale is down and many players don't belive they can change the outcome while Real Madrid players feel like Super-Saiyajins. It's always hard to play a good match after such a situation.

Real Madrid absolutely deserved to go through and were the better team but even though they won 5-0 I still wouldn't say Bayern couldn't beat them just aswell if they were to play against each other in 2 weeks once more.

Its all about understand your mistakes. This Pep first time he's ever been actually dominated by the scoreline/outclassed. Before it was just small mistakes that cost him games, but this game and the one against Dortmund earlier should be a listen to him and he should analyze those for the near future. I still think perhaps next season his Bayern side maybe some what like us in 10/11 season no that they've been bought down to earth.

Does anyone think it was a mistake to play the reserves in the (technically) throwaway league matches leading up to the CL Semis?

I think you have to find a mix. If you burn your players out they can risk injury and fatigue. If you play your reserve side you risk the starters losing that match quickness and form.

People are seriously quoting the Bundesliga title as success? LMAO Their closest competitor has 65 points after 32 games. That's about Everton, Napoli and Athletic Bilbao level. With Bayern's squad any coach in the world would have won Bundesliga this season. You have to look beyond that.

Chelsea European Supercup: 2-2 (last second equalizer)
Dortmund Supercup: 1-4
Dortmund at Allianz: 0-3
City at Allianz: 2-3
Arsenal all over the place defensively until they got reduced to 10 men.
Moyeschester United much closer than it should have been. United were in it and leading after 150 minutes.
Real Madrid Bernabeu: 0-1
Real Madrid Allianz: 0-4

Worst coach I have ever seen. A bit of AVB + a bit of Zeman = Pep.

He's too stubborn and if his plan A doesn't work then that's it really.

As amazingly stacked as Bayerns squad is, he hasn't got a Messi to pick the ball up 30 yards from goal and score all on his own.

Did they create a meaningful chance in the 180 minutes?

I think, given the fact that they were going to dominate possession and have to break us down, dropping the intensity mid-season was a disadvantage.

Fußball wrote:People are seriously quoting the Bundesliga title as success? LMAO Their closest competitor has 65 points after 32 games. That's about Everton, Napoli and Athletic Bilbao level. With Bayern's squad any coach in the world would have won Bundesliga this season. You have to look beyond that.

Chelsea European Supercup: 2-2 (last second equalizer)
Dortmund Supercup: 1-4
Dortmund at Allianz: 0-3
City at Allianz: 1-3
Arsenal all over the place defensively until they got reduced to 10 men.
Moyeschester United much closer than it should have been. United were in it and leading after 150 minutes.
Real Madrid Bernabeu: 0-1
Real Madrid Allianz: 0-4

Worst coach I have ever seen. A bit of AVB + a bit of Zeman = Pep.

You don't win what Guardiola has if you're the worst coach.

The_Badger wrote:

Fußball wrote:People are seriously quoting the Bundesliga title as success? LMAO Their closest competitor has 65 points after 32 games. That's about Everton, Napoli and Athletic Bilbao level. With Bayern's squad any coach in the world would have won Bundesliga this season. You have to look beyond that.

Chelsea European Supercup: 2-2 (last second equalizer)
Dortmund Supercup: 1-4
Dortmund at Allianz: 0-3
City at Allianz: 1-3
Arsenal all over the place defensively until they got reduced to 10 men.
Moyeschester United much closer than it should have been. United were in it and leading after 150 minutes.
Real Madrid Bernabeu: 0-1
Real Madrid Allianz: 0-4

Worst coach I have ever seen. A bit of AVB + a bit of Zeman = Pep.

You don't win what Guardiola has if you're the worst coach.

Of course you do when you have Messi, Xavi and Iniesta in their primes. When Tito was fighting for his life in the USA, they pulled off an amazing 4-0 comeback through self-coaching against Milan and a 100 point La Liga season, many games without a coach. That's how great Barca's squad was. And it wasn't even in its peak anymore, nowhere near what Pep had in 2008.

He is a great motivator. I give him that. Many stars players at Barca idolized him and run their lungs out for him. That's his true achievement.

vanDEEZ wrote:Does anyone think it was a mistake to play the reserves in the (technically) throwaway league matches leading up to the CL Semis?

I think you have to find a mix.  If you burn your players out they can risk injury and fatigue.  If you play your reserve side you risk the starters losing that match quickness and form.

That's one of the most discussed topics in Germany for some time now.
It's hard to say really. I think it's hard to switch around like that but maybe professional players are able to handle that. I think the bigger problem is that they could mentally switch of because they won the league and even the cup game was against a 2nd division team so they always knew they'd win that. It's like having holidays for weeks and then you have to peak at once. I think that must be extremely difficult.

But you now.. most teams are in bad form at some point of the season so their bad form might just be coincidence.

vanDEEZ wrote:Does anyone think it was a mistake to play the reserves in the (technically) throwaway league matches leading up to the CL Semis?

I think you have to find a mix.  If you burn your players out they can risk injury and fatigue.  If you play your reserve side you risk the starters losing that match quickness and form.

It was a huge mistake. He instantly deflated our team's form.

It's not all his doing of course, there's the danger of that happening anyway, but it would be his task to counteract that, and he reacted exactly wrong.

That can't be all though, something more fundamental has been going wrong last few months.

Fußball wrote:

The_Badger wrote:

Fußball wrote:People are seriously quoting the Bundesliga title as success? LMAO Their closest competitor has 65 points after 32 games. That's about Everton, Napoli and Athletic Bilbao level. With Bayern's squad any coach in the world would have won Bundesliga this season. You have to look beyond that.

Chelsea European Supercup: 2-2 (last second equalizer)
Dortmund Supercup: 1-4
Dortmund at Allianz: 0-3
City at Allianz: 1-3
Arsenal all over the place defensively until they got reduced to 10 men.
Moyeschester United much closer than it should have been. United were in it and leading after 150 minutes.
Real Madrid Bernabeu: 0-1
Real Madrid Allianz: 0-4

Worst coach I have ever seen. A bit of AVB + a bit of Zeman = Pep.

You don't win what Guardiola has if you're the worst coach.

Of course you do when you have Messi, Xavi and Iniesta in their primes. When Tito was fighting for his life in the USA, they pulled off an amazing 4-0 comeback through self-coaching against Milan and a 100 point La Liga season, many games without a coach. That's how great Barca's squad was. And it wasn't even in its peak anymore, nowhere near what Pep had in 2008.

He is a great motivator. I give him that. Many stars players at Barca idolized him and run their lungs out for him. That's his true achievement.

Which he arguably was responsible for.

You're posting absolute arse custard I'm afraid. Calling Guardiola the worst coach you have ever seen is possibly the stupidest thing I've read on this forum, which says a lot with halamadrid, sportsczy and Sepi around.

You seem to forget where Barca were when he took over. To go from that bloated, worthless crap under Rijkaard's last year to triple-winners in a season is no fluke.

The_Badger wrote:

You seem to forget where Barca were when he took over. To go from that bloated, worthless crap under Rijkaard's last year to triple-winners in a season is no fluke.

In a CL semi-final, narrowly losing out to Manchester United parking the bus and a Paul Scholes wonderstrike.

I say it again. Pep's coaching achievements at Barca are courtesy of basic disciplinary and motivational factors. He sorted out slackers like Dinho and Deco and made star players work hard and sweat. Everything else, the playing style etc. was already in place. Go and watch Barca Juvenile A. They play like the first team without Pep ever touching them.

At Bayern Heynckes didn't leave behind slackers or partying players in his squad and he already introduced pressing. So now we're seeing Pep's actual football-related coaching abilities. And apart from keeping the ball at all cost and attacking without balance he doesn't seem to have much to offer tactically.

Awful coach. Great motivator.

Barca were utterly toothless against Man Utd, they were probably fortunate to even get to the semis anyway. Hugely unimpressive in the earlier rounds.

They were terrible in the league, I think Barca finished about 20 points off the top and about 3 from finishing outside the CL spots.

You're understating what Guardiola did in forming one of the greatest club sides in the history of the sport, you simply do not achieve things like that by simply being a "good motivator".

It appears this is simply a typical GL knee-jerk reaction to the result earlier, I'm sure when you've calmed down you'll feel embarrassed with what you've posted.

Of course Guardiola is a great coach, anyone who would say otherwise doesn't know football. They still had a good season, and what he did with Barcelona will probably be remembered for decades to come.

However, he is not the wisest tactically, and I don't think he has quite the capacity to bring venom to his players- with that I mean, his players don't "die" for him or for winning the match.

When things go wrong, you don't often see his teams turn things around again. I think his teams lack a certain kind of passion, of doing the unexpected- which might be why a player like Zlatan didn't do well there.

His focus on the bigger picture, his obsession with possession football, makes that he can't anticipate well on the moment- nor motivate his teams well enough. When you need to win, you have to give your players both freedom and the will to grind out a result. He doesn't do either.

When it is half-time and you are losing, you need to be able as a coach to come up with a radical new strategy, do the unexpected, bring new life to the team. I honestly have hardly see him do that. His teams lack some sort of energy to succeed, and will only win on sheer quality alone when things get rough- not because of Guardiola.

See, Barcelona was fantastic when they had the "spirit" of arguably playing one of the best forms of football ever shown, I am not saying they were uninspired. Pep let them play that way, that is to his merit certainly, but he was simply not good at making them passionate to WIN ABOVE ALL, there is really no fire there most of the time- not a team of men.

To be fair, Pep said Tito was the tactical mastermind between the two. I (like most people) thought it was just lyrical wax in support of his best friend getting the job.

Maybe he was right all along (while still being lyrical wax at the same time).

I can't understand why did Pep move away from the Martinez-Schewni midfield duo. They were incredibly dominate in their CL run.

Doc wrote:To be fair, Pep said Tito was the tactical mastermind between the two. I (like most people) thought it was just lyrical wax in support of his best friend getting the job.

Maybe he was right all along (while still being lyrical wax at the same time).

This is very much true. Tito was tactically very astute, everyone knows it. The players called him "encyclopedia" because he was known for his tactical knowledge. He made many game-changing tactical changes last season when Barca struggled to turn games around at the beginning of the season, like going 4-2-4 or 3-4-3 or putting Villa infront of Messi. It is also known that it was Tito who had the idea to put Messi as a false 9 first because he coached him in the youth ranks and played him centrally there. Unfortunately he got ill then and had to concentrate on more important things than football.

Pep is just a motivator and keeps the discipline and work rate high in the dressing room.

Fuzzyball, while I can't argue your knowledge of Barcelona due to you knowing more than me on that matter, you are making it seem like Pep is a better version of Juanma Lilo.

To which I really disagree (you are also ruining my image of Pep )