Pele's Superiority and Inferiority to Messi

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Post by Be/\/ceCALI Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:15 pm

norton wrote:While Pele or Maradona would traipse through the defensive marking of today. Messi would have no chance against the defensive marking of Pele's or Maradona's eras. They would be knocked off the ball before they would have a chance to use their skill. Just watch what Gentile did to Maradona during the 1982 WC. Maradona was a bull and Gentile did not let him take a dribble with the ball.

Rules were changed to protect attacking players, that's just a fact. Hence, attacking players had to endure much more duress in the past and have it much easier today.

While both Messi and C. Ronaldo are intelligent and are skilled, it is questionable whether they would have the ability and mental strength to sustain the constant defender aggression which was dominant in past eras, that today would result in yellow and red cards.

I don't get how you can say Pele or Maradona would destroy today's defenders, then go on to say Messi and C.Ronaldo would be useless. Maybe this would be true if you just threw them into a one-off game with great defenders of the past, but if they played in that era, they would also adapt to differences of the game back then, like all great players of the game would.

Like Spencer said, it's really the brain that gives the BEST players the advantage over the great players.

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Post by Lord Spencer Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:16 pm

Sorry, but a "simple" five yard assist might not be as simple as you think.

You have a running player, and defenders. When to pass, and the wight you put into the ball both are very important factors. Professional players fluff such "simple" passes in a daily basis. Also, most of Messi's and Maradona's assists are such "simple" passes. Intelligent players would always do the safest and most effective pass instead of the fanciest (ala Quaresma's fluffed back heel cross).

And really, a facepalm.

The classic "I face palm therefore I am right".

Only in the internet.
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Post by Lord Spencer Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:20 pm

Be/\/ceCALI wrote:I edited by above post a little bit just to add a few things. I agree that after the '50s, it was all downhill for us (mainly because of the soviet takeover and the big issues that it brought) and uphill for Brazil in football development.

I also agree with you that '60s were dominated by SA. The only thing I didn't agree with is : "a) The advent of total football, which is really just a Dutch interpretation to SA (especially Brazillian) football."

I think Hungary of the '50s was the original "total football" team and layed this foundation down for the future, where it evolved further. If you've watched this team play you might agree. Maybe you have seen them, i don't know. I've watched Brazil of the late 60's and 1970, my grandpa had all the tapes Smile

I would actually agree with you on your point. That Hungarian team would really qualify as the first total football team. Unfortunate that they did not give it a name. Things with names are more easily remembered. It is also poetically significant that both that Hungarian team and the Dutch were both beaten by the resilient Germans Razz

I also own a lot of videos, most in grainy VCR footage, and many are not in a watchable state.
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Post by Ganso Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:39 pm

worms wrote:Pele was just a goalscorer who scored at a time when the goals per game ratio was double what it is now.And his goal record counts bogus goals like goals he scored in the army and against unprofessional teams.

Show me a video of Pele producing passes and showcasing vision like Maradona or even Messi.
Pele played many times as a legit #10 because he was not all about goalscoring.Just because his videos are all about goals doesn't mean he wasnt a creative player.I also have a feeling people think hes some type of dull CF,he was an amazing dribbler.You all need to download more pre 2000 football matches
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Post by worms Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:28 pm

I know Pele was a good dribbler.

Also how can you say Peles pass for Alberto Carlos's goal was as good as Pirlos assist for Grosso?

Really?

If you seen the exact same pass that Pele did by an average player playing in the EPL would you say WOW what a pass? No of course you wouldn't but because it was part of a great team goal and because it's Pele then you get people hyping it up as if it's one of the greatest passes ever or something when it just isn't.You wouldn't need good vision to play that pass either,it was the obvious option and he had plenty of time to see it.
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Post by Lord Spencer Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:01 pm

worms wrote:I know Pele was a good dribbler.

Also how can you say Peles pass for Alberto Carlos's goal was as good as Pirlos assist for Grosso?

Really?

If you seen the exact same pass that Pele did by an average player playing in the EPL would you say WOW what a pass? No of course you wouldn't but because it was part of a great team goal and because it's Pele then you get people hyping it up as if it's one of the greatest passes ever or something when it just isn't.You wouldn't need good vision to play that pass either,it was the obvious option and he had plenty of time to see it.

I will agree you in that the pass is not the same as Pirlo's, that was a pass of another level. Especially emotionally. However, it is not a simple path by any stretch. A simple path would be to a static player. Predicting the movement of other players require vision. The fact is, 90% of great player's game is doing really basic stuff. It is just that their understanding of the game is so advanced that they do a lot of damage with the most basic of weapons.

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Post by DuringTheWar Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:05 pm

good stuff, but it's pretty obvious to me when one player is more talented than another from a different generation.
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Post by norton Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:59 pm

Be/\/ceCALI wrote:
norton wrote:While Pele or Maradona would traipse through the defensive marking of today. Messi would have no chance against the defensive marking of Pele's or Maradona's eras. They would be knocked off the ball before they would have a chance to use their skill. Just watch what Gentile did to Maradona during the 1982 WC. Maradona was a bull and Gentile did not let him take a dribble with the ball.

Rules were changed to protect attacking players, that's just a fact. Hence, attacking players had to endure much more duress in the past and have it much easier today.

While both Messi and C. Ronaldo are intelligent and are skilled, it is questionable whether they would have the ability and mental strength to sustain the constant defender aggression which was dominant in past eras, that today would result in yellow and red cards.

I don't get how you can say Pele or Maradona would destroy today's defenders, then go on to say Messi and C.Ronaldo would be useless.

Let's take your two questions one at a time and logically:

1. If Pele and Maradona had the protection granted to today's attackers and could be sure that they would rarely be hacked from behind, kicked mercilessly and/or pulled down (kicked when they didn't have the ball when the ref wasn't looking to weaken their resolve) would they do better or worse?

2. If attackers today did not have the protection granted today to attackers and would be sure they would be constantly kicked, hacked from behind, kicked, pulled down (kicked when they didn't have the ball when the ref wasn't looking to weaken their resolve) would they do better or worse?

I think you know the answer. Fact is, Pele and Maradona were unique phenomena that were able to sustain the violence of the times and were able to excel.

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Post by M99 Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:46 am

Be/\/ceCALI wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:
Second, many defenders were in fact scrubs, and to compensate would try to break their opponents legs. South Americans invented the dive particularly because of the brutality of European defenders.

That the whole of the 60 is thought to be inferior to modern football is not relevant to Pele's rating. He is not rated according to our football; he is rated according to his football.

The change in football makes it impossible to compare players of different generations. However, we can rest assured that if we put all these players in the same generation that we will have orgasms upon orgasms from their play. What is common in them is not the physical attribute of their game, but rather the mental one. All of these players are the epitome of football intelligence.

First off, great post.

Secondly, do you have a source for the part in blue? I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's hard for me to believe that.

I think the part I bolded really highlights your point, and it's a great point that I agree with. It's impossible to really say who the greatest player(s) ever are. The greatest player ever will always be a subjective topic - but usually it's judged on awards, accomplishments, and CONSISTENCY(which is often overlooked)

All in all, i'll say it again: fantastic post, man Pele's Superiority and Inferiority to Messi - Page 2 3176931354

It's a well known fact that defenders would try to break Pele's legs as there was no other way to stop him, ask anyone who followed Pele's career and they will say so. Best example is 1966 World Cup, poor guy was in tears and vowed never to play a World Cup again.
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Post by The Messiah Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:58 am

Who is this spencer guy, I never noticed him.

But nevertheless pele is only jelly of Messi
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Post by norton Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:13 pm

I suspect that most who believe Messi is in the same league as Maradona or Pele are younger people. You have to have had the opportunity of seeing many generations of players before one can have the breadth of experience to be able to make a reasoned comparison. I remember when people were touting Van Basten and then the real Ronaldo as better than Pele and Maradona (I was one of them), now with more experience, I realize I was mistaken.

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Post by Harmonica Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:17 pm

norton wrote:I suspect that most who believe Messi is in the same league as Maradona or Pele are younger people. You have to have had the opportunity of seeing many generations of players before one can have the breadth of experience to be able to make a reasoned comparison. I remember when people were touting Van Basten and then the real Ronaldo as better than Pele and Maradona (I was one of them), now with more experience, I realize I was mistaken.
I guess 90 year old is still young. Very Happy

These say Messi is already the best ever:

Ruud van Nistelrooy
Patrick Kluivert
Diego Simeone
Albert Luque
Willem van Hanegem
Ronald de Boer
Josip Simunic
Harry Redknapp
Juan Antonio Anguela
Luis Suarez Miramontes
Enrique Orizaola (90 years)
Enrique Dominguez
Hugo Sotil
Mircea Lucescu
Antonio Cassano
Ivan Helguera
Domenico Criscito
Albert Ferrer
Osvaldo Ardiles
Bernd Schuster
Gary Neville
Gary Lineker
Joey Barton
Miku
Ray Hudson
John Terry
Adriano Galliani
Ruud Gullit
Graeme Souness
Terry Venables
Wayne Rooney
Tom Huddlestone
Arsene Wenger
Michael Owen
Roy Keane
Rudi Voller
Jose Luis Chilavert
Gerry Armstrong
Carlos Bianchi
Peter Schmeichel
Julio Alberto
Gabriel Milito
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Post by The Franchise Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:37 pm

Ruud Guillt? I believe he says for him, Maradona is the best. I heard him say that many times.

Maybe his opinion has changed?
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Post by Harmonica Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:44 pm

^ It was after the 5 goals against Leverkusen

Gary LINEKER - “SOUNESS, GULLIT, VENABLES and now ROONEY agree MESSI is the best they have seen. He plays a game to which we are not familiar.”
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Post by The Franchise Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:52 pm

Knew he would come around eventually Laughing
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Post by norton Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:35 pm

Actually, Gullit never said anything of the sort. In fact, as recently as July of 2012 he had Messi below Rivaldo with Maradona, Pele, Zidane and a few others ahead.

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Post by norton Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:38 pm

What he said was:


"Diego Maradona is the best ever in my opinion," Gullit said. "I never saw Pele play live but I have seen and played against Maradona, he is the greatest. Now Lionel Messi and Ronaldo are the two best."

i.e. the emphasis is the word "now".

http://www.soccerway.com/news/2012/July/29/gullit-barca-still-with-lots-to-prove/

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Post by Harmonica Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:30 pm

Well, Gullit seems to change his opinion a lot. But my point still about the age stands. It's same if somebody said, "I suspect that most who believe Messi isn't the same league as Maradona or Pele are older people, who overhype and romanticize the past. In my time football was still football." etc Everybody has their opinion, it's subjective.

Never saw Pele (who has?), but I saw Maradona, and for me Messi has been better two years now, I'm just glad plenty of people are starting to see it now.
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Post by Lord Spencer Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:55 pm

The problem with discussing any two players however is in comparing them in two different circumstances. Maradano never played for a dominant team like Messi plays for Barca. And then the quality between teams was much lower than they are now.

Even though, Messi shouldn't be judged badly because he plays for the better team. IMO, Messi is showing the world that he is among the bracket of the greats.

Again, comparing players from different eras is not something people should do. It is not fair for both players and not fair for both sets of fans. If people cannot get their jollies unless they compare penises (and in this case not even their own) then they should go watch tennis, boxing or something that is not tennis.
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Post by norton Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:56 pm

i It's same if somebody said, "I suspect that most who believe Messi isn't the same league as Maradona or Pele are older people, who overhype and romanticize the past. In my time football was still football." etc

Not quite. What I said was that when a person has had the opportunity to experience the performance of players over a longer period of time, more generations of players, that person has a larger sample to judge.

There were great players before Maradona and Pele. Those that have that larger perspective hardly ever say that Eusebio, Di Stefano, Puskas, Cruyff, Rivaldo, Ronaldo Zidane etc. were better than Pele and Maradona. Those two players from different eras, were just a phenomena and we have not seen players like that since those two.

Nothing romantic about it it's just human nature that when the perspective is limited, one tends to consider what they know within that more limited perspective to the exclusion of that in the wider perspective.

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Post by Harmonica Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:44 pm

norton wrote:Not quite. What I said was that when a person has had the opportunity to experience the performance of players over a longer period of time, more generations of players, that person has a larger sample to judge.

There were great players before Maradona and Pele. Those that have that larger perspective hardly ever say that Eusebio, Di Stefano, Puskas, Cruyff, Rivaldo, Ronaldo Zidane etc. were better than Pele and Maradona. Those two players from different eras, were just a phenomena and we have not seen players like that since those two.

Nothing romantic about it it's just human nature that when the perspective is limited, one tends to consider what they know within that more limited perspective to the exclusion of that in the wider perspective.
Well I've seen better player than Maradona, and that's Messi. List that I provided has plenty of people who saw or played with Maradona or Pele. Also Di Stefano was actually voted above Maradona by IFFHS at Fifa player of century.

That's why using age as an excuse, "everyone who were old enough to saw they were better" doesn't work.
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Post by Harmonica Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:47 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:Again, comparing players from different eras is not something people should do. It is not fair for both players and not fair for both sets of fans. If people cannot get their jollies unless they compare penises (and in this case not even their own) then they should go watch tennis, boxing or something that is not tennis.
What's wrong with comparing and how is it unfair? I've read your OP and I pretty much agree, but it's all subjective anyway. Also you would be wrong if you think people don't compare the greats the same way in other sports.
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Post by Lord Spencer Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:15 pm

Harmonica wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:Again, comparing players from different eras is not something people should do. It is not fair for both players and not fair for both sets of fans. If people cannot get their jollies unless they compare penises (and in this case not even their own) then they should go watch tennis, boxing or something that is not tennis.
What's wrong with comparing and how is it unfair? I've read your OP and I pretty much agree, but it's all subjective anyway. Also you would be wrong if you think people don't compare the greats the same way in other sports.

It would be unfair to the teams those greats played at. Football is a team sport, which is why each single player's "greatness" comes as much from his teammates as from himself. And while many other sports compare their greats, few sports rival Football in its complexity and reliance on a team. That is why I said people who are bent on comparing talents should watch Tennis and boxing instead, both are not team sports and thus comparing the players is a actually more fair.
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Post by Harmonica Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:23 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
Lord Spencer wrote:Again, comparing players from different eras is not something people should do. It is not fair for both players and not fair for both sets of fans. If people cannot get their jollies unless they compare penises (and in this case not even their own) then they should go watch tennis, boxing or something that is not tennis.
What's wrong with comparing and how is it unfair? I've read your OP and I pretty much agree, but it's all subjective anyway. Also you would be wrong if you think people don't compare the greats the same way in other sports.

It would be unfair to the teams those greats played at. Football is a team sport, which is why each single player's "greatness" comes as much from his teammates as from himself. And while many other sports compare their greats, few sports rival Football in its complexity and reliance on a team. That is why I said people who are bent on comparing talents should watch Tennis and boxing instead, both are not team sports and thus comparing the players is a actually more fair.
Yes I agree, but I don't think that should stop people comparing players individually. I'm not saying Messi is better because he has three Champions Leagues and four Ballon d'Or's, it's the same as with World Cup the other way around. For me Messi is just individually better.

And I agree with the team aspect, but it's only one variable in the situation, in others also there is a normal evolution aspect of the sport, which will always be at the heart of the debate. One way or the other.
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Post by norton Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:42 pm

Harmonica wrote:
norton wrote:Not quite. What I said was that when a person has had the opportunity to experience the performance of players over a longer period of time, more generations of players, that person has a larger sample to judge.

There were great players before Maradona and Pele. Those that have that larger perspective hardly ever say that Eusebio, Di Stefano, Puskas, Cruyff, Rivaldo, Ronaldo Zidane etc. were better than Pele and Maradona. Those two players from different eras, were just a phenomena and we have not seen players like that since those two.

Nothing romantic about it it's just human nature that when the perspective is limited, one tends to consider what they know within that more limited perspective to the exclusion of that in the wider perspective.
Well I've seen better player than Maradona, and that's Messi. List that I provided has plenty of people who saw or played with Maradona or Pele. Also Di Stefano was actually voted above Maradona by IFFHS at Fifa player of century.

That's why using age as an excuse, "everyone who were old enough to saw they were better" doesn't work.

Age is not used as an excuse, just a fact. A restaurant critic that has only eaten at Chinese restaurants, may claim that a particular restaurant is the best in the world, but he is excluding other cuisines.

Racehorses are even a better analogy. There have been similar advances in sports medicine, in training etc. for racehorses. As new champions come up there is great excitement and Northern Dancer, Sea Biscuit, and others are said to be the best ever for a while by younger trainers and affacionados, but after a few years almost everyone goes back to Man O War as the best ever, a horse that raced in the early 1920s.

Who besides the IFFHS puts Di Stefano above Pele or Maradona? Very few. In fact, almost anyone will rank Puskas above Di Stefano.

You are a Barcelona supporter and certainly it is understandable that you will claim that Messi is the best ever. It is human nature. But, Pele and Maradona are players that almost alone dragged their national teams to victory in the World Cup, I don't see Messi having that level of ability. Maradona dragged what was a team with mostly second division personnel to Serie A titles. I don't think Messi would have near that ability.

It is better to make comparative judgements with players of the past after an active player's career ends.

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Post by Harmonica Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:51 pm

norton wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
norton wrote:Not quite. What I said was that when a person has had the opportunity to experience the performance of players over a longer period of time, more generations of players, that person has a larger sample to judge.

There were great players before Maradona and Pele. Those that have that larger perspective hardly ever say that Eusebio, Di Stefano, Puskas, Cruyff, Rivaldo, Ronaldo Zidane etc. were better than Pele and Maradona. Those two players from different eras, were just a phenomena and we have not seen players like that since those two.

Nothing romantic about it it's just human nature that when the perspective is limited, one tends to consider what they know within that more limited perspective to the exclusion of that in the wider perspective.
Well I've seen better player than Maradona, and that's Messi. List that I provided has plenty of people who saw or played with Maradona or Pele. Also Di Stefano was actually voted above Maradona by IFFHS at Fifa player of century.

That's why using age as an excuse, "everyone who were old enough to saw they were better" doesn't work.

Age is not used as an excuse, just a fact. A restaurant critic that has only eaten at Chinese restaurants, may claim that a particular restaurant is the best in the world, but he is excluding other cuisines.

Racehorses are even a better analogy. There have been similar advances in sports medicine, in training etc. for racehorses. As new champions come up there is great excitement and Northern Dancer, Sea Biscuit, and others are said to be the best ever for a while by younger trainers and affacionados, but after a few years almost everyone goes back to Man O War as the best ever, a horse that raced in the early 1920s.

Who besides the IFFHS puts Di Stefano above Pele or Maradona? Very few. In fact, almost anyone will rank Puskas above Di Stefano.

You are a Barcelona supporter and certainly it is understandable that you will claim that Messi is the best ever. It is human nature. But, Pele and Maradona are players that almost alone dragged their national teams to victory in the World Cup, I don't see Messi having that level of ability. Maradona dragged what was a team with mostly second division personnel to Serie A titles. I don't think Messi would have near that ability.

It is better to make comparative judgements with players of the past after an active player's career ends.
And people who saw Maradona may claim that Messi or Di Stefano are better than him. Or are you saying that the list provided didn't see him, or specialist panel in IFFHS was full of teenagers?

Your Barcelona reference makes the second assumption besides the age factor, you just don't like people stating their opinion if they differ from yours, so you attack with these excuses. Btw I was an Argentina fan (because of Maradona), still am, far before I became a Barca fan.
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