Re: Tactics and Formations

by Red Alert Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:38 am

El Jefe wrote:
McAgger wrote:
Red Alert wrote:
He may have been in the past, but he's definitely not any better now. Agger is doing a Reina atm. Loyal, love him as a person, great off the pitch, but not producing on the pitch; he's living off reputation rather than on merit. He's been close to average since Clarke has left.
okay, who are you trying to fool?
I know everyone is entitled to an opinion but he's becoming a bit comical now.

This is coming from a man that attacks the way Lucas Leiva walks ffs.

Are you honestly telling me Agger is playing the at the level he should be playing? Cause if you are then you've clearly not seen him at the top of his game. Playing poor for a year when the system is supposed to actually bring his quality's out is not down to bad form, it's a loss of quality. He can't defend, I honestly don't understand why people are surprised of this. He's basically our Vermaelen... lmao

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:ynwa, i think we just cant judge Agger like that right now..is he being sarcastic again

Sarcastic how?

by El Jefe Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:43 am

I don't attack Lucas. I just think he's rubbish.

Your 3 at the back without Agger vs 4 at the back with Agger doesn't explain why our record has always been better with him than without him, even before we played 3 CBs regularly?
Also before this season the two times we played 3 at the back that stick in my mind are Chelsea away and Stoke at home early in 2011, we won both games. Guess who played in both? Agger.

by Red Alert Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:28 am

And I think the way Agger is going, he will be rubbish if he continues to play the way he has. He's lost quality, or is in the worst form of his life. Does that mean I'm comical? Really? After all your digs at Lucas? Laughing

3 at the back won't ever work for us in the PL. It just won't. Every team either plays 3 in the middle (which nullifies our game) or plays down the flanks where they exploit the space between the full backs and the defenders. It's rubbish, and it will continue to be rubbish.

Agger hasn't been himself lately (just as Reina was) and the signs are there. I'm really hoping he turns it around with the competition around him and he decides to up his game to get the best out of him. The amount of people that actually consider him world class today is ridiculous as he has been poor.

by El Jefe Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:21 pm

I have digs at Lucas because he's never been good enough for Liverpool and never will be. Agger has played at the highest level for us, he's showed that he's capable of playing in good teams. Since Lucas has been a starter we've been awful and 3 managers have been sacked. City and Barca have shown interest in Agger whilst Lucas has only ever attracted Stoke, who we turned down because they wouldn't even go above £5 million for him.

The comparison between those two is ridiculous.

by Red Alert Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:10 am

El Jefe wrote:I have digs at Lucas because he's never been good enough for Liverpool and never will be. Agger has played at the highest level for us, he's showed that he's capable of playing in good teams. Since Lucas has been a starter we've been awful and 3 managers have been sacked. City and Barca have shown interest in Agger whilst Lucas has only ever attracted Stoke, who we turned down because they wouldn't even go above £5 million for him.

The comparison between those two is ridiculous.

Ha. I give up.

by El Jefe Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:45 pm

Coming from the one who used a 40 million bid from Arsenal as a comeback to a 4 million bid from Stoke?

Agger has played for us at the highest level. We defend and play far better with Agger than without, despite there being several other options. Why is that difficult to understand?

by Red Alert Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:23 am

Oh please. Madrid spent 80m+ for Bale. Is Bale a better player than Ronaldo? I mean, he went for more, he must be superior. A price tag on a player means f*ck all in terms of comparison qualities. Man City showed interest in Agger but never put a bid in, they only put a bid in for Skrtel. Barcelona put a cheap bid in for Agger before Daniel told Rodgers he wants to stay at Liverpool because he's settled and that fended away Barcelona. Is he not that great because Barca tried to get him for cheap too? Is Henderson the worst player Liverpool has ever seen because we tried to offload him in a part exchange for Dempsey? It's a stupid debate and has no meaning to it. Furthermore, why not mention the interest from Napoli for Lucas and only bring Stoke into it? Napoli is doing alright, no? Or would that have defeated your argument?

Lucas has also played for us at the highest level. We're better when Lucas plays too as he gives us balance, nothing our other midfielders can provide. "Since Lucas has been a starter we've been awful and 3 managers have been sacked." Agger and Lucas became "first team" footballers at Liverpool around the same time. So how has Agger played in "better" teams? Why is Agger not responsible for 3 managers getting sacked, and it's Lucas getting all the blame? To do that (basically imply Lucas was responsible for 3 managers getting sacked) has to be the most intellectually deficient post I've seen on here.

Lucas has also been pivotal in our last 2-3 seasons, arguably our best midfielder in that time (when Gerrard was adapting to playing deeper, out of form, playing with injuries etc) in those 2-3 seasons too so not too sure what you're on about when you he's never been good enough. He's started for EVERY manager and the opinions on him are quite high from management (including from the Brazilian NT) he's played under so it must mean he's not too bad, eh. He was also the reason for our downfall under Dalglish, our whole season fell apart (we were in contention for the top 4 before he injured himself) when Lucas did his knee...

He hasn't been playing to his standards this season granted, but not too many people have when we take into the account the new system Rodgers has tried to implement. The only two that have benefited from it are SAS, really. The rest are just doing "enough" rather than performing to their highest performance ability.

by stevieg8 Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:53 am

The performance stat is an especially poor one, because outside factors play a major role in that result. Case in point: your inevitable response to the fact that our points per game over the last three seasons is almost a full .5 better when Lucas plays than when he doesn't. The response is so easy, I can say it for you: he's been the only DM of any form in the team over that time, so of course we win more games with him than with Jay Spearing. At the same time, our win % is higher without Suarez than with him, yet that certainly doesn't mean were a better team without. I agree these stats aren't helpful, but at least be consistent and don't apply them in Agger's case.

by El Jefe Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:22 pm

So many misinterpretations, so many lies. Don't even know where to start.

"It's a stupid debate and has no meaning to it." - It's a stupid debate when you make it stupid. The fact that the only bid we've had for Lucas was £4 million from Stoke, whereas Agger has attracted two of the most powerful teams in the world speaks volumes.

"the interest from Napoli for Lucas" - There is/was no interest. A quick google search of "Lucas Leiva Napoli" shows results from the metro, albawaba, eyefootball and forzaitalianfootball. Great sources!

"Lucas has also played for us at the highest level" - That's a lie. He has never been a consistent starter for us throughout an entire season at a high level. He only ever became a starter in the 09/10 season, since then we've been poor so he hasn't played at the highest level.

"Agger and Lucas became "first team" footballers at Liverpool around the same time." - That's a lie. Lucas became a starter in 09/10. Most of his appearances before that were substitute appearances or in matches against poor teams. Agger's appearance numbers would have been much higher if it wasn't for injuries, don't forget he missed pretty much the whole of the 07/08 season.
Also, Lucas only became a starter in 09/10 after Alonso was sold and his replacement couldn't get fit. The plan wasn't to promote Lucas, he was in the team out of necessity.

"basically imply Lucas was responsible for 3 managers getting sacked" - Another lie. There are many factors, Lucas is simply one of them.

"arguably our best midfielder in that time" - He's been awful. Stop kidding yourself.

"He's started for EVERY manager and the opinions on him are quite high from management" - Hardly an achievement considering how bad we've been. The only other DM we've had is Spearing.

"He was also the reason for our downfall under Dalglish" - No he wasn't. Our form dipped when he got injured, but interestingly it PLUMMETED after AGGER got injured. We lost 5 out of 6 after Agger's injury iirc.

by Red Alert Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:53 am

You're unbearable, you really are.

That's a lie. He has never been a consistent starter for us throughout an entire season at a high level. He only ever became a starter in the 09/10 season, since then we've been poor so he hasn't played at the highest level.

So the team has been poor for "many factors" yet Lucas gets no recognition for his performances during that time? You are aware since he's been a starter, the likes of Agger, Skrtel, Gerrard, Suarez, Johnson and Reina (who's now gone) were guaranteed starters too. Have Johnson and Suarez never played at the highest level for Liverpool, then? We've been horrible since they've been here and we haven't been playing in the CL so they couldn't have played at the highest level using your own logic either, yes?

Also certain that Lucas won a player of the season in 2010/11 and was regarded as one of the best midfielders in the league dominating whoever he played (including "CL" teams in England). Never played at the highest level? Joke.

That's a lie. Lucas became a starter in 09/10. Most of his appearances before that were substitute appearances or in matches against poor teams. Agger's appearance numbers would have been much higher if it wasn't for injuries, don't forget he missed pretty much the whole of the 07/08 season.
Also, Lucas only became a starter in 09/10 after Alonso was sold and his replacement couldn't get fit. The plan wasn't to promote Lucas, he was in the team out of necessity.

And Agger ALSO became first team in 09/10. Skrtel and Carragher were always preferred over DAgger in 2008/09. Agger had to play at left back to get games in. And before you say he was injured for majority of the season, Skrtel and Carragher got the nod when Agger was fit to play.

Lucas came into the team out of necessity? Maybe, maybe not. Still think it would have been different if Rafa played Gerrard in the Alonso role and AA in the SS role that 2009/10 would have been different. That's probably what Rafa had in mind before AA struggled with injuries. :facepalm:

Anyway, regardless of how he came into the squad, he was one of our better performers when he played. Take your hating glasses off. lol

Another lie. There are many factors, Lucas is simply one of them.

Please tell me how Lucas was a factor in any of the 3 managers getting sacked.

He's been awful. Stop kidding yourself.

This season? Sure. So has 3/4 of the squad. Rodgers this season has been very very average in terms of tactics during the course of this season. Doesn't really matter as we're still second.

Hardly an achievement considering how bad we've been. The only other DM we've had is Spearing.

Seemed to play quite a bit when we had Mascherano as well. Probably helps your point, but it should be said anyway, Spearing was never a DM. Explain to me how he got caps for Brazil and was pivotal for Brazil's NT? They had the likes of Sandro, Gustavo etc in reserve.

No he wasn't. Our form dipped when he got injured, but interestingly it PLUMMETED after AGGER got injured. We lost 5 out of 6 after Agger's injury iirc.

We never won a midfield battle the day Lucas got injured. Not one. Agger also came back into the team after his injury, no? Why was our form still relegation material even months after he came back?

by El Jefe Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:56 pm

Why would I give him recognition for poor performances? Even during his best season he had just as many bad games as poor games.

He played really well (by his standards) against City and Chelsea in 10/11. People forget that:
1) For previous DMs like Masch and Didi, they would have been normal matches. For Lucas it was made out to be a Busquets level performance.
2) Charlie Adam was just as good in those games. Adam was actually man of the match against Chelsea away. After his true quality started to show and people realised he was putting in poor performances we got rid of him. Why do people make excuses for Lucas?

What most people see as 1 good season, even though it was very inconsistent, doesn't mean he's played at the highest level. Remember we finished like 7th, so that's NOT a high level.

And no, Suarez and Johnson haven't played at the highest level for Liverpool. Suarez, individually, has played at a high level in terms of performance but not competition, Lucas has done neither, that's the difference.

Most of our players have played a part in managers getting sacked. Lucas more than most as he's been awful.

You're saying Rafa "probably" had something in mind and then face palming me? You're guessing about what someone you've never met thinks and then face palming someone for assuming differently to you? Neither of us know for certain, but assuming that a £20 million central midfielder brought in immediately after selling one for £30 million makes much more sense than moving one of the best midfielders on the planet at the time out of the position in which he had been destroying teams for the past couple of years.

I've already explained why he had to play next to, and be carried by, Mascherano. Necessity. We had no depth in that squad and when Alonso's replacement got injured we had to turn to Lucas.

And honestly I haven't got a clue why he was ever in the Brazil squad. Just like I haven't got a clue why he got in it this season because he's been playing even worse. Bear in mind that even Andre Santos got in that Brazil squad. Looking back, Lucas played the majority of his games from Brazil in 2010 and 2011, when they were managed by Mano Menezes. The same manager Lucas broke through at Gremio under. Picking his favourites probably. And just like every other manager Lucas has been a starter under, he had poor results and was sacked. (Bit of a theme here, don't you think?)

About Agger, I think he came back off the bench against Villa and Blackburn (1 draw, 1 win). Then started against Everton at Wembley (Win). Started against West Brom and Norwich (1 loss, 1 win). Didn't play against Fulham (loss). Played in the 2 games against Chelsea (1 win, 1 loss). And finally against Swansea (loss). That's 4 wins, 3 losses and 1 draw. 50% win record, much better than 5 losses and 2 wins without him.

by McAgger Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:40 pm

Red Alert wrote:You're unbearable, you really are.

That's a lie. He has never been a consistent starter for us throughout an entire season at a high level. He only ever became a starter in the 09/10 season, since then we've been poor so he hasn't played at the highest level.
So the team has been poor for "many factors" yet Lucas gets no recognition for his performances during that time? You are aware since he's been a starter, the likes of Agger, Skrtel, Gerrard, Suarez, Johnson and Reina (who's now gone) were guaranteed starters too. Have Johnson and Suarez never played at the highest level for Liverpool, then? We've been horrible since they've been here and we haven't been playing in the CL so they couldn't have played at the highest level using your own logic either, yes?

Also certain that Lucas won a player of the season in 2010/11 and was regarded as one of the best midfielders in the league dominating whoever he played (including "CL" teams in England). Never played at the highest level? Joke.

That's a lie. Lucas became a starter in 09/10. Most of his appearances before that were substitute appearances or in matches against poor teams. Agger's appearance numbers would have been much higher if it wasn't for injuries, don't forget he missed pretty much the whole of the 07/08 season.
Also, Lucas only became a starter in 09/10 after Alonso was sold and his replacement couldn't get fit. The plan wasn't to promote Lucas, he was in the team out of necessity.
And Agger ALSO became first team in 09/10. Skrtel and Carragher were always preferred over DAgger in 2008/09. Agger had to play at left back to get games in. And before you say he was injured for majority of the season, Skrtel and Carragher got the nod when Agger was fit to play.

Lucas came into the team out of necessity? Maybe, maybe not. Still think it would have been different if Rafa played Gerrard in the Alonso role and AA in the SS role that 2009/10 would have been different. That's probably what Rafa had in mind before AA struggled with injuries. :facepalm:Anyway, regardless of how he came into the squad, he was one of our better performers when he played. Take your hating glasses off. lol

Another lie. There are many factors, Lucas is simply one of them.
Please tell me how Lucas was a factor in any of the 3 managers getting sacked.

He's been awful. Stop kidding yourself.
This season? Sure. So has 3/4 of the squad. Rodgers this season has been very very average in terms of tactics during the course of this season. Doesn't really matter as we're still second.

Hardly an achievement considering how bad we've been. The only other DM we've had is Spearing.
Seemed to play quite a bit when we had Mascherano as well. Probably helps your point, but it should be said anyway, Spearing was never a DM. Explain to me how he got caps for Brazil and was pivotal for Brazil's NT? They had the likes of Sandro, Gustavo etc in reserve.

No he wasn't. Our form dipped when he got injured, but interestingly it PLUMMETED after AGGER got injured. We lost 5 out of 6 after Agger's injury iirc.
We never won a midfield battle the day Lucas got injured. Not one. Agger also came back into the team after his injury, no? Why was our form still relegation material even months after he came back?

No offense but pot calling the kettle black

WTF are you on about? Agger established himself in the first team in 2006-07. He was a main part of our run to Athens. In fact for me he was the player of the season along side Alonso that season. He was still a starter in the 2007-08 season and looked like an absolute beast in the 6 games he played. But then unfortunately for all of us injury hit him and he missed the whole season. He came back from injury in 2008-09 with Skrtel/Carra both being exceptional so obviously Rafa didn't give him a chance. But then Skrtel got injured and Agger took his chance whenever presented. Injuries riddled him from there on out, he was injured way too often to be able to keep a spot in the team. But then he broke through again in 2009-10.

by Helmer Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:25 pm

What i hate to see is, there is no build up play among our midfielders. Either there is through ball to our strikers or mostly straight vertical balls to front three or a howrizontal wayward passing to other MF. But there are no small diagonal short passes among each other, making small wuick runs. Actually we do his against small teams like we did against Fulham for eg. but we struggle to do it against top6 really. I think we should try to do it also against big sides, that will help us to relieve the pressure, keep the ball and not suddenly lose the ball from where our defenders get exposed far too often.

by Red Alert Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:46 am

McAgger wrote:]No offense but pot calling the kettle black

WTF are you on about? Agger established himself in the first team in 2006-07. He was a main part of our run to Athens. In fact for me he was the player of the season along side Alonso that season. He was still a starter in the 2007-08 season and looked like an absolute beast in the 6 games he played. But then unfortunately for all of us injury hit him and he missed the whole season. He came back from injury in 2008-09 with Skrtel/Carra both being exceptional so obviously Rafa didn't give him a chance. But then Skrtel got injured and Agger took his chance whenever presented. Injuries riddled him from there on out, he was injured way too often to be able to keep a spot in the team. But then he broke through again in 2009-10.

Are you really going to tell me Lucas has NEVER been good enough for Liverpool? And he's never been consistent? Lmao. And I'm sorry if I've lost all 'respect' from this section if I don't believe Daniel Agger isn't as good as he used to be and is looking like he's on the decline. (Again, as a DEFENDER, I'm quite happy with him as a footballer, but he can't exactly defend as he used to anymore.) There's a few other things we disagree with, but I know Agger's the main one.

He was great in Europe and was first team in the CL, but he was rotated with Sami in the league.

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:What i hate to see is, there is no build up play among our midfielders. Either there is through ball to our strikers or mostly straight vertical balls to front three or a howrizontal wayward passing to other MF. But there are no small diagonal short passes among each other, making small wuick runs. Actually we do his against small teams like we did against Fulham for eg. but we struggle to do it against top6 really. I think we should try to do it also against big sides, that will help us to relieve the pressure, keep the ball and not suddenly lose the ball from where our defenders get exposed far too often.

I've said it from day 1 of the season.

There's no balance in our midfield.

Lucas is the controller, that's fine.
Gerrard is the DLP, again that's fine.
Who's the number 10 or CAM???

Allen and Henderson are both central midfielders and can't play that role. Henderson does okay but he's no threat to the opposition.
Moses and Aspas are not CAMs/number 10s.

by Red Alert Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:48 am

Oh, and Jefe, we're going in circles and we're never going to agree with each other so there's no real point in replying to that post...

by El Jefe Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:01 pm

Difference of opinions. I'm happy to leave it there.

by Red Alert Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:30 am

Just to be clear, I was face palming Aquilani's injury record with us...

by Helmer Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:08 pm

BR is spolied by the choice of the players really. He used to play a good team football when he was at Swansea, troubling the midfields of even top teams. But he seems to have forgotten that football, I am not saying replacating the exact style of play because we naturally dont have the same elements as of their midfield. But the Swansea results were based on the whole team playing some neat football by exchanging passes OR some times some good counter attacking football and not give the ball to front strikers and let them score.

by Red Alert Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:19 am

^ And that's exactly how we played all of last season; we played an attacking possession game.

I have no idea why he's changed his approach this season to play this counter-attacking crap away from home. We ship in so much goals away from home, and we've lost so much valuable points. How can't he see that it just isn't working?

by Nishankly Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:46 am

GERRARD+COUTINHO+STURRIDGE..SUAREZ BANNED

GERRARD+STURRIDGE+SUAREZ.....COUTINHO INJURED

GERRARD+SUAREZ+COUTINHO.......... STURRIDGE INJURED

SUAREZ+COUTINHO.......BOTH GERRARD AND STURRIDGE INJURED...

/rant

by Red Alert Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:37 am

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/22049679

It's happened.

We weren't considered good enough for the Europa league after this game. We had 30 shots on target, and McCarthy had 15 saves. 64% possession too. The day I convinced Arq Downing was never good enough for Liverpool and that this "team balance" explanation fans gave was bollocks. :coffee:

by Helmer Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:30 pm

Nishank wrote:GERRARD+COUTINHO+STURRIDGE..SUAREZ BANNED

GERRARD+STURRIDGE+SUAREZ.....COUTINHO INJURED

GERRARD+SUAREZ+COUTINHO.......... STURRIDGE INJURED

SUAREZ+COUTINHO.......BOTH GERRARD AND STURRIDGE INJURED...

/rant

now it has become a part of our tactics and formations Proud

by Helmer Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:54 pm

Tactics and Formations - Page 11 14954411942_f7b3fe7185_o

guys look at that goal again...now just notice the movement of players, we have two lines of 4 and they have four players who are in advanced position. So in a closed space, it is almost 8 players of our team vs their 4 players. I mean numerically there shouldnt even a be chance creation for the opposite team, so conceding is like a crime for me.

1. Here we notice a complete lack of organization, may be it is BR's fault. It starts from Glen's small movement away from the goal, can any person explain me in simple words what was the need that GJ went that side. There is no frracking way on this earth to explain it. Right.

2. Then there is a gap between Lovren and GJ, so I wont say anything about Lovren's movement at all. Because he probably tried to fill the gap which was created by the great defender GJ, there by to track Tadic and get close to him and also push our defensive line.

3. We can clearly see that as soon as Lovren started moving forward to push the line, our other defenders are just static and dont respond to what Lovren is doing. And they simple dont push for it. So our whole defensive line is a mess and basically there is no cohesive effort to stay compact. He needed to do that since Tadic tried to get into the small gap between the defensive line and MF line.

4. Now when Tadic is moving Skrtel raises his hand for something, god knows what was that. But he can also push and make it one line of defense instead of this school-teen defending.

5. When Clyne has the ball, he is absolutely under no pressure. I dont understand why Sterling is simply backing off. So this whole movement could have been probably stopped just by simple pressing and sticking to the person who has the ball.

So i dont know if you guys realise this but problem is bigger than simply 'Lucas failed to track the run' or 'skrtel completely ball watching'. I know it is just 1 goal on the opening day of our current season but there is no doubt that there is lack of defensive structure, organisation, clear instructions (by coach), no principles about how to defend when defending deep. Lets see if we can improve on these aspects as the season goes; but BR has to take the responsibility about it than just simply blabbering in interview that goal came because we failed to track the run.

by Helmer Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:56 pm

OK just saw the wide man but other points are still true.

by Red Alert Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:16 am

Rodgers doesn't know how to set up defensively at all.

Lucas was 100% at fault for their goal for not tracking back.

Stop trying to blame Johnson and Skrtel here.

by Art Morte Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:05 pm

It's getting a bit crazy how much we're analyzing one conceded goal.

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