Re: Is it really lack of quality players??

by free_cat Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:21 am

Depth is overated. We won the treble with basically 13 players.

Arsenal problem is not depth, it's quality + injuries. Your physical coaches + Wenger don't know how to keep your players healty. See Fabregas or RVP as players who were being injured all the time at Emirates and are reasonably healthy outside.

by free_cat Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:24 am

Wilson37 wrote:and i dont think playing 4-4-2 will make things better.. even small teams play with lone strikers these days and will over run our midfield.. i dont find any team currently other than United, who has adopted this style since long, doing it successfully..
so we are rebuilding and we will see these problems for a while.. .

Even United doesn't play 442 nowadays, but more a 4411 with Rooney as AM.

by sportsczy Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:39 am

A lot of teams play the 442... it's coming back. Man U does it. Chelsea wants to do it. PSG does it. Madrid even tried it with good success (Modric and Ozil playing, Di Maria off, Benz and CR7 on attack). Etc. It's not a strict 442. But generally, you have a left AM, a right AM, two holding mids and 2 strikers.

It's actually a very attractive style.

by SUPERCARTTS Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:56 pm

free_cat wrote:

Even United doesn't play 442 nowadays, but more a 4411 with Rooney as AM.

Potato potatoe - same thing.

4-4-2 and 4-4-1-1 could be construed as another term for attack and defend, set ups.

My argument regarding 4-4-2 or 4-3-1-2 (which I also like), is that I feel it could offer us more stability in the middle third where we are constantly out manoeuvred. The right personell is obviously essential - although I'm convinced with 2 signing it could become a reality.

by free_cat Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:44 pm

SUPERCARTTS wrote:
free_cat wrote:

Even United doesn't play 442 nowadays, but more a 4411 with Rooney as AM.

Potato potatoe - same thing.

Ok, then 4231 is also the same. 4213 too, 451 and 433 not so much but what the hell, the same too....

by Highburied Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:20 pm

4-3-1-2 is different.

It is with one classic DM, LCM, RCM, AM/CM, two STs...

by free_cat Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:30 pm

highburied wrote:4-3-1-2 is different.

It is with one classic DM, LCM, RCM, AM/CM, two STs...

Tiny differences. All is basically the same.

by Highburied Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:03 pm

free_cat wrote:
highburied wrote:4-3-1-2 is different.

It is with one classic DM, LCM, RCM, AM/CM, two STs...

Tiny differences. All is basically the same.

Disagree in peace.

Milan plays or played 4-3-1-2... Havent seen them lately.

Arsenal plays 4-2-3-1 now...

Actually our formation is 4-2-2-1-1... Our wingers are really conservative imo, almost like 4-4-2.

by El Gunner Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:13 pm

I've been feeling the same way about this. I've also expressed my feelings and thoughts on here and twitter. THIS TEAM HAS QUALITY! Something else is juz the problem, and I think we all can agree that Wenger is tactically inept. And maybe he has lost it tactically, as Highburied said.

But with that said, I also feel that we should be having MORE quality players. For at this moment we don't even have a proper DM. I don't think Giroud has enough in him to be our 20+ goalscorer, which is what we need. I'm also not that confident with our wing players. And then of course...squad depth. Something we've been lacking for a long, long time. We don't have that Dzeko, Chicharito that can come off the bench and save a game for us.

by Le Samourai Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:32 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:I've been saying this for ages. The size and quality of the squad is one problem of many. While that can be solved by buying more and better players, those players can only be as good as the system allows them to be. If the system is already faulty it's unlikely new personnel is suddenly going to make it work and it's pretty clear we're playing with a faulty system and have no contingency plans.

The problems extend beyond tactics as well. If the players can't be motivated to play at their best every week then something is clearly wrong somewhere. Likewise, if the players respond poorly to tough situations and feel nervous playing in front of the home fans, again, there's a problem somewhere.

Ultimately, it's the responsibility of the manager to address these issues and I get the increasing feeling that he's not doing enough to do so. For example, defensive errors have been common place for several seasons now and Arsenal without the ball has always been average at best. Recently, we've seen evidence that our shape has gotten better but we don't press consistently; we only ever press when we seem to be in the mood to do so, which isn't good enough. Then there are the frequent lapses in concentration and poor marking at set-pieces.

Set-pieces is something we obviously don't do any work on. We don't defend them well at all and we certainly don't make the most of them offensively. Despite having adept free kick takers, the delivery is consistently poor and we have no real strategy other than to throw into the box and see what happens.

On the ball, there has been a clear stagnation. The movement of the players has steadily gotten worse season by season, as has our ability to retain possession. We don't play with any sense of urgency or intent any more. The manager hasn't done anything to change this; he's kept the same shape, the same players and the same style. The players we have right now are quite versatile and can play in different positions, so a different shape is a viable solution. It's baffling why we haven't tried this.

When you examine it all like this, it's hard to really support Wenger. Wenger, to me, seems like a man stuck in his ways a bit. His transfer policy has changed slightly but his methods of training the players and the tactics we use haven't changed when it's quite clear they need to. If he can't do it himself then he needs to get some coaches in that can: that's what guys like Steve Bould and Neil Banfield are there for.

Obviously our recruitment policy needs to be looked at as well but there's a lot of work to be done on this team and the longer we go without any of these problems being resolved, the more faith I lose in Arsene Wenger.

While I agree to some extent you really need to explore further than the surface issues you've outlined.

To me Wenger's approach to the game (one I personally admire) is to teach his players how to play and then put trust in them to seamlessly translate that knowledge into fluid football. He puts trust in individuals and players because he has given them the resources they need to work independent of himself.

He did this magnificently for half a decade and the players who he molded into ideal Arsenal footballers have abandoned him. That was hardly his fault.

Alot of the solutions you're outlining would involve heavy micromanagement and tactical preparation, that perhaps is required, but that he has never advertised as part of the package you receive in having him as your manager.

When you lose what you build and you assemble a squad of bargains who lack the talent, the compatibility, the understanding of the game to do what you want to do and you're reduced to merely going through the motions to obtain a champions league spot....it's difficult to motivate. For a romantic like Wenger it's difficult to change.

If he got players who could successfully understand and translate the way he approaches the game in his mind to the field he would honestly be much much better.

I know he would never come here but I could just imagine him coaching Ozil and Benzema, expanding the scope of their understanding of the game, adding new dimensions to them as individuals and then placing a level of trust in them to figure out a way to win.

The manager you want sees players as tools in his toolbox that he's using to win a match , nothing more , nothing less. There's no sustainability in that, tactics will always become outdated, managers will always be outmaneuvered, but if you give players a style and an understanding of how they can manipulate that style to their advantage they will carry that and it will always give them something to fall back on.

by Jay29 Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:04 pm

He did this magnificently for half a decade and the players who he molded into ideal Arsenal footballers have abandoned him. That was hardly his fault.

Except he was the one who failed to deliver upon promises, which lead to players being reluctant to renew their contracts and eventually forcing the club's hand.

In any case, this is an eventuality that should have been planned for. It's naive to think that every player will remain loyal to your club and patient enough for something to be built.

Alot of the solutions you're outlining would involve heavy micromanagement and tactical preparation, that perhaps is required, but that he has never advertised as part of the package you receive in having him as your manager.

You're right that Wenger is unlikely to change. That's why I, and several others, are giving serious thought to the idea of a new manager.

When you lose what you build and you assemble a squad of bargains who lack the talent, the compatibility, the understanding of the game to do what you want to do and you're reduced to merely going through the motions to obtain a champions league spot....it's difficult to motivate. For a romantic like Wenger it's difficult to change.

If he got players who could successfully understand and translate the way he approaches the game in his mind to the field he would honestly be much much better.

Our recent recruitment policy, though, contradicts this. Since 11/12 we've added a lot of 27+ year olds to the squad; guys like Mertesacker, Arteta and Cazorla. It's harder to educate these guys than younger players. He's gotten these players completely by choice, probably because the talented 19-23 year olds who could be taught a new approach have become more available to other clubs and more expensive. Instead of adapting to the times, he's chosen a cheaper alternative.

When you realise this is self-imposed, you lose a lot of sympathy for Wenger.

The manager you want sees players as tools in his toolbox that he's using to win a match , nothing more , nothing less. There's no sustainability in that, tactics will always become outdated, managers will always be outmaneuvered, but if you give players a style and an understanding of how they can manipulate that style to their advantage they will carry that and it will always give them something to fall back on.

Football runs in cycles. Just like how tactics become outdated, so do ideas and philosophies. Eventually, ideas stop working; players stop being receptive to them and the motivation techniques the manager uses.

There are two ways to overcome that: 1) you bring in a new manager to inject fresh ideas in the to club or 2) you regularly change up the squad in order to prevent complacency and players getting too comfortable. Arsenal have made several changes to their squad recently yet the same problems have persisted throughout. Considering that, can it really be the players' fault here?

For me, it looks more like Wenger's ideas are just not working well enough any more.

by furiouswindbottom Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:59 pm

The maddest stuff I see on here is the stuff about tactics and not using the players properly.

If you sell Messi and play your mum instead, it's not gonna be the same.

We sold Cesc and RVP.

We've got Santi and Giroud. I like both of them. Giroud is decent and Santi is very good.

RVP and Cesc are WORLD CLASS. Right through the spine of the team.

We've replaced Steak with burgers.

If we don't replace these players properly, we will not be having a great season now or anytime soon.

by Jay29 Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:27 pm

We sold Cesc and RVP.

We've got Santi and Giroud. I like both of them. Giroud is decent and Santi is very good.

RVP and Cesc are WORLD CLASS. Right through the spine of the team.

Individually, Cesc and van Persie are world class. Of course, Cazorla and Giroud aren't on that level.

But, to dismiss tactics completely here is mad. Cesc and van persie thrived because our system resolved around them. Do you think we would have gotten the most our of Cesc if we used him as a deep-lying playmaker? Do you think van Persie would've scored so many goals playing on the right wing, like some actually suggested at one point a couple of years ago?

Look at the situation now. Are we getting the most out of Cazorla playing him as a central playmaker? Are we getting the most out of Podolski by playing him on the left wing? Are we getting the most out of Giroud by not providing him with the right type or service? It's all tactics related. Yes, there is only so far these players can tkae us - none of them are of the level of Cesc or van Persie - but at the same time we're not getting the maximum we can from them.

Good players can look rubbish in the wrong system just as much as a good system can make average players look better. It's a very important factor to consider when assessing the quality and contribution of the players.

by Le Samourai Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:30 pm

You underestimate the strain a revolving door of players has on what he's trying to do. i understand you think his approach is wrong , but you at least understand that it's lack of success isn't exactly down to him.

by Jay29 Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:09 pm

I understand that there things outside or not totally within Wenger's control. Things like the stadium debt restraining finances and the amount of money we can pay players, injuries derailing seasons and holding back players from progressing and a couple of player being a bit too focused on money; all stuff he can't really control.

However, the effect this revolving door has can be lessened if you plan for most eventualities and in recent windows I've seen enough evidence to suggest there's been a distinct lack of a constructive plan to get together the type of squad Wenger wants. We also know he handicaps himself by giving average players high wages, making them difficult to sell and making us incapable of paying better players the sort of wages they want or deserve.

Principally, I don't think Wenger's approach is wrong, but I feel it's currently leading to too many problems and not enough solutions.

by 6unner Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:21 pm

Le Samourai wrote:You underestimate the strain a revolving door of players has on what he's trying to do. i understand you think his approach is wrong , but you at least understand that it's lack of success isn't exactly down to him.

Why the revolving door of players though?

Wengers socialist wage scale. Rewarding average or below average players.

Wengers failed youth project that drove players like Henry and others away.

AFC's fetish with trying to make it seem as though CL football is a trophy.

Players want to win silverware. They want to earn a wage that resembles that of their peers. They don't want to see others of lesser quality cashing checks the size of theirs. They want to see the team being upgraded when and where it needs to be. They don't want to see the best players sold and replaced with less quality.

Tactics or personnel, Wenger has his hands all over it.

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